Heh. Glad to have got you at each other’s throats (though I expected it to be boys against girls, to be honest). It really does not matter if wives work or stay home. Each couple will make their decisions according to their life styles, background, beliefs and personalities. The important thing here, which we all take for granted is that we have the privilege to ponder such decisions! We can shout and pout when anyone suggests that ‘we’ should behave ourselves and be dutiful housewives! We can even refuse! Similarly, we can go out and work in any field. We can look down on house wives and advice them to stop depending on someone else for their income! In both cases, people around us might disagree with us but they will not think us mad for having these views and ideas. This is a benefit that we all should be grateful for having. Things could have been so much different, our wives might have needed to prostitute themselves (god forbid) to feed us. Our husbands might have needed to sell themselves into slavery in order for us to survive. We could have lived in a society that actively and forcibly blocks women from working (regardless of the reasons for working)! It could have been a society where women that air their opinions in support of working women are ostracised and humiliated. Fortunately, we don’t live in such societies and are free to make informed choices about the way we live our lives. Some women choose to be housewives! It’s their prerogative really.

Though this is an accurate and highly amusing caricature of scenes that regularly take place in many Somali coffee shops, sadly, the author is no less guilty of the crime (of misunderstanding intellectualism) as his own subjects! At first, one assumed the author was using the term ‘intellectuals’ to mock these smug characters. Indeed, as he went on describing their habits and ways of thinking, this assumption began to prove its accuracy. The mastery of languages, memorising of quotes and historical occurrences, though found in the armoury of most intellectuals, are not the main traits one uses when bequeathing the crown of intellectualism to anyone! The author fell into a trap of his own making when he spoke about the college graduates from Italy, the Soviet Union and Arab countries! This is not a reply on which I set out to criticise the author and point out the chinks in his armour. Far from it, I found the piece very readable and, as I’ve already stated, highly amusing. However, before I continue showering him with praise, let us help him out of the aforementioned trap. The mention of graduates from non-English speaking countries seemed to tacitly imply that not all Somali intellectuals are the products of Western education (a very fair point). However, along with that argument, came the suggestion that college graduates are intellectuals! The author writes very well and conveys his ideas clearly, therefore I find it difficult to extend him the benefit of a poetic licence and assume that his meaning was anything but what I’ve suggested above. There was no need to include these ‘other’ graduates in the topic, other than to advance the argument that they too (graduates from Italy, etc) are intellectuals! That anyone that graduates from college (university) is considered an intellectual is a very popular and widespread belief in many parts of the world. However, is it true? Would the university degree one attains play a part in deciding if they’re intellectuals or otherwise? Can a Doctor (such as the one mentioned in the story) claim to be an intellectual purely because he’s a doctor? How about the Engineer? Is intellectualism a matter of educational competence? Better still, is it a case of FORMAL educational competence? One rather suspects that intellectualism demands more than mere university degrees and college education. In fact, this was the main reason for replying to this topic. People spend all their lives constructing barriers, rules, beliefs and laws that eventually dictate how their lives should be lived and how problems can be tackled. One of these unquestioned laws is that a person with university education knows more than one without. Of course, such a premise is probably more likely to be true when the subject being discussed is the one that this person attained his college degree in. However, when the subject is one that neither side has formally studied, one would assume that both are as knowledgeable (or ignorant) as each other. Here the ‘well-read’ person will, probably, be the one that’s likely to ‘know’. Alas, nowadays, seldom does one encounter many ‘well-read’ university graduates (or non-graduates of course). Still, even those that are ‘well-read’ can not be considered intellectuals unless it’s been proven by their words and actions. One can read the works of all the philosophers, memorise the quotes of all the greats and habitually quote witty sayings, but as Voltaire once said, they prove nothing! Quotes, sayings and even other people’s philosophical theories are simply the decorations that one uses to adorn one’s own arguments and thoughts. An intellectual is akin to a master chef. Like everyone else, the ingredients he uses are widely available, the cutlery and cooking appliances are not hard to obtain and, even recipes can be found in many books. However, his own talent is what distinguishes him from other average cooks. Those sampling his offerings need not be cooks to attest to his ability. Having said all of the above, allow me to confuse you by saying that non of it really matters here. The subject at hand is one concerning Somali intellectuals. This wretched group of people is burdened with impossible expectations and incompatible demands. Somalis look up to their intellectuals for solutions (here I’m using the Somali understanding for the world intellectual - i.e. university graduate). However, most of the urgent Somali problems are not ones of vision, ideology and foresight (though there is a great breach there too). Somalia’s problems are practical in nature and need practical solutions. In spite of this, like Dr. Mohamed in the story above, Somalis, almost always, approach their ‘intellectuals’ for solutions to pragmatic problems! Many a Somali would sit eagerly at the feet of a tribally motivated ‘intellectual’ and obediently gobble up eloquently put arguments and justifications to simply solved problems (just like the story above)! Fifteen years of sitting in coffee shops and imparting these ‘intellectual’ solutions have not, yet, managed to dry out this great well of knowledge. Still, Somali intellectuals are not completely useless. They’re the journalists, educators, pundits and commentators of the nation. Their views and ‘solutions’ do matter and add to the richness of the social, political and economic discourse. They’re not the pragmatic leaders but merely the mandarins, and thus should they be viewed! That their efforts are sub-standard, their contributions unsatisfactory and prejudices highly evident, is simply a symptom of the inherent decay of this rudderless and headless nation. Again, this was an interesting and amusing story to read. Looking forward to more satirical portraits from Mr Gaildon.

Poor Oprah

LONDON (Reuters) - Married men earn more than bachelors so long as their wives stay at home doing the housework, according to a report on Wednesday from Britain's Institute for Social and Economic Research (ISER). Academics Elena Bardasi and Mark Taylor found that a married man whose wife does not go out to work but is primarily responsible for the cooking and cleaning earns about 3 percent more than comparably employed single men. But that wage premium disappears if wives go out to work themselves or don't do most of the housework. "It has been fairly well documented that married men earn more than single men," Taylor, a labour economist, told Reuters. "However, our research established the wage premium is related to the wife doing the chores," said the academic who teaches at the University of Essex. He said analysis suggests there could be two explanations for the results: A marriage might allow a husband and wife to focus their activities on tasks to which they are most suited. Traditionally, this would result in the man concentrating on paid work enabling him to increase productivity and in consequence his wages. Taylor said another explanation could be that marriage may increase the amount of time a man has to hone work-related skills which could trigger higher wages. Taylor and Bardasi analysed the hourly wages of 3,500 men who have been interviewed annually since 1991 as part of the British Household Panel Survey. "We looked at all types of jobs from unskilled up to managers and professionals," Taylor said. Source

The US has accused Saudi Arabia and three allied Gulf states of practicing a new form of human slavery with its migrant labor population. While the majority of workers are not abused, it is certainly evident that the treatment of some migrant workers is appalling in the Peninsula and it is not too extreme to accuse those who partake in this trade as modern day slave traders. The US moral stance is appropriate (if somewhat hypocritical given problems with Mexican and other migrant workers -- although the abuses are not comparable in terms of the scope and scale of abuse), but much more needs to be done to curtail this peculiar institution. First, the Gulf states and Saudi Arabia rightfully deserve to be condemned and publicly censured by the entire international community for not acting to curtail this new form of slavery. Saudi Arabia abolished slavery in 1962 and hence has no religious or legal defense for permitting such activity. The problem however is not just the inhumane conditions and blatant violations of basic human rights. The entire concept of guest workers needs to be reworked in these countries. In Saudi Arabia, migrant workers apparently need a sponsor (a kafeel) who earns money merely for filing paperwork with the state. The sponsor need not be the actual employer of the laborer. This form of "rentier slavery" is morally repugnant as it steals hard earned income from the world's poorest people to fatten those who do not labor and take no risks. The abolition of this system in favor of a simplified and standardized state regulated green-card system would go a long way toward terminating the new slavery. Second, the sending countries need to be heavily criticized for not doing more to protect their citizens. Although states, like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia, and Indonesia, benefit immensely from the remittances of the "coolie underclass", they are unwilling to mount a vigorous defense of their own people. The sending countries should not hesitate to put the host states on public notice of the diplomatic consequences if they abuse their citizens. Moreover, the beheading of migrant laborers in secret trials without the provision of consular assistance, is a serious breach of international law and human rights. Host countries, particularly Saudi Arabia, should be warned and publicly rebuked for such reprehensible and criminal behavior. Sending countries should also properly warn their citizens before allowing them to go to countries that are known for practicing this form of slavery and deceptive labor practices. Moreover, the corrupt "handlers" who deliver the laborers to the slave owners should be prosecuted within sending countries for fraud and human trafficking. Third, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf countries need to be held morally responsible for global poverty which their own policies in the seventies helped to exacerbate. If the aim of the Arab oil embargos was to punish Western countries for supporting Israel, then compensation should have been given from the oil revenues to those developing countries which could not adjust to oil price spikes. It was these oil shocks that dealt the final coup de grace to the faltering Bretton Woods system and ultimately began a cycle of petro-dollar recycling which would result in the developing country debt crisis of the eighties. This may be history now, but its effects are still felt today. While there is a great deal of pressure on the G8 countries for debt relief there is almost no pressure on the oil rich countries to do more to assist the rest of the developing world. Western NGO groups must target Saudi and the Gulf countries in their debt relief campaigns as they are also a major source of global poverty and inequality. Easing poverty in the poorest countries would help to alleviate some of the desperation that moves men into bondage. Foreign Exchange - Vikash Yadav

^^^What a peculiar question! What exactly was your goal when you replied to this topic, saaxib? Were you interested in having a debate? Was it pointless chatter? Or was there another unknown reason behind your participation? Quoting the word ‘hallow’ and hinting at the author’s view being ‘personal’ gave the impression that you were in disagreement with his arguments! Are you with me so far? Here is where you have to step up and provide a counter argument. If this is not the case and you were merely pointing out words and comments for your own amusement rather than as part of the debate, I’m afraid you haven’t done a good job of it. But, rather ended up giving the impression of cautiously dipping the odd toe in, instead of wading into the debate and clarifying your position. Most peculiar indeed!

^^^ Both these works are available on the Niche Library. Ibn Taymiyyah uses the language of logic by calling christian beliefs "illogical", "contradictory" and "impossible". Logic, according to the Sheikh of Islam, only applies to other religon. Islam need not be logical at all. The quote above is what you’re referring to. To my mind, it’s a perfectly clear statement. After all, the author started this thread to berate Muslims that apply logic when refuting other beliefs while they themselves reject that same logic when it questions their own contradictory beliefs! He drew our attention to an issue of great dispute in Islamic theology, a topic that has been addressed by many scholars and philosophers (it really is not Mutakalim’s invention, saaxib). I’ll admit my failing here and hold my tongue from taking part in the actual debate. Still, it will be highly entertaining, amusing and educational to watch others attempting to crush the author’s contention and presenting us with another (fairly logical) point of view. This, I would hope, is what the Camel Milk Debate section is all about. According to your personal understanding? What if the understanding of the many about Ibn Taymiyyah and his works is different from yours? For those who aren't familiar with Ibn Taymiyyah and his works, you have already decided for them that his is hollow; what's the logic of going into details about shall tell you? Logic dictates hollow should be sufficient. You do have an endearing habit of stating the obvious, saaxib. Right now, and on the strength of his previous posts on this topic, his ‘personal view’ is the only logical thing on this thread. Care to challenge it?

Second reply, second word

Can you get the halal version of Debbie Does Dallas, saaxib?

Originally posted by Yusufaddie: In a world were the muslim lands are united under one amir and honour and prosperity returns to muslims, were do you think Somalia would be? fighting amongst themselves, refusing to join? what? It will be invaded, conquered and forced to submit to the will of your so-called Amir. Could it be done any other way?

Originally posted by Abdi2005: I have video from my trip in 2000 to muqdisho. If some one is interested i will capture the video and put for download joust let me know. If other people have videos from somalia and want to share i can give them my username and password to my netpocket(10gb) so that he can upload the file and then every one can download. This is not too bad either (I think) Dropload.com As for the documentary, it was nice to see in as much as it showed pictures of Somalia. Geldof, like all Europeans worrying about their ‘white man burden’ before him, came across as very condescending and patronising. Still, such minor issues do not matter when our country is on TV. Did you see the great emptiness? That is the greatest empty space in the world. The beauty of those semiarid spaces and the symbolic border were breathtaking. Laas Qorey must have a great underground system.

Miracle lovers can check out this website: Knock yourself out I’ve recently stopped passing my e-mail address to first time acquaintances for fear of receiving such nonsense. In the past, I used to receive an endless number of e-mails with the title “please do not delete - See the miracles of Islamâ€. Out of curiosity, I’d, almost always, open the e-mail and eagerly try to view its content. What do I find? Pictures! We’re in an age where people want to see everything in order to believe. Even the most dogmatic of people, the ones that KNOW they are right and would tolerate no argument when it comes to the way they apply and practise their faith! They that forbid the use of cameras and photos; even they would join in this madness and start sending e-mails containing pictures of deformed cucumbers (with the deformity approaching, but not really matching, the name of the almighty!)! The rigidity knows no bounds. When told that Allah is everywhere, they set out to find him (and find they indeed do). They see the name of the almighty in vanishing clouds, in soon to be rotten melons, on the wool of sheep, on birth marks, on cracks on walls, on weather maps, on anything and everything that is out of the ordinary! Some gobble up such media out of a mistaken sense of duty (and in the hope of getting closer to god), while the majority of others do it out of guilt! Once upon a time, the popular belief was that even if you can’t see god, HE subhanahu wa ta’aala, Can see you! Now, with the help of some fanatical brothers and a bit of technology, we (far be it from being true) can see HIM! Hey akhi, don’t go forgetting your prayers, you’ll be punished, here have a look at this photo of a tomato if you don’t believe that Allah is everywhere! Hey sister, where is your hijab? Have you not seen the name of the prophet on plant Mars? Does one really need such pictures, questionable stories and guilt-ridden tales in order to believe in the oneness of the almighty? Even if this photo were true, what difference would it have made to you? Did we not believe before the photo? Were we not Muslims? Surely one couldn’t even argue that it would have strengthened our faith, for a weak faith is likely to be one concerned with slack devotion and waywardness rather than the questioning of the power of the creator! Still, in this age of speed, a take-away is the norm, not only in food but life in general, and now, even in faith! A picture paints a thousand words, they say. Therefore, why should one contemplate! (I recently received an SMS du’aa!). I would imagine that some of the thoughts that first crossed the minds of most people when they saw that photo was “is this true? Where does she live? Why is it not in the news? Why has this never happened before? Why did I never hear of such things taking place during my lifetime or that of my parents and their parents?†Most of the questions above would only lead to more questions about circumstances, situations, precedents and proofs! When awe finally arrives, it laughably and easily can be wiped away by the confirmation that this photo was, after all, a fake! Once one receives one too many of these ‘false’ miracles, god only knows what the state of one’s faith would resemble (my guess would be a squiggly cloud)! Those searching for miracles already know where to find them.. PS Waxa la yedhi, gabadh ayaa...........

I have always wondered why when men get married wey dhalaalaan, but when women get hitched they lose their sparkle and start looking haggard. Its probably because of this 'housewife' business. It’s because you’re a single girl and single girls, naturally, are on the look out for suitable husbands. I’m of course talking on a subconscious level and not pretending to be able to read your mind here. If we take away all the layers of civilisation and morals, the basic animalistic duty of a male is to impregnate as many women as he could possibly find. Females on the other hand, excluding black widows of course, are usually satisfied with the one viral stud. Once they find their stud, the necessity for blossoming is no more. Meanwhile, the stud will have to shine in order to attract more females to his pride. That’s probably why the men shine and the women look haggard. Though, strangely enough, only other females notice this ‘haggardness’!

Yes. The majority of Somali housewives are unemployed. Being a mother is not a job (in the traditional sense). Most Somali housewives are also, sadly, illiterate. Even if they’re released from their motherhood responsibilities, not many can obtain jobs (good jobs).

I understand and appreciate how some females would have strong feelings about the issue of rape (feelings I completely share). However, in this case, the accused was a Somali! Does that not count for anything? Does it not lessen your disgust and anger somewhat? With no victim to be had, no witness to be found, I consider it the height of unfairness to keep our fellow Somali in imprisonment. I hope that some other, like-minded individuals will see the injustice here and start petitioning their local members of parliament on our brother’s behalf. There is no point appealing to the feminists amongst you.

Choose battles? :eek: Is this a game to you?

^^^ This did not take place thousands of miles away. It was on your and my doorstep. We can’t afford to be indifferent when such injustices take place right under our noses. What if it’s me or you getting arrested tomorrow? What if they fabricate evidence against us too? Remember, no victim came forward. The alleged passer-by has also not come forward! Their whole case rests heavily on the dubious CCTV footage that they have. They also claim to have had a confession from the guy, but who would guarantee that he knew what he was confessing to? Who knows if he understood the severity of the charges levelled against him? The man has only been in the country for two years, I’ve met and spoke to Somalis who lived in London for forty years and still can’t speak English! Are you not moved by such an injustice? :mad:

^^^ You rampant feminists will stop at nothing! Have you no heart? The accused man is your countryman. Does that not bother you? Don’t you think it’s unfair? How dare you reduce such a grave case to a silly comparison with storms and teacups? I don’t make it a habit to insult those I disagree with, but if I ever were to make an exception, I would have called you a sell-out, Zephyrine

This story can’t possibly be true. It’s a white man conspiracy to disturb, degrade and give a bad name to London’s ever-growing Somali community. These saboteurs don’t understand Somali culture. They don’t understand that we bring our children up to follow certain rules and behave in certain ways. Our culture is far too strong and our children too wise to be easily infiltrated by these despicable Western practises such as rape, murder and theft. How can they prove that the man in the CCTV footage was our Somali brother? Normally such footage is in black and white and never clear. They say our brother has pleaded guilty; they must have tortured him into confessing! They’ve already done such things to our fellow Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan. They’re still doing it in Cuba! They can easily do it in London too. We should not sit back and let them treat our brother in such a way. We should rise up and demonstrate. We should lobby the government and demand that he be released. Not until the so-called victim materialises should our brother be put on trial. Not unless it’s proven that she’s of sound body and mind (with no previous convictions) should we allow the word RAPE to appear next to the word Somali in the same sentence! We have resided in London since 1914! Look how we’re being treated! We should produce placards and signs then leave them inside the tunnel under the Elephant and Castle roundabout. This is unacceptable and all true, patriotic and proud Somalis should express their revulsion and disgust at the way this brother has been treated. :mad:

^^^^ Heh. I fear you misunderstood my words, saaxib. The line in the poem that I alluded to (and you quoted) was not aimed at any of the poetic stanzas you’ve posted. I purely mentioned it so as Nomads don’t mistake my input as an agreement with Sheikh-el-Islam’s position. For to quote him as a defence for my argument will only go against his own assertion in the poem (قال الاخطل)! The topic, though stimulating and thought provoking, is also perilously thorny. The questions you’ve posed, whilst being valid and in desperate need of logical and rational answers, are not likely to receive proportionate treatment either way (agreement or rebuttal). My deficient and lax knowledge on the subject fills me with shame; therefore I shall not (for the time being) wade in with any half cooked arguments or instinctive viewpoints. It’s very possible that your opinion here is wrong. It’s also probable that the logic you speak of does have limitations. Still, you’ve stated your standpoint in an eloquent and coherent manner, yet, received the usual disparaging replies! Now, in order for this to become a real debate, those disagreeing with you will have to bring forth something more substantial than simple brush-offs. Alas, I suspect that none will be forthcoming and that your questions are not likely to ever be fully engaged on this site. Caution will always overrule curiosity, saaxib. As a result, while you wait for this debate to blossom, how about giving us (the ‘us’ is a royal one) a more detailed take on the subject at hand. That way, if no debate ever materialises, we’ll at least have your unchallenged lecture on the dialectics of enquiry in relation to this topic.

لامية شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية رحمه الله تعالى يا سَائÙلي عَنْ مَذْهَبÙÙŠ وعَقيدَتÙÙŠ رÙزÙÙ‚ÙŽ الهÙدى مَنْ Ù„ÙلْهÙداية٠يَسْأَل اسمَعْ كَلامَ Ù…ÙحَقّÙÙ‚Ù Ùـي قَولÙـه لا يَنْثَنـي عَنـه٠ولا يَتَبَـدَّل Ø­Ùبّ٠الصَّحابَة٠كÙلّÙÙ‡Ùمْ لي مَذْهَبٌ وَمَوَدَّة٠القÙرْبى بÙهـا أَتَوَسّـل ÙˆÙŽÙ„ÙÙƒÙلّÙÙ‡Ùمْ قَدْرٌ ÙˆÙŽÙَضْلٌ ساطÙعٌ لكÙنَّمـا الصّÙديـق٠مÙنْهÙـمْ Ø£ÙŽÙْضَـل وأÙÙ‚Ùرّ٠بÙالقÙرآن٠ما جاءَتْ بÙـهً آياتÙـه٠ÙÙŽÙ‡Ùـوَ القَديـم٠المÙنْـزَل٠وجميع٠آيات٠الصّÙÙات٠أÙÙ…ÙرّÙها حَقاً كما نَقَـلَ الطّÙـراز٠الأَوَّل٠وأَرÙدّ٠عÙقْبَتَها إلى Ù†ÙقَّالÙها وأصونÙهـا عـن ÙƒÙـلّ٠مـا ÙŠÙتَخَيَّـل٠قÙبْحاً Ù„Ùمَنْ نَبَذَ الكّÙتابَ وراءَه٠وإذا اسْتَدَلَّ يقول٠قالَ الأخطَـل٠والمؤمنون يَرَوْنَ حقاً ربَّهÙمْ وإلى السَّماء٠بÙغَيْر٠كَيْÙ٠يَنْـزÙل٠وأÙÙ‚Ùر٠بالميزان٠والحَوض٠الذي أَرجو بأنّÙÙŠ Ù…Ùنْه٠رَيّـاً أَنْهَـل٠وكذا الصّÙراط٠يÙمَدّ٠Ùوقَ جَهَنَّم٠ÙÙŽÙ…ÙوَحّÙدٌ نَـاج٠وآخَـرَ Ù…ÙهْمÙـل٠والنَّار٠يَصْلاها الشَّقيّ٠بÙØ­Ùكْمَة٠وكذا التَّقÙيّ٠إلى الجÙنَان٠سَيَدْخÙل٠ولÙÙƒÙلّ٠حَيّ٠عاقل٠ÙÙŠ قَبـرÙه٠عَمَـلٌ ÙŠÙقارÙÙ†Ùـه٠هنـاك ÙˆÙŽÙŠÙسْـأَل٠هذا اعتقاد٠الشاÙÙعيّ٠ومالك٠وأبي حنيÙـةَ ثـم أحمـدَ يَنْقÙـل٠ÙØ¥Ùن٠اتَّبَعْتَ سبيلَهÙمْ ÙÙŽÙ…ÙوَحّÙدٌ وإن٠ابْتَدَعْتَ Ùَمـا عَلَيْـكَ Ù…Ùعَـوَّلًًًً Source I’ve posted this poem on the site a while back but I think it’s more appropriate on this discussion. Kindly note that this poem was posted merely for my and your amusement and is not an affirmation of my position on this topic! What is more, there is a line in the poem that specifically mocks those that quote poets to support their arguments in similar topics!

^^^ You got the Kaka bit right, saaxib. Oh well, one can't have it all. Here, have a listen to the Milan fans singing "You'll Never Walk Alone" the Italian way. FORZA MILANO

Amazing, astounding, awe-inspiring, breathtaking, extraordinary, hair-raising, heart-stirring, magnificent, marvellous, miraculous, moving, overwhelming spectacular, spine-tingling, striking, stunning, stupefying, stupendous, wonderful. Pick your own word to describe what 500 million people have witnessed here in Istanbul tonight. What the hell ? pick a few. No single word can describe the greatest comeback ever known in world football. Liverpool's amazing European Cup adventure ended in triumph in Istanbul on Wednesday night as 40,000 scousers painted the city red on what must go down as the greatest ever victory in the club's illustrious history. Nothing might ever beat the joy of 1977 when Bob Paisley's team first lifted the greatest trophy in club football but this win, ending as it did a 21-year wait to bring the cup back to Speke airport, is nothing short of miraculous. Three-nil down at half-time, many fans wanted the game to end there and then to save further humiliation. Those fans hadn't counted on Rafael Benitez's half-time team talk though. Whatever he said in that dressing room turned the whole history of this great club around. Benitez and his class of 2005 have written their own names into the history books. No matter what happens to Jerzy Dudek, Steve Finnan, Sami Hyypia, Jamie Carragher, Djimi Traore, Luis Garcia, Steven Gerrard, Xabi Alonso, John Arne Riise, Harry Kewell, Milan Baros, Djibril Cisse, Dietmar Hamann and Vladimir Smicer later on in their careers, no one will ever be able to take away the fact that they were the men who won the European Cup for keeps here in Turkey. Twenty-eight years after Emlyn Hughes first lifted the trophy for Liverpool, the Reds will never have to hand the cup back. As five-times winners, UEFA have awarded the cup to Liverpool to keep. A new one will have to be made. In the terraces, there were tears of joy from some fans who made up the greatest show of support on foreign soil since Liverpool took 40,000 fans to Dortmund for the UEFA Cup final in 2001. If there are supporters like this anywhere else in the world, we've yet to meet them. With defeat staring us in the face, the Liverpool fans took it upon themselves to lift their heroes for the last time this season and boy did it work. Benitez himself was cool as hell. It was if he knew all along just how it would pan out. Even at 3-nil, he didn't panic. He didn't throw Cisse straight on as most of us would have. He waited and he got his reward at the end. The Spaniard has captured the imagination of Liverpool fans all over the world this season and while he might be the first Anfield boss since Shankly to have neither risen up through the ranks of players or staff, he's quickly learned just what matters most to the people who turn up to cheer on the club. The league title may be our bread and butter but no set of supporters in the world revere the European Cup and the fantastic nights that come with it quite as much as Liverpool's. The celebrations have started in Istanbul. On Thursday, when the team parade the Cup through the streets, they'll be even bigger. Liverpool FC - Kings of Europe. How good does that sound? http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/

If you walk out, I'll walk out too, saaxib. May you never walk alone

^^ Ahem