I’m saddened and disappointed by some of the replies I got. I suppose that despite my repetitive efforts I still failed to get my point across. Oh well, never mind, I’m sure patience and perseverance will eventually get me there. Now, nimbly sidestepping QL and enchantment’s little disagreement (they seem to be doing ok without my interruption) let me at once reply to Jmall, Baashe and most importantly, Viking! But, before I go into any great detail in replying to each point these brothers have raised, let me save myself (and you) a lot of time and effort by quoting Viking! quote:Originally posted by NGONGE: Let us face it, saaxib; we are not dealing with a woman who’s having a tantrum here. We’re dealing with someone who has the ability to mislead and, by our own idleness, is allowed to mislead. And with your help, her wicked words are given more fuel to run through the minds of Muslims browsing these pages. Herein lies the crux of the matter! Now, I’m sure you will not be too shocked if I told you that I posted the article on purpose. This sort of comment is what I was expecting to get and, disappointingly, this is what I got. I purposefully posted the article with no accompanying comments (other than asking if she’s talking sense and if violence is justifiable). The pregnant pause (as it were) was put there to see if my hunch was correct (which was). Kindly do not mistake this for some sort of self-satisfied boasting. It’s all about HER; she’s trying to plant seeds of doubt in our minds! But, Oh! We know her tricks and her manners! She’s not going to pull the wool over our eyes. We should not acknowledge, read or respond to her rubbish. In addition, she’s using blasphemy! She claims to be Muslim but is insulting our religion! How could we tolerate such a person? How could you sully your screen (and ours) with this garbage? Furthermore, why are you helping her spread her venom? The trouble is not with Islam; it’s with Muslims! (The song about potatoes and potatoes springs to mind here). Some of the above were some of the comments made in response to this topic and the article (maybe not exact comments but I’m sure you get the jest of it). Now, to return to the quote by Viking above, he wonders why I’m helping her spread her wicked words! I personally believe the reply to that comment to be obvious (no sarcasm intended). However, having covered my back with the last comment, let me explain why I do so. I posted her article because I was very sure that people here will (after a few initial protests) refute all her points and challenge the opinions contained in that article. The hope was that it would be done for the sake of those browsing these pages. I still believe that such a scenario will develop in the coming few pages (not necessarily as a result of any cajoling from my side).

** Starts to juggle **

^^^ It's not a real story

^^ I'll give you two years, saaxib. Soon, some innocent looking woman will entrap you, marry you and rearrange you life. You’ll be as accommodating and harmless as me PS Did you see Xaaji checkmate waxa ku dhacay? His training is so advanced; he’s even been given the title ‘Isra’s dad’. Wax “isxeji†la yedhahdo ma jiran, resistance is futile. Ayaayo, dee naga delete garay waxan. :rolleyes:

^^^ This was supposed to be a one-sided phone conversation. It must be just me then that eavesdrops on other people’s conversations. The best thing about mobile phones (though I dislike the silly invention) is that such conversations help you pass the time when in a tedious train journey. As you can see above, although I’ve written only one part of that phone conversation, it was very easy to work out what the person on the other side was saying. I agree, I am weird. Delete it, delete it. :mad:

Viking, you seem to be arguing from the point that this article was written by a feminist, lesbian and ’reformed’ Muslim. Therefore, you’re unwilling to read or agree with such a person! At the risk of sounding like a broken record, let me repeat myself and remind you that this lady claims to speak for you and me. She’s spreading her own version of Islam, one that you find blasphemous and disgusting but rather ignore than tackle! This is very unlike you, saaxib! I’m getting the impression that you’re equating the posting of her article on this site or even the initiation of a discussion on such an article as a straightforward endorsement of such nonsense! The blasphemy point seems to trouble you too! Again, are you not residing in the West? Do you not encounter such blasphemous utterances everywhere you go? One would have thought you would be resistant to such claptrap by now, saaxib (note, I say resistant and not tolerant). I will get back to the argument about the demonstrations in a minute, but first I want to carry on stressing how risky it is to look right through people like Ms Manji! You see, this lady (and all those I’ve mentioned above – plus the ones classique added) all usually start off with valid criticism of Islam before they go on to spread their own schemes! In the case of this particular lady, she started off by making the legitimate point about violence in Islamic protest. She may have spoken about the riots in Afghanistan and Pakistan, but are such spontaneous instances worth writing a whole article about? Is the point she’s making one about the desecrating of the Koran and people’s reaction to it, or is she hinting at the wider manifestations of violence in Muslim affairs? You’re obviously safe from her enchanting rhetoric, you already loathe the woman and this loathing is shielding you from her occasional valid queries! But, what about those with less knowledge than you? They see the violence perpetrated in the name of Islam. They see the kidnapping of civilians, the bombing of property and the attacks on everyday people in the name of Islam! They wonder about the sanity, legitimacy and fairness of it all! They then get Ms Manji trying to wheedle her way into the argument by decrying the violent culture of Islam! She rightfully criticises the tendency of Muslims to use violence at the mere hint of an insult! Let us face it, saaxib; we are not dealing with a woman who’s having a tantrum here. We’re dealing with someone who has the ability to mislead and, by our own idleness, is allowed to mislead. You say that the scholars are speaking up and dealing with such violence. You mention their dispute about suicide bombing! But, how do such disputes and disagreements help you and me (never mind someone that lacks basic knowledge and is trying to understand and learn)? When I mentioned all the groups in my first post (Salafi’s, etc) I did not do so to decorate my piece or show that I recognise the names of some Islamic groups. I did so to highlight the confusion and division! An unnecessary division between groups that, more or less, agree on most things! Yet, because of such division, people like Ms Manji are able to stand up and speak for all Muslims. What makes this even more exasperating is that most those in the know only shrug, refer to her sexual orientation and assume that EVERYONE else can also see right through her. On the odd occasion that someone decides to challenge her stance, hardly any elucidation is employed. Rather, they invite one to refer to the Koran and Sunna! Even then, such a good answer is not given its just dues. Instead, they use words and expressions that would confuse the hell out of your average layman. Then we get the infamous hadeeth about the 73 sects! On many occasions, surprisingly enough, that hadeeth is used to excuse the existence of people like Ms Manji! Now, to return to the demonstrations and the benign way you chose to portray them! The violence was the fault of the puppets of America (Muslims are they not?), violence amongst Muslims started with Mucawiyah (what’s that got to do with the price of fish?). You’re trying to make it sound normal, saaxib. Why? Do you agree with it? As for your claim that the Imams speak about these issues all the time, well, I beg to differ. It’s not often that one comes across an Imam that speaks about such things or tackles such people. I suspect that most are adopting your way of looking at things: she’s a secular-gay-activist and one should not waste their breath on reading or responding to any of her drivel.

You are now a hardliner! [big Grin] All of the sudden you are now sure that Garowe and Las Caano don't belong together! Hek, you don't even think there is a reason to discuss or as you put it "sell" the idea of Somaliland to other Somalis (it’s okay to sell it to foreigners to attain recognition). I thought we already exhausted the topic of Las Caanod in the thread we had a couple of months ago, saaxib. The jury is still out on that one. These, and I’m sure you’ll agree with me here, are mere border disputes. Whether they’re part of Somaliland doesn't negate the main argument for the existence of Somaliland. I’m not impartial to this debate at all. I am a Somalilander! I’ve always maintained that I had no emotional attachment to Somaliland, and I still don’t. If I wave the flag, then I don’t wave it out of faith in those that run that place, sentimental reasons or out coercion. I grudgingly wave the flag now because I genuinely believe the union is no more. I see no benefit whatsoever in being part of the federal government. Having said all of that, I’m also not very impressed with the direction Somaliland is taking or the way it always attempts to justify itself. If disagreeing with both sides (on different issues) makes me impartial, then impartial I am, saaxib. Clannisim, as I already stated in my earlier post is part and parcel of the Somali attitude. It is pointless to argue that Somaliland is using clan politics when the whole of Somalis does so! It really IS not much of an argument, saaxib. As for the swan dance about history and grievances, without wanting to waste too many words on these, I only refer you to the last 14 years of Somaliland’s existence, saaxib. These same reasons and arguments have been used for 14 years now and if the situation stays as it is, they’ll be used for another 14! Time, you see, renders many arguments obsolete. These are facts, realities on the ground as Mr Bush would say. No matter how many arguments one uses to dispute them, these facts remain saaxib. Wouldn’t you agree? “Baashe, I do wish you would drop the clannish arguments from this discussion, saaxib. It really does not become youâ€. This is in answer to the first of your two points. You’re not naked, but the towel was almost slipping. Remember the argument you had about the word ‘circular’, well clannish arguments, as you’re perfectly aware, become circular after a while. His ‘defeated lot’ and your ‘ motivated by one clan’ though not of the same strength are from the same swamp, saaxib. As for the second point, I agree that optimism is great and that people work to attain their dreams. However, with all the problems in Somalia proper, how much work is being done (or is possible to do) to keep the unity? How soon could it all be sorted? In a year as the current president of the TFG claimed? In two? Three? How long? When is the dream going to become a reality? And, when it does, how soon will the new government turn its attention to Somaliland? How long will the world turn Somaliland’s quest for recognition down for? See the difficulties of fulfilling this dream at all, saaxib? Be honest here now. As things stand, which is the harder dream to achieve? Your final question, believe it or not, is one of the main reasons why I finally made up my mind about Somaliland. It really has no other option but to succeed.

Originally posted by Jmaal11: NGONGE if you honestly want the 'valid' questions (or points) she raises to be discussed, then why don't you do us the service of disecting such non-blasphemous questions and post them, in debatable form? But if you post blasphemous articles, without atleast editing them, no matter who the author is, they are likely to be deleted, as this goes contrary to the rules of the site. Blasphemy is not freedom of expression, and Irshad Manji is wellknown to use blasphemy to gain attention to her writings. It is necessary to have that in mind. PS: I am sure that if your interests are pragmatic discusions, they would be dealt with satisfactorilly. With all due respect saaxib, why do we act as if we’re all tucked away safely back home in Somalia or in a predominantly Muslim country, where we’re shielded and protected from hearing any such blasphemous opinions? This article was printed in a national British newspaper! A newspaper that can be accessed online (for those that are not in the UK)! Do we not read newspapers? Do we not watch TV? Do we not work, live amongst and interact with non-Muslims? How many people on this site watched or read reviews about the movie ‘The Passion of Christ’? How about ‘Bruce Almighty’ (for the frivolous amongst us)? I understood the rules of the site to relate to someone deciding to have a random rant and insulting Islam for the sake of doing so! Now, though we all suspect this lady to be engaged in such an activity, she by virtue of writing this article in a ‘serious’ newspaper, is attempting to pass it off as a genuine piece of journalism! Does it come as a great shock to you then when I post her article here for discussion (editing it would be pointless, saaxib)? Like I said, this article is available online and was printed on Friday’s edition of The Times Newspaper! My original point still stands, Jamal! If we keep deleting such articles and refuse to discuss them because they go against the ‘rules’ of the site; if other Muslim sites refuse to acknowledge the existence of such hogwash because it contains sacrilege and blasphemy, who exactly is going to reply to such people? The Imam on the Jumca prayers is probably too busy telling us about Seerat Ibn Hisham to worry himself with such people as Ms Manji! You see, I believe rules are put there for a reason. I agree with such rules. However, sometimes, I believe the rules are enforced prematurely. If the inclusion of blasphemy in an article is used for the simple purpose of shock and provocation then fine, it should be deleted. If the deletion of such profanity would not influence the message of the piece then ok, it also should be deleted! However, when such nonsense is the building block of the article, when its inclusion gives a feel of the author’s thinking and message, deleting will only serve to stifle the intended discussion. We don’t reside in Mecca or Medina (or even Xamar), well most of us don’t anyway. We’re not fortunate enough to have an official governmental censorship that protects our sensibilities from people like Ms Manji, Salman Rushdie or Ayaan Hirsi! We can pretend to replicate such censorship on this site, but frankly, that would defeat the whole purpose. I know and you know that this lady is an ignorant publicity seeker. We can easily see that in her writing. However, why do we assume that everyone else knows that? Why do we assume that when people read her questioning of our holy book they would not start to wonder about the correctness of her logic? Viking, your argument in regards to the demonstration leaves a lot to be desired, saaxib. The point she’s making was that Muslims KILLED Muslims! We can argue about semantics, background, reasons or even excuse it by comparing it to China and other countries all day, saaxib. The fact still remains that in this case, Muslims did kill Muslims. They attacked and destroyed Muslim property (not to mention Aid agencies). Are you trying to justify such acts? Though I disagreed with everything that woman wrote in her article, this was one point I could not bring myself to disagree with. She told a truth. Earlier you said that “most Muslims see the hypocrisy she shows everytime she opens her mouth and don't give her more publicity that she gets from her occidental mentors.†How do you know that most Muslims do saaxib? How do you guarantee that many Muslims will not fall for her “logic� After all, you have not even bothered to tackle her! Why do you have the need to discuss the problems faced by Muslims from the point of view of someone who can hardly be referred to as Muslim? Do you want to stir an angry reaction or to initiate proper discussions where ideas/views are exchanged? If it's the latter, then there are better ways to approach this than give a blasphemous gay activist more attention. I have no need to discuss anything from her point of view, saaxib. Had I seen anyone addressing these issues I would have used their articles instead, alas Ms Manji was all that I could find. Again, she claims to be a Muslim and she’s talking on your and my behalf. You strike me as someone that rejects her ideas yet never sees the need to contest them! What gives, saaxib?

Are you going to delete this or what? :mad:

^^^ Got to go home in a minute. Will try to reply later tonight.

^^^Et Tu, Ayaayo? Delete it, delete it.

^^^ I'm kidding bro. Just teasing these girls

wat i don't get is wat are u achiving by posting this articles,.... it is not educational in terms of islam, for a person with a lack of knoledeg in islam it may not only confuse them, but if they adopt and implement things frm the article u posted, its a mischif that u have spreaded and u will be questioned for it on the day of judgement. I aim to cause mischief, my dear. This is why I’m posting this on the general section and not the Islam section. Now loosen your hijab a little and give me a reply other than the usual stuff.

I’m not too sure. It sounds like a phone conversation. Do you want to delete it? Go ahead, delete it! That’s all you guys are good for these days. Delete it, delete it. See if I care. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Zephyrine: ^What's the meaning of this? I say, you're getting on my last nerve! Are you feeling ok?

Hello! What are you angry about now? I only said hello? He was a friend from school, ffs! Are you jealous from a guy in the pub? But I’ll never see him again, babe! Of course I don’t get jealous when you talk to other girls What? That’s not the same thing! That’s cheating! I didn’t cheat on you. Are you being serious? Well, if you go ahead with it, consider our relationship over. Fine. Have a nice life. Bye. **************** Hello! Why did he phone you? No, he dumped me! He got jealous of John. Exactly. Well, I’m not going to make the first move. He’s acting like a real twat these days. I’m really better of without him. He had the cheek to tell me that he’s going to ask this girl that he works with out! He says that’s how we’ll be equal! Yeah, I know, he’s very childish. Naah, I think I’m seriously better off without him. Can I call you back later? He’s phoning me again! NO. Don’t worry; I’ll make him beg before I have him back. Ok. Will do. Bye. ******************************* Hello! Hmmmm. Well, you were being unreasonable The guy came over to say hi, did you want me to just ignore him? Well, yeah. No, it’s not the same. It didn’t sound like you were teasing me. No, it didn’t. It sounded like you meant it. You’re free to go out with anyone you like. No, really, just ask her out. I’m not upset. No I’m not. There is nothing to forgive. Ok. What time? Fine, but first I’ll have to go to my Mum’s. No I’m not upset. Hmmmm. Of course I love you, you dev. Bye. Love you too. Bye. Yeah, I will. Bye, babe. *************************** Hello No, we’re fine now. He apologised. Oh bless him. He’s been under a lot of pressure lately. No, he’s not possessive at all. Yeah, he’s just stressed out. You know I couldn’t dump him. I love him too much to dump him. Yeah, I’m glad that we’ve sorted it. I know. By the way, thanks for listening. I really don’t know how I would have coped without you. You’re one in a million, darling. No, no, you really listened when I needed you. Hmm? He keeps saying that you’re his best friend too. You’re my best friend too now. What? NO! Don’t tell him that we spoke. He’ll get jealous and might have a fight with you. I know. All right darling? Thanks for listening. Bye. ************************* Hello? What? I was talking to, erm, my mum. On her mobile! What? Listen, my battery is running out......

I notice that my last topic has been deleted! For what reason I wonder! For those unaware of the topic I’m speaking of, it was the one about the desecrating of the Koran and the resulting riots in Pakistan and other parts of the Muslim world. The article that was deleted was by one Irshad Manji (the author of the book titled The Trouble With Islam). This lady claims to be a Muslim (I’m not sure if any of you agree with that claim). Anyway, on the basis of such a claim, she saw fit to write an article in a national British newspaper about the recent riots and demonstrations! Not wanting to disappoint her many detractors, she unnecessarily (in my opinion) added a bit of a commentary about the Koran and pointed out some ‘imperfections’! I believe this last part is what led the moderators to delete this topic. Those that read the article were probably shocked, disgusted and puzzled as to the reasons that led me to post such an amazing piece of trash on this site! From the few replies that I read, I was astonished to find most people dismissing the author and her sexual orientation instead of tackling the good (yes good) points she raised in that article! Nowadays, there are many keepers of our faith. The Salafis are doing a sterling job; the Tableegh boys can’t be faulted for effort; Ahlu-Ul-Sunna chip in with their valuable contributions; the Egyptian Brotherhood (and all their splinter movements) deserve to be commended for much of the work they do. One can go on and praise every single group out there; alas the aim here is not to bore you with lists. The real aim was to show that there are countless groups that speak, rightly or wrongly, in the name of Islam! Irshad Manji, Ayaan Hirsi, Ibn Waraq, Yasmin Ali-Bahi-Brown and a dozen other nonentities all claim to be the keepers of our faith too! The recent British general elections even had George Galloway speaking on our behalf! Then there was the IMPAC campaign to encourage Muslims to vote and the Hezb-Ut-Tahrir campaign to discourage Muslims from voting! The first list (the one with the Salafis et al) is not, for now, a serious problem. Thankfully, all these groups seem to be in agreement on most of the major Islamic issues (how short are your trousers or long is your beard are, despite all their protestations, not major issues). The second list (Irshad Manji and her ilk) is the problematic one. Allow me to digress for a minute and exclude Hezb-Ut-Tahrir and IMPAC from that list, I only included them in this group because they all share the distinguishing quality of being Western! Irshad Manji, in her recent article to the Times newspaper, criticised the use of violence in Islamic protests! Her article was distasteful, offensive and blasphemous! She displayed her remarkable ignorance of the religion she claims to belong to! She questioned the Koran, questioned the Prophet and questioned the companions! However, as is the case with most of these ‘western’ keepers of our faith, she also highlighted a genuine and current failing in Muslim society. She asked a valid question about the justification of violence when protesting! I have not read her book but judging by some of the articles and TV interviews I saw, I’m almost certain that I would not enjoy reading it or find myself agreeing with most of it. However, I do agree with the title of the book, The Trouble With Islam! There is a problem with Islam, a huge and very complicated problem too. First of all, we have the problem of the Muslims in Muslim lands. These people demonstrate, riot and violently protest at the mere hint of an assault on Islam! As was evident in Afghanistan and Pakistan, the riots caused a lot of damage to life and property. No American soldiers, officials or citizens were hurt (not that this would change anything). Was there a point to such protest? Would it have made a difference to the issues at hand? Or were we punishing ourselves for our incompetence and inability to protect our faith? In spite of the anger the news of the defilement of our holy book produced in all our hearts, such rioting was idiotic, pointless and counterproductive. Such mindless action is what gives ‘experts’ such as Ms Manji the opportunity to speak on all our behalf’s! One wonders what are the scholars; intellectuals and sane people of the Muslim lands are busy with! Do they agree with such senseless madness? Is this the kind of Islam they preach? Secondly, we have the Muslims of the West. These ones disagree with and abhor people like Ms Manji! But, how many of them attempt to confront her and refute all her nonsense? How many are happy to brush her drivel aside and carry on with their normal lives? Here, sadly, the attitude is to ignore such people and hope they’ll go away. Meanwhile, such people become the spokespersons of the Muslim community in the West! This is not about who gets to speak to Westerners, this is about who gets coverage, airtime and publicity. It’s about whose message gets to the widest possible audience. Unfortunately, in the West at least, Ms Manji’s message is getting further than all of ours combined! Where her book is available in libraries and is being discussed on many websites (not many Islamic ones surprisingly enough), we suppress any questions, delete any articles and ignore all confusing messages! If someone asks the same questions that Ms Manji poses in her book (or article), they’re silenced, accused of blasphemy or insulted! The assumptions are that all Muslims already know the answers to most of these things and that those that don’t, only have themselves to blame (or at least that’s the impression given)! Even those that condescend to address such questions would usually deal out the same old replies that were not convincing enough first time round (when one was a kid) never mind now (when one is an adult)! There are many young and confused Muslims here in the Western world. Most of them are faced (daily) with new challenges, perplexing questions and a plethora of Muslim movements all vying for their attention! In addition, they’re confronted by the atheist and secular Western brigades! They’re bombarded with countless questions regarding the nature of god, the authenticity of the Koran, the meaning of faith, etc! Those fortunate enough to have knowledgeable family, friends or local Muslims around can, at least, easily (in comparison) wade through such an amazing sea of confusion. But, what about those that try to learn but never know what choice to make? What about the ones that ask questions but are turned down with all those holier-than-thou replies? Could such people be blamed for following the Irshad Manji version of Islam (she does claim to be a Muslim)? Now, if I happen to post another article by Ms Manji, will the moderators delete it again? Or will they (along with any other Nomads) try to contest all her arguments? Your reactions are what will show us if there is indeed a trouble with Islam.

Lol@Juma

ولما تلاقينا على سÙØ­ رامـة ..... وجدت٠بنـان العامريـة أحمـرا Ùقلت خضبت الك٠بعد Ùراقنا .... Ùقالت معاذ الله ذلك مـاجــــرا ولكنني لما رأيتك راحـــلاً .... بكيت دماً حتـى بللـت بـه الثـرا مسحت بأطرا٠البنان مدامعي .... Ùصار خضاباً بالأك٠كما تــرا

^^^ Apropos of nothing, there is a member in this site that goes by the name of Phil. He loves everything Indian. Now that you’ve confessed this little bit of information, I might as well tell you to expect a PM from him. My advice to you is to ignore him.

Afro, I see you too have questions . Same here! I asked simple questions about the wisdom behind the secession. I thought the whole thing, from the get go, was motivated by sheer clannism. You’ve heard the responses. They ranged from something akin to ‘it’s not your business’ to ‘u are jealous that we made it’...and something in between. Every now and then you hear some emotional outburst that equates serious or critical discussions on the issue to hate and envy! Not all of the proponents of this side are that childish. In fact some have presented their thoughts as to why they justify the secession. So far they didn’t demonstrate enough reasons why the parts of what used to be British Somaliland has to secede. Before I refute what our friend Mr. Tolstoy had to say about the issue let me say a word or two to the ones who have voiced different approach (no grievances or colonial legacy but rather something else that can differentiate Togdheer from Soul or Garowe) that articulates why parts of that corner of the country belong together and not to Somalia. I suspect the only reasonable argument there is what Northerner had alluded to namely the political impasse of Somalia and difficult of finding a common ground for the divergent interests of the Southern leaders (let alone the interest of the North westerners) is very difficult to reconcile. Therefore, this line of reasoning seems to be saying that since the current political problems is so difficult to solve, out of desperation the country should be dismembered for the time being. Very interesting line of thinking I must say. I don’t agree with that but it’s a very dignifying way of making the case for the secession. Baashe, I do wish you would drop the clannish arguments from this discussion, saaxib. It really does not become you. I’m sure, having read the historical narrative you’ve written as a reply to Tolstoy, that you’re a man who knows his history (not that I fully believe either version of course). I’m convinced that you already know that for every clannish motive on one side there is an equal drive on the other. It would be mad to point at Tolstoy’s nakedness when you yourself are donning your birthday suit, wouldn’t you say? The clannish argument is really redundant here. We should all tacitly accept its presence and move on into discussing whatever needs talking about. To keep referring to it in every discussion is nothing but a cheap way at scoring points. Was your aim to score points or were you genuinely concerned for the general welfare of Somalia (and as a consequence of your belief in one Somalia, Somaliland)? I’m sure you’ve read all my exchanges with my fellow Somalilanders on this thread and others in the past few days. I view most of their rhetoric in the same way I view yours and Wind-talkers. You embrace an idea without, judging by the evidence, giving it much thought. You all seem to have made a decision to choose a side and went on convincing yourself, and others, that this decision is the correct one! But, is it? I’m really not convinced by your argument. You’re denying the Somaliland people their right to choose their fate on the basis of very weak and superficial reasons: They’re being clannish They’re dividing Somalia They’re basing it on grievances They have no right to secede History says.. Etc..etc.. I could go on to dismantle all those reasons and show you how pointless and blinkered they all are. However, I believe you’re bright enough to do that yourself. So, as an exercise in self-examination, I invite you to play devil’s advocate here and reveal all the faults in your contention (if nothing else, it will help strengthen your future deliberations on the subject). I find myself in the curious position of objecting to both sides. On the one hand, I vehemently oppose the lack of clarity of Somaliland proponents; the apparent insufficiency of direction and confidence is wearisomely exasperating. On the other hand, I also fiercely (though never were in the past) dispute the wisdom behind a one Somali Republic. Somali political discussion is in dire need of a touch of reality. This way of referring back to history at every given opportunity and attempting to prove and disprove current positions is dishonest and, frankly, no way to conduct any kind of debate. The total conviction in one’s cause is admirable, only when one really understands the cause! I’m afraid, that other than Tolstoy (who lets his passion get the better of him) not many taking part in this discussion really know or understand why they take the positions they have. Where I’ll, rightfully I believe, rebuke Tolstoy is in his romantic, navel-gazing and tediously historical reasoning when trying to sell the Somaliland case. After 14 years of de facto independence, there should be no reason to do any selling to the opponents of Somaliland. Time to utilise your selling skills at home, saaxib. For as you’re clearly aware, not many know why they support Somaliland! Some people like to live in dreams, they’re safer, feel nicer and one really does not have to make any major decisions (not even if the dream is a nightmare). Many Somaliland citizens live such a dream. Many have convinced themselves that the declaration of independence on the 18th of May was an end of an era and that whatever followed/ follows is Somaliland history (not Somalia). This dream of course, might become a reality and these comments of mine will then become pointless. That all depends on the attainment of recognition! This is when the dreamers can proudly say that what I viewed as mere sandcastles were really towering buildings! (If you don’t understand this point, I’ll advice you to read any of the historical narratives written by Tolstoy, Baashe, et al). For the hard work and sacrifice of the many, I do hope that such a dream becomes a reality. Likewise with those opposing Somaliland! The dream is much better than the reality. Despite all evidence, they still believe that Somalia will finally become peaceful, the countless parts of the warring jigsaw will finally fit and Somaliland will miraculously come back to the fold again! Is this the reality though? Are the obstacles that simple to overcome? Can Somalia (the one with the TFG) finally sort itself out, reach a workable and peaceful understanding, discard all the hatred and mistrust, rebuild its institutions and woo Somaliland back (or even force it back)? A practical and pragmatic person would conclude that this is very unlikely. They’ll hope, judging by the evidence again, that Somalia (TFG) manages to sort itself out and construct some semblance of a working government. He’ll tell you that such a government will need a long time to get its basic act together, time for Somaliland to gallop ahead with it’s own agenda! He’ll tell you that even when Somalia is ready to reclaim Somaliland, the opportunities for division, disruption and sabotage on both sides will be limitless! A dreamer on the other hand, never allows these things to interfere with his vision. Events, signs, facts or obstacles don’t matter to him unless they serve to further his dream and give it legitimacy! If not, they’re discarded, ignored or rejected! Of course, I realise that I’m, as usual, urinating against the wind and that half of what I write makes no sense to any here. But, should I give up? Read and not take part while convincing myself that Somalis will always be Somalis? I prefer to point at your nakedness (all of you) instead and sneer. Maybe, just maybe you’ll finally decide to cover up (I’m fully dressed by the way). :cool:

^^^ You’re making me work here, saaxib. How do you want to debate it? From what angle? Do you think Abu Mazen will finally manage to achieve what Abu Amaar (Yasir Arafat) could not? What do you think about the Wall? The withdrawal of the Israelis and the Road Map?