Homunculus;936745 wrote: You can't arbitrarily claim that Somaliland represent Eastern Sanaag and Khatumo. Those regions didn't hold elections and are not directly represented in the Somaliland parliament. You can claim sub sub clan out of nowhere claiming allegiance to whoever is paying them money but if you think that the people of that region will have no say in their future, you are greatly mistaken. I find it hypocritical of Somalilanders to want self determination but refuse it to others. Not that I think secession will happen anyway. I do not arbitratily claim anything saaxib. I simply answered Baashi's point. Read it again. Xiin, It can't be a crystal ball if I say this may happen. That's the difference between you and me, saaxib. Where I give probabilities (even impartial ones) you try to convince us that yours are facts (crystal ball facts of course). Wax fahan.

^^ 1. Khatumo is in the wilderness as far as this process goes (unless and until Hassan Sheikh brings them aboard, which neither he nor Sharif before him did). 2. President Hassan has not (to my knowledge) consulted his parliment nor involved them in the process so far. As for being a dictator, isn't that what his Jubbaland citizens accuse him of? My assumption here did not come out of thin air and I'm sure I did mention Jubbaland as I made it. 3. Somaliland represents all those regions since the Somali government did not demand that the distinction be made before agreeing to sit for talks. 4. That's besides the point. The Somali government agreed to sit and talk with Somaliland in the full knowledge of these facts. 5. Again, PL is represented by the Somali government (as the pictures of Farole sitting behind Sheikh Sharif in Dubai will attest). You are going about it all wrong there, Baashi. For if the Somali government based its argument along such lines it will leave itself open to a compromise deal. I thought the Somali government were adamant that there is no way any part of Somali can breakaway not that Khaatumo is this or Puntland is that!

^^ It's the furstration that everyone feels when confronted with the mad mullahs that have swept the Islamic world (be it Shabab, Qaacida or Muslim brotherhood).

^^ Which Pepe, the Madrid player? He's a very good player dee. Ask Jose about him.

Kuyt was a very good player, Norf. The only player in the current LFC team that works as hard as he did is Suarez. Plus, none of other strikers come even close to how good Kuyt was. Bahasha baro. (Juxa..dee so noqo and tell me about this lix lixaad nonsense).

Legend of Zu;936703 wrote: So you're saying it is about control? and not the will of the people? NG, you make sense, but my point is SL admin are banking more on the emotional response of the masses rather than laying down strong foundation for nation building, does that make sense? even if today SL is recognised it is longevity is under threat, me thinks. My thinking is the only way the international community will recognise SL is through a referendum. would the SL admin accept that, i doubt, too proud. This is why I said I agreed with the guru when he mentioned Sudan. I've alway been of the opinion that this is where it will end. Still, the signs today are much better than when Cigaal declared that 97% chose SL in that referendum of his.

^^ I gave you a position of some of those in SL, not my own take LOZ. As for what you ask; if the issue was similar to that of SL and they were in control of the land itself (with all the admin, army, etc)..err, I suppose they'll have to have talks and probably be in exactly the same place SL is in today (assuming, of course, that SL is a recognised state).

^^ I blame Juxa.

^^ Ma ii hubta? I feel waxba iga maqan ninyaho. How are things saaxib? See the games last night. Both were great to watch.

^^ That has always been my opinion too. Naxar Nugaaleed;936690 wrote: Am not going to pretend that I am privy to some sort of secret information which has become the custom in SOL but few things are clear. neither party going into this conference has a mandate to concede much ground. Silaanyo wont be able to sell to people in hargeisa who have for some odd reason have been clamoring for "recognition" for two decades to return to somalia overnight and president Hassan has better chance of sending a mission to mars then getting members of parliament to accept dismemberment. the likely scenario is a stalemate and a promise to continue these talks in another time and place. If we want to be optimistic though, this is not a Israel/Palestine negotiations, Somaliland can agree to shelf its bid for statehood for a certain period, peacefully resolve issues with its Eastern neighbors and Somalia can agree to a special autonomous status until the end of that period. I doubt anyone in SL believes these talks are the be all and end all of the situation. If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that most expect these talks to fail. Still, when they do fail, how many will ask Hassan Sheikh why they failed? (Siilaanyo is already getting the heat).

There are those in SL who are suspicious of these talks. They don’t believe that Somalia is a legitimate partner and rather think that because SL had gained its independence by force of arms, it should not demean itself by going back to sit down with those it defeated. Their argument is that there are no talks to be had and that SL’s position is very clear. Then there are those that believe that SL will still have to talk to Somalia because of the proximity of that state and in order for SL to disentangle itself from everything Somali (debts, border demarcations, compensation and peaceful co-existence). Siilaanyo seems to subscribe to this latter group. The rest of those in SL are happy to seek separation by any means necessary and, since they already believe that SL is separate, view these talks as the final nail on the coffin of the Somali Republic. So, as you can see, discussion and differing points of view regarding these talks do exist and are very lively in SL. Though they all disagree on the method used to achieve the final goal, they nonetheless are all unanimous in their desire to see the separation rubber stamped. With Somalia however, nobody really can tell what the government of Hassan Sheikh thinks. They are all sweet and conciliatory in their words (no political pressure or force, hope for unity, etc). Yet, it is the same nonsense they have used within their own backyard but are still finding themselves falling out with everyone. The Somali commentators have been mostly silent about these talks and one can’t find any that are opposed or in support of these talks. Well, I say any even when I can see Xiin’s desperate attempts to present his simplistic opinion as some well thought out and thorough analysis of these talks! At any rate, in order for one to analyse these talks and their eventual outcome, one has to inspect the publicised aims of the talks (not the desires of SL or Xiin). These are all about clarifying the future relationship between SL & Somalia. Clarifying a relationship can be anything from separation to full integration and anything in between. Bear in mind that the International Community, at this stage at least, is only here to encourage, support and facilitate these talks, not to mediate. So, who has more reason for optimism here? Somaliland that has been planning for this day for two decades or Somalia that keeps changing presidents and politics every day? Somaliland that is united in its desire to ratify its independence or Somalia that tilts according to the desires of whoever is in charge at any point in time? Somaliland that has believed in its independence for twenty two years or Somalia with an FM that discovered the virtues of unity three months ago? Xiin really shouldn’t be asking his crystal ball any questions about Somaliland and should rather direct his questions and complaints to the Hassan Sheikh camp. In fact, any Somali that believes in the unity of Somalia should put all his energies into questioning, scrutinising and pressuring the Somali government into ensuring that Somaliland never secedes. This silence and preoccupation with minor issues such as Jubbaland, looted houses and Merca struggles may encourage Hassan Sheikh to think that the Somalis of Somalia are ambivalent about the statues of Somaliland and he may, just may, drop the ball. Where will that leave Xiin, eh? Change of tactics, saaxib, change of tactics.

^^ I don't buy the "old" argument. Say I'm unhealthy or have a bad diet.

AfricaOwn;936413 wrote: So would you say the Northerners are more established (involved in politics, own acres, businesses) in the UK today? Or is it hard to say? Not really. The numbers were not that great to make such a thing very visible. Only AFTER 97 did business appear in large numbers and Somalis begin to be involved in politics and what have you. Having said that, the first Somali politicians were long established northerners. The last general election did ahve many young candidates though (which I'd assume were all from southern Somalia, going by the numbers rather than any facts).

Foolish girl showing her breasts to a group of Arabs and expecting them to follow her line of argument!

If you're lucky enough to make it there, the only real thing you can hope for is the continuous raxma of the Allah. The rest is a mere shopping list of things that will make no real difference to you.

^^ Wa calaykom al salaam. Good morning, Juxa. What does lixdaada lixaad mean? Are you talking about waking up healthy? I woke up with aches all over my legs. I have no idea why. Does that mean lixdayda lixaad lix ba ka maqan?

^^ Fair enough.

^^ He doesn't. I had to jump through several hoops to get in touch with him and drag him back.

^^ Your caravan blocks the sun out, saaxib. Never mind simple expressions that you may have used. It is what almost everyone on this site associates you with. And, since it wasn't a putdown, I couldn't include it there. Wax fahan. Edit: I see the General (Duke) is reading this page. Ileen anaad i wada sugayseen!

^^ You have the ability to do it Apo and it's usually brillaint. Shame that we have to get Alpha to irritate you first.

Baashi, I'm a practical man, saaxib. That Somalis have clan troubles is a fact that I know and realise can't be changed by writing about it in here. What I can hope to change however is the tone and delivery of the discourse. Do you believe you can make the guru change his mind about "the defeated lot", can you make Xiin abandon his "tent"? Neither can I. Wax fahan.

N.O.R.F;936260 wrote: A music festival guarded by the army is 'progress' to westerners. It's progress to ANYONE, saaxib. It was only a year ago when these bands would have been killed by Al Shabab for daring to sing in the shower, never mind in public. The army was already there. Now you have the army and you have a music festival. Progess nooh.

N.O.R.F;936296 wrote: More Somalis entered after 97 than before? Doubt that Ngonge. Much more, saaxib. It used to be all northerners (those that claim SL and those that don't). But after 97, the doors to Xamar were opened and thousands arrived (not to mention those that Alpha lovingly refers to as Eurotrash).

^^ There you go. Happy now? http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/E2D10DAFEC82474E9C9A4BD36F60C9A4.pdf

^^ That's temporary, saaxib. Once you get them to fit into your timetable, you'll find time for us again.