Heh. A great thread yet wasted on most of the readers. You seem to have turned the usual topic upside down there! It is mostly culture. It is ignorance. It is outside influences. But, most of all, it is selfishness of women and men. Islam, as many of the more generous respondents in here would tell you, is perfect. It is the people that are not (this is a complete thesis of a reply, alas, you’ll have to work it out on your own). The overwhelming majority of Muslims deal with such questions with caution and care. These questions you’re asking are not everyday questions for a Muslim. Only deviant people question Islam (a mixture of denial and reading comprehension here). Islam has given women the highest of positions and shown them great respect, your detractors would say. Your everyday respondent will play it safe and try to hoodwink you with tales of great Muslim women, verses of the Quran and maybe a hadeeth or two. None of which are wrong of course; however, none deal with your questions either. Still, there is a tiny possibility that you might be impressed with the stories and deeds of these great women (and so you should) and forget the reason you started these questions in the first place. To return to your topic, it seems that you’ve covered a multitude of issues and I’m not sure which is the most important here. I shall, for the time being (and until you say otherwise) sidestep the possible serious discussion about Muslim converts and concentrate (for the most part) on Muslim born. Is it possible that women can grow out of their own selfishness and tackle such obstacles head on? Is it possible that men (many hiding behind the cloak of faith without practising it) will loosen the reigns and allow the women to break free? I don’t think it is possible. I believe that all sides are happy in the safe position they occupy now. The men have the women where they want them and the women, in spite of the irregular protests, seem to be content in their subordinate position. The few that are not, break out and either go too far (e.g. Ayaan Hrisi, etc) or end up frustrated and hover in no man’s land. As you stated above, Islam is a way of life. However, for many Muslims, assumption is a way of life. You can go blue in the face with questions, queries and challenges to the current positions. You will either get lazy, unsubstantiated and feeble replies or you'll get slapped down with the ‘CEEB, CEEB, CEEB’ cry (and very effective it is too). A new convert on the other hand could ask the most blasphemous of questions and get the most informative, helpful and well-thought replies (mostly). And even if the respondent can not provide such replies, he/she will try their best to direct the ‘new convert’ to the nearest Islamic centre, scholar or mosque. With you, the assumption is that you SHOULD know all of these things and are being deviant and divisive by asking questions about them! With the convert, the assumption is that he/she does not know anything and therefore, there is no harm in answering their queries. To compound the madness, the cultural aspect also comes in. This can’t be easily explained. Why are men better than women? Why is Abdi allowed to play away from home and Leila gets her ear pinched if she even attempted to ‘play’ at home? Maybe if you pretended to be a jilted Russian bride that developed a sudden interest in Islam, eh! It’s late and I’m feeling sleepy now. I’ll try to expand on (or maybe rewrite) the whole thing in the morning. I have a sneaking feeling that I’m not making much sense.

Ah! So much for expecting a real debate to materialise out of this! I was almost sure that Socod Badane was not a lesbian or Salman Rushdie in disguise. It turns out, according to old Xiinfiin, that he’s a charlatan. Game, set and match. Did I hear the word evasive?

The contrast between the Ayaan Hirsi incident (that I mention in my post above) and the Manji and Rushdie stories here reminded me of Orwell’s doublethink concept in his novel 1984. Here is how his hero describes such duplicity: "To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again: and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself. That was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink.' How many, I wonder, get the hint! Source

How wayward are our young these days? I thought Somalis were over nightclubs, fashion shows and all that nonsense. All this was back in the early days when Somalis were aimless, confused and (most of them) new in these lands. We have evolved since. We now know that clubs are the dens of evil, fornication and alcohol. We know it’s wrong to have Somali fashion shows and ogle at bikini clad girls or half-naked boys. Take my brotherly advice and don’t go to any of these nightclubs, my young sister. You say that you were brought up by white parents (and a good job they did I am sure). However, this is why you sadly missed out on some genuine Somali schooling and advice. You have to drop the Western ways and come back to your people, sister. Why go to a Western nightclub where non-Somalis will try to chat you up, feel you up or even spike your apple juice? Listen to my advice and do what most Somalis do. In a month’s time we will celebrate the End of Ramadan and after all our hard work and fasting, it will be time for us to celebrate. There is bound to be at least three Somali parties taking place somewhere in town. Some of our best artists and singers will be there. Go to one of these parties, sister. They will have Somali music, they’ll have R&B and they’ll even have Drum &Base (lucky you’re not a rock chick, eh?). Go to one of these parties and you can walk in and out with your head up high. You will not have to sneak in like you do in nightclubs. You will not have to worry about your brother, cousin or next door neighbour seeing you there (and if any of them are there, they are not likely to mind anyway). This is a Somali party and no sane Somali is likely to stop you from going to such a party. It’s Eid after all and a girl got to celebrate. Somali mothers would all faint and pretend to be suffering from cardiac arrests if they ever hear that one of their daughters went to a nightclub. So girls, don’t kill your mothers. Stick to your traditions and preserve your honour and dignity by going to Somali parties (hoyo would most likely approve). Besides, instead of wasting your money in Club Rumba, All Nations (is that still open, old Londoners?) or Moonlight, why not give it to Xassan Adan Samatar, Khadra Dhahir or Saado Cali? You know it makes sense. PS Smoking or open consumption of alcohol will still be frowned upon even in Somali parties. Better hide that one, boys and girls. Better still, quit these despicable habits. It’s not good for you, you know.

At least you’re embracing the debate, saaxib. It’s a start I suppose. We are both making assumptions here. Your assumption is that the vast majority of Muslims usually pay no attention to arguments, ideas and thoughts of people like Rushdie and Manji. This, with all due respect, is a form of intellectual lethargy. You also assume that most Muslims don’t read national newspapers and that those who do would dismiss such arguments anyway! You’re probably correct, however, what if only one Muslim read the Rushdie and Manji comments and was hoodwinked by them? Can we really afford to sacrifice that pawn? Very well, let us lose the ‘non-practising’ Muslims that were (at best) on the periphery of Islamic society (we are still talking Western Islamic society). Some hasty people might even argue that such ‘non-practising’ Muslims were likely to abscond anyway (with or without a Manji urging them on). Saaxib, as of yet, we have not really tackled this subject. We are still quibbling over the importance of refuting it or ignoring it. So, let me carry on with my depiction and let us see if we can get anywhere. Now, having sacrificed the dead wood (non-practising Muslims) we’re left with a solid and unbreakable mass. A new group guards the peripheries. These ones are probably the fluctuating Muslims (the Friday prayer crew). They are not that far from the first group, are they? How long do you think it will take them before they too yield to the sweetened and very topical appeals of Manji and her ilk? Bear in mind that so far in this ‘assumption’ of mine, the only Muslim reply is ‘forget Manji, the vast majority of Muslims don’t listen to her’. Now, let us speed things up a bit and tackle the new hastily put up border forces. This time, the ones on the furthest margins of Islam are the women (read the last sentence in its intended context please). They have genuine complaints about the way they’re being treated and most attempt to deal with it in an Islamic way. Yet, how many do you think will give way when faced with the juicy argument for women’s liberation and a bit of Manji flavoured feminism? A thousand? A hundred? Ten? Or maybe just one woman? Wouldn’t you agree that even ONE is one too many? Indifference is really not an option and I am shocked, saddened and outraged to see that many (on this site at least) can’t even see that. I could have easily written a five thousand word refutation to Manjis (and Rushdie’s) arguments and posted it on here. Alas, it would have been pointless and ineffectual. You say: “I am not worried about anyone who might fall for Rushdie and Manji’s ideas because of ignorance about Islam. There is no excuse for ignorance when one has access to sources of knowledgeâ€. Though I disagree with that statement in its entirety, I shall indulge you and ask where are these sources of knowledge? If you read this thread again, you will notice that the overwhelming majority of respondents have wasted their words on telling us how bad Manji is. If you read the Rushdie thread you will also notice the same trend. The personalities of these people (Rushdie and Manji) are dissected at length, yet hardly any of the respondents thought it appropriate to include a footnote directing the readers to the ‘sources of knowledge’ you speak of. Furthermore, if the sources of knowledge you have in mind are only the Quran and Sunna, then you’re really not being helpful. Neither ‘science’ can be fathomed or understood at one reading, or by a passing Muslim, and to direct people to them without any instructions is like giving a drowning man a life jacket and leaving him in a vast ocean without telling him in what direction does land lie! He might make it or he might not. It’s all left to random chance. The problem in all of these discussions is that many assumptions are made at the outset. People let their prejudice rule their sensibilities. Pedantry, semantics and unnecessary secondary arguments take over. A case in point is your hearty refutation of illiteracy and poverty and the way you’re connecting it to the comments of a Manji or a Rushdie. It’s a good argument, a valiant argument indeed but it, sadly, does not relate to this subject much. Another problem is the total lack of awareness and unwitting adoption of duplicitous attitudes. It’s quite fortunate that someone else on this site has decided to start yet another thread about Ayaan Hirsi. There, he inadvertently, displayed and exposed an amazing malady that’s overtaking the Nomads here. The ‘despicable’ link he posted concerned Ayaan Hirsi’s video. A good number of the Nomads followed the link and watched the video whilst covering their eyes with their hands, and, like a young and inexperienced bride about to be deflowered by her new husband, cried despicable and acted shy and coy (ceeb, ceeb, ceeb springs to mind)! Others were disappointed that the video was not more explicit, blasphemous or aggravating! And yet, despite the endless threads about Ms Hirsi, nobody really said what it is she’s advocating and why they oppose it (it is assumed that everyone KNOWS). I still, for the life of me, don’t understand why any of them would even watch such a video! Wrong or right, at least Manji and Rushdie are promoting ideas, albeit weak ones. Ideas can be tackled and shown to be wrong, weak or insipid. The Hirsi video is blasphemy for blasphemy’s sake (though some might call it art). I have not watched the video but I’ve read the manuscript and would conclude that it was indeed despicable. What is more annoying and even more despicable is the lack of any self-awareness of the Muslims that felt the need to watch it, having already heard what it contains. People really should stop being lazy when thinking and consider all ideas, actions and eventualities before embarking on anything. Do not assume. I put it to you that assumption is not enough. Only clear, unambiguous refutations will suffice.

Enjoy this little site, boys. If you ever missed a game and wanted to see the goals again, this is the place for you: Goals Goals Goals

^^^ Tell me about it..put the sound up, will ya ^^ciyaar somali fooqal ciyaar somali

187, Van Persie clearly played the ball there PS What the hell is wrong with your team these days? Lost two games already! The Russian mafia shall not win the league (despite winning all their games so far). This is an early season prediction from me. You can quote me back in May. :cool:

^^^ “I’m going to marry that lovely girl with the red dirac, but first I have to test the goodsâ€...

This thread explains a lot. For the activated rosin flux would imply that a bit of adhesion round the insulators would increase the level of plasma cleaning. To do otherwise would be to violate the prime directive and in so doing we lose the 0101110001. What! What! What!

Originally posted by ilaaliye1: quote: I’m sure most people are only too aware of my dislike for pseudo-mullahs. Ah No, you’re not only known for that Sir. You are known for being a liberated fella and also having an extraordinarily Comprehension ability higher than most of the SOLERS' This is the source Haji Ngonge Thanks for providing a source, saaxib. At least now the story is not one of 'waxa la yedhi'. We know the website that reported the story and we'll have to take their word for it. As for the things I'm known for, it's merely a case of perception, saaxib. Today I’m a liberal with extraordinary (note the word there) comprehension abilities; tomorrow I’ll be a rude, vindictive and semi-literate half-wit (for some, I probably already am). Regardless of how you perceive me and in what new light I appear to you each day, you’ve got to admit that I make one hell of a racket. Reminds me of Edna’s poem (no, not the Somaliland woman): My candle burns at both ends, it will not last the night But ah my foes and oh my friends, it gives a lovely light PS I shall withhold my opinion on this topic (because it will probably annoy people) and instead refer you to Ducaqabe’s wise words. May he always receive the best of Duca for his efforts. PPS I have not lost my mind. I simply decided that, for a short while, it wouldn’t hurt me if I stated the obvious. You never know, I might get to like it and turn into a right softie.

Don't Socod-Badane's ideas sound familiar? I’m looking forward to watching how you would deal with him. At least he’s a Somali (and as far as we know, he wrote no bad books and is not a lesbian). This promises to be a very interesting discussion. Will we finally see it taking off?

Care for a little game, boys? Let us predict who will win each game in the league. Go join the site below. Let us play

^^ I agree with almost all you said, saaxib. The only point of contention is the part where you think that Rushdie and Manji do not address Muslims. They do, saaxib. Manji more so than Rushdie. I did not refer to them as the ‘keepers of the faith’ for nothing. What such people do so well is that they petition everyone (not just Muslims). They talk about Islam and what faults they think it has but at the same time, they show how eager they are to fix the problems, clean the tarnished image and (dare I say it) reform the faith. Read Rushdie’s article in the Camel Milk Debate section. Watch how he proposes his nine steps to deal with Islam’s problem areas (thought I’ll play it safe and drop the word reform this time). He even suggests that those that will eventually ‘reform’ Islam are going to come from the West! He’s not talking about non-Muslims here and is clearly addressing ’disaffected’ Muslims as you can see.

^^^ Accusation? Are we playing the semantics game again?

WOL This is really getting tedious wallahi. It’s like discussing Hamlet with a five-year-old. Must I always explain basic things? It is said, that those that suffer from Tourette's Syndrome are intermittently plagued by involuntary tics (that are also usually accompanied by swear words and rude language). This, as you rightly said, does not stop them from leading normal lives. Someone with a Tourette’s Syndrome, if he/she ever got to post on this site (figuratively speaking) will not be able to ‘lead a normal life’ because people like you will jump on his/her throat every time he/she swore instead of reading what he/she wrote. Undestood, o silent reader? FF Saying it the way they wanted to be said is not the problem. That’s easy. One can always concede ground for the public good once or twice. But, what about the third time some semi-literate kid dismiss a valid argument because he or she did not like a single word or phrase in it? I shall not budge on this issue. It is extremely, utterly, shamelessly basic and people NEED to work on their reading abilities or harness their emotions if they genuinely want to have serious and beneficial discussions on this site. Otherwise, they might as well drop all the false pretences and start having short and vulgar SMS discussions. There, U DONT Hve 2 Reed, M8.

Originally posted by Haniif: NGONGE, you said “Those that read the article were probably shocked, disgusted and puzzled as to the reasons that led me to post such an amazing piece of trash on this site! From the few replies that I read, I was astonished to find most people dismissing the author and her sexual orientation instead of tackling the good (yes good) points she raised in that article!†I ask you this, why should you expect someone to over look the grave wrongs that Miss Manji commits to focus on miner statements she makes, statements I should point out that don’t even need to be made because they are so basic, obvious, and excepted. The fact is Miss Manji cannot be taken seriously to speak on behave of Muslims or about Islam because she does not keep the most fundamental of Islamic conduct. There is no reason to even debate her and people such as her. They are tools for the patrons of Satan. But, she does speak on behalf of Muslims and about Islam. She does it all the time and receives amazing coverage for it. That is the point I am making. Hate her, hate the semantics, hate the arguments, and find the mention of her name distasteful and her sexual activities abhorrent. The fact still remains that she IS a self-declared keeper of our faith. Let me save you the time, and mention the idea of the dark satanic powers that fund her, encourage her and allow her work to reach all parts of Western media. THEY DON’T MATTER. Mentioning them is not a valid answer to this problem. Right now, in the West, her and her kind are the faces of Islam. The many young boys and girls that hardly understand their own faith are more likely to be impressed with someone like Ms Manji (a free, outspoken, lesbian ‘Muslim’) than accepting anything from some aggressive and fake mullahs that stalk nightclubs and parties for wayward Muslims. We are not in the Middle East; we are not in Somalia. We are here in the West. We know that many of your young talk about having girlfriends/boyfriends. We know that many drink, use drugs and engage in all sorts of sins. We also know that many of our good Mullahs shun the limelight and one has to actively seek them out rather than easily find them. The ones that our young get to meet and mix with are almost always also young and very aggressive. It is either Hezb-Et-Tahrir that rather than focusing on teaching go on about Khilafa and pipe dreams. Or it’s the sincere but excessively overzealous ones that want (mistakenly) to force people into adhering to the rules of Islam. Young people in general don’t like to be told what to do by their peers. But, when a sweet talking lesbian talks to them...... I was under the impression that websites such as this one would be some sort of sanctuary from these sort of groups. We already had endless discussions about Hezb-et-tahrir, the Salafi movement and the many others. Some thought them bad and some thought them good. Nonetheless, discussions took place and readers of this site got (for all it’s worth) some idea about these groups. Whenever the discussion moved to the Manjis, Rushdies et al, the ceeb, ceeb, ceeb shouts drowned out the whole discussion! Strange! We’re not discussing Angelina Jolie’s vital statistics here; we (I foolishly thought) are discussing a movement that promises to have a great impact on us and our loved ones. I already know all I need to know about Manji, Rushdie and their type. I really don’t need to discuss this topic and doubt (for the most part) that anyone on here would introduce any new ideas or illuminating thoughts. Still, it would be silly of me to assume that everyone else had given the subject as much thought. Now, when I start the topic and I’m faced with the usual screech of CEEB, CEEB, CEEB. I don’t think I’d be far of the mark if I concluded that not many people have given such topics enough thought.

Though I don’t think it was worth a thread of it’s own, still, thanks for kind and helpful efforts, saaxib. Having said that, I’ll still beg to differ and inform you that the example you used is invalid. Semantics, as I said before and repeat now, is indeed important when the word or phrase is a ‘stand-alone’ type of phrase. Only someone that suffers from reading problems, is too emotional or follows his/her own agenda continuously quibbles over semantics. Articles, stories, pieces and even poems are read whole and not according to one or two words, saaxib. If you need to give out advice that would actually have real, effective and practical benefits to the Nomads here, it will be one that advices them to trust their abilities and leave the shallow end of pedantry and semantics. Semantics, while necessary in some cases should not be used as an excuse to stifle discussions or a superficial coat hanger for hasty people that can’t read. If I told you that the trouble with Islam is that it has too many aggressive followers. Your reply should be, to either agree and end it there. Or, disagree and convince me that Islam does not have aggressive followers. What you propose in your thread here is that one should not start sentences with the words “ the trouble with Islam...â€! That, my dear brother, whilst caring and would keep the peace does us no favours at all. Do not be taken in by the familiar wave of indignation, saaxib. Do you follow me, do you follow me at all? I wonder how many of the people here would cope with someone that suffers from Tourette's Syndrome?

I’m sure most people are only too aware of my dislike for pseudo-mullahs. This is a perfect opportunity to rant about their unbelievable antics. However, first things first, where did you get the link to this story from? Is it real? Anyone else reporting it?

Edgar Allan Poe wrote a lovely tale on that topic. Read it here (there is another he wrote that I can’t recall the name of now). sheherazade, I think he also asked that same question in his story.

Viking, I apologise, I’m sorry, it is all my fault. Any chance of dropping the whole thing? If I engage you in this pointless game of hide and seek you’ll only get upset and complain of insults. Let’s just leave it, saaxib. Our racket is upsetting the harmony of the site. I am serious; I apologise for any offence, saaxib.

Paragon, What a great first post, saaxib. I like you already. I almost fully agree with your analysis of the piece and think such thorough and straight replies are what are needed to understand Rushdie and his ilk. The only parts that I don’t think you addressed adequately were Rushdie’s suggestion to re-examine the idea that all Muslims are kin and his opposition to the ‘repression of free speech’! He might be cunning, devious and conniving but, you have to admit, he hit on a juicy area in which to plant further seeds of division and doubt. Why should I, as a Somali, consider some distant fat Arab as my kin for example (I use this example because it is a popular one)? What do I, as a Sunni, have in common with a Shia who prays on a stone and weekly cut himself up with swords and knives in lamentations (pardon the extreme caricature)? On the freedom of speech point, who or what decides what ‘moderation’ means? As for blasphemy, would it not depend on the context and reason rather than the blasphemy itself? Surely no sane person would debate with someone that uses blasphemy as an end in itself with no accompanying debate. Furthermore, surely all debates should be ‘anything-goes-debates’ (providing that they are logical and rational debates). Those that are not only armed with their own logic, ability to reason and wisdom but also with the superior words and commands of the almighty, should be able to ‘win’ any debate they engage in, regardless of the level of blasphemy involved. Right? Again, welcome to SOL, saaxib. That was quite an entry.

عيوبي، إنْ سألتَ بها، كثيرٌ، وأيّ٠النّاس ليسَ له عÙيوبÙØŸ وللإنسان ظاهر٠ما يراهÙØŒ وليس عليه ما تÙØ®ÙÙŠ الغيوب٠يجرّونَ الذيولَ على المخازي، وقد Ù…Ùلئتْ من الغÙشّ الجÙيوب٠وكيÙÙŽ يصول٠ÙÙŠ الأيام ليثٌ، إذا وَهَت٠المخالÙب٠والنّÙيوبÙØŸ I’m calm now. I had a bit of a headache earlier but it’s gone now. My heartfelt apologies to all those I offended. Move on...

^^^^ Why did you decide to address me now, peasant? Did it really take you two years to build up your courage and finally talk to me? If this is all you have to say, let us hope it’s another two years before you manage to write me your next nonsense paragraph. Now, unless you have something good to contribute, be a good peasant and don’t address me unless I fart in your direction. Kashafa, You have opened my eyes, saaxib. Consider today the first day of my cyber life. I’m a new man, a changed man, a born again budonkadonk fan. On that note and seeing that I’ve been advised to roam in Castro territory, let me explain sensei's previous words regarding whisky in wine glasses. It is not proper etiquette to do so. Seven asked the master what the difference between the two but he was busy. Whisky is distilled while Wine is fermented. Whisky is a spirit not a wine. I think I shall stop now lest I step on Castro’s toes. PS Being the amateur that I am, I really am not sure if the budonkadonk we support belongs to a man or woman. PPS Do pictures of monsters in books and magazines still give you a fright?

^^^ Yet another child with a nonsense ‘opinion’ to share! I don’t think I had the pleasure of meeting you before, peasant. I’m NGONGE and if you’re really nice, I might condescend to teach you to read. Now run along and don’t address me again until I’ve spoken to you. PS Viking! You really consider my words to be insulting? Well, I’m sorry you do and I’m sorry if they offended you. Let us just stay out of each other’s way, eh? I can’t stand your nonsense questions (such a word is not insulting I hope) and you can’t stand my replies. For you, and only because you’re upset, I’ll consent to ‘agreeing’ to ‘disagree’.