solutions can be worked out but who will implement them? Loaded question for just one person to answer, Che. I would say, those who wish for a united Somalia to reemerge, whether they're politicians, businessmen, or community leaders. This may be vague but I think it's an obvious requirement. You know, it's so exhausting to contemplate on what Somalia "ought to be", what are Somalia's "faults", and what plagues the Somali character. Is it possible that we've excelled so well in criticism that any effort to change is instantly discredited? I'm ranting, but how is it that one failed institution has tarnished all others? Why must the future be instantly equated with everything NEW? It's interesting that, while the rest of the world grows nostalgic for years gone past, Somalis push for an alien and "brand new" society. For a country that's only 40-odd years old, I think we're being a bit too demanding.

Somalia is dead Strong words, Shyhem. But what do you suggest we do about it? Apply an awesome eraser to all the maps of the world and let Ethiopia and Kenya stretch out into the vastness of the seas? If that doesn't spark a fire under the seat of any nationalist, perhaps nothing will.

Tamina, I feel your pain. But you know, if you look hard enough, you can always find a loop-hole! This past summer I managed to stay in Montreal and work, despite my horrible french. I did find a loop-hole though---McGill itself! Once again, a little determination goes a long way...

Tamina, I feel your pain. But you know, if you look hard enough, you can always find a loop-hole! This past summer I managed to stay in Montreal and work, despite my horrible french. I did find a loop-hole though---McGill itself! Once again, a little determination goes a long way...

I see the whole somalia under Ethios' occupation...wait, just wait!!...and spliting into ministates will be a Plus for our enemies since no one such state could defend itself on its own. Strategically, that's right on the money, Ladiif. And economically, the absence of a legitimate government leaves Somalia's lands as an open lot, where precious resources are stripped away in a free-for-all! Personally, I think it's wasteful thinking to consider Somalia better off as a collapsed state...the wording itself should be reason enough! The international community will never recognize a non-de jure state, hence the lack of status for Somaliland and Puntland. Granted, we're living within Imperial borders, but this has never been an enduring excuse for any other African country. And the arguement that we should separate into mini-states to accommodate tribes, when will it stop? Until every immediate family has his own plot of sovereign land?

Err...Horn, I don't think this is a fair question. The two choices you have given are extreme opposites of each other. Plus, they both immediately call for a particular political system, no other considerations. Given the fact that there's not one country that's practicing all-out free-enterprise or socialism, do we really want to set ourselves up for failure AGAIN *lol*?

Excellent summary, Shujui .

Gediid, an experiment is not considered valid without any tests!

Yacquub, thank you for your contribution. I'm sure you and I have the same vision, but we're just articulating it differently. It's fair to see democracy in its current light, under the practice of Western societies we know conflict with our faith. And yes, in any case where democratic-like, or shoora, systems are taken into consideration, it will never share the same definition as a western liberal democracy. I tried to put across the point that shoora and democracy indeed have several similarities. And just like any other foreign body, democracy has some attributes that should definitely be considered, maybe eventually adopted. I find any suggestion a step forward from despotic, authoritarian rule so rampant in Islamic countries nowadays. If you would like further readings making a similar point to mine, I would like to suggest to you an article by Dr. Ja`far Sheikh Idris (http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=545).

Good question, Khayr. I think your question should really be " Why is Somalia a nation without a state?" though. I know it's been mentioned a MILLION times, but there is truth to the fact that Qabiil-ism was a definite factor in Somalia's collapse. Beyond that, I think it has been a systemic problem. When Somalia first gained independence, leaders rushed into a premature model of democracy, with too many faults to remedy. Secondly, the Barre regime of "scientific socialism"...Well, I guess you could analyze it religiously and argue that it collapsed because it deviated from Islam (certainly true with the simple adoption of socialism), or you can attribute the same downfalls to the Barre regime as any other socialist/communist country that has met the same fate.

Thanks for posting the topic, Shujui. Yacquub, I understand Social equality to mean that social benefits (ie. programs and services administered by the government) are available equally to all. I meant my meaning in the non-discriminatory constitutional sense of "equality before and under the law". Social equality should not be mistaken for the constitutional rights of freedom of expression and speech. Anyways, of course gay rights would be unfounded in an Islamic system. I'm a bit confused with "nude women's rights." And lastly, there has never been a system of rule that could completely control the thoughts and expressions of their citizens, and I think that's a great thing. If the statements are heretic, there is appropriate justice due. Otherwise, constructive criticism is always welcomed . I hope this satisfies you.

Yacquub, thanks for the constructive criticism. In the definitions you gave for democracy, actually not all democratic systems are founded on `majority rule.` Some practice a proportional electoral system that makes sure that parties get the same number of seats as the voters credit them. I can understand where the discomfort arises from voters being given the power, but I don`t think it`s such an extreme obstacle. Voters have never been given the power to elect Supreme Court justices, only to members of legislature. There wouldn`t be any difference in what I proposed. I`m not exactly familiar with the system of appointing Islamic clerics, but I`m sure they go through a similar process as the justices of western supreme courts. And lastly, ''The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community'' Doesn`t Islam endorse this anyways?

I would also like to suggest Islaam.com. They have a huge library of audio lectures as well as articles. Very informative!

Islam produces no value which constitutes the existence of a democratic system Hey Mr. Animal Farm, you know we`ve already discussed this AT LENGTH recently, so I won`t comment on this one. The theory of modernization argues that, along with mass campaigns for education, industrialization, etc., the society must also forfeit its traditional values and culture, in order to phase into a so-called `modern` era. This obviously conflicts with Islamic ideology. But westernization? Wearing Guess jeans and drinking Coke is definitely Westernization. And obviously, no developing country has had difficulty accomplishing this.

Thanks for responding, Shujui. I just find it extremely disheartening to see politics motivated by things other than politics! Especially in this case, where Israeli politicians use politics as a scape-goat to achieve some disillusioned end. What is most hurtful is that it is at the direct cost of Islam.

There is great skepticism in regards to the relationship between Islam and democracy, but I truly believe that there is a way of successfully adopting the attributes of democratic rule into an Islamic state. One strong arguement that I would like to bring up is the fact that the legislative bodies of all democratic systems (whether the British, French, American style, etc) are all restricted by their constitutions, whether written or not. Of democracy's greatest attractions, is the checks-and-balance system that is automatically put in place by the fact that the powers of the executive, legislation and judiciary are autonomous and yet all vulnerable to the constitution. Instead of a body of irrefutable, man-made laws, I suggest that the Supreme Court of our proposed Islamic Democracy rule by the decrees of the Quran. Just like in current western democracies, any bills or legislation would be struck down if it does not abide to Sharia law. A democracy with this fundamental base could surely not be considered "kafir". Also, I think the prime reason for resistance against democracy is the fact that nearly all modern democracies practice secularization. The extent to which they really do belongs to another discussion, but I don't think that secularization is a necessary feature of democracy. The fundamentals of democracy are the population's right to free and fair elections, and that the legitimate government guarantees the people their civil and political liberties. Denying these rights leads to the tyrannical rule condemned by the Quran. Anyways, my only fear though is, because an Islamic democracy would not practice secularization, western democracies would be extremely hesitant, if not hostile, to accepting this as another system of democracy. But forget them. We're damned if we seek to satisfy them, damned if we don't.

There is great skepticism in regards to the relationship between Islam and democracy, but I truly believe that there is a way of successfully adopting the attributes of democratic rule into an Islamic state. One strong arguement that I would like to bring up is the fact that the legislative bodies of all democratic systems (whether the British, French, American style, etc) are all restricted by their constitutions, whether written or not. Of democracy's greatest attractions, is the checks-and-balance system that is automatically put in place by the fact that the powers of the executive, legislation and judiciary are autonomous and yet all vulnerable to the constitution. Instead of a body of irrefutable, man-made laws, I suggest that the Supreme Court of our proposed Islamic Democracy rule by the decrees of the Quran. Just like in current western democracies, any bills or legislation would be struck down if it does not abide to Sharia law. A democracy with this fundamental base could surely not be considered "kafir". Also, I think the prime reason for resistance against democracy is the fact that nearly all modern democracies practice secularization. The extent to which they really do belongs to another discussion, but I don't think that secularization is a necessary feature of democracy. The fundamentals of democracy are the population's right to free and fair elections, and that the legitimate government guarantees the people their civil and political liberties. Denying these rights leads to the tyrannical rule condemned by the Quran.

*LOL* Oh my...! I tried to put myself in this situation, but I'm sorry, I cannot. This is a decision I could never make unless I was truly in this position in real life. I really think it matters on the best friend's frame of mind, and especially if she's living in North America, accepting to be the second wife!!! Lulla, if you managed to think this up, you definitely have imagination!

when you look at human development i mean even as homosapiens we had to battle against a previous breed and ..well...exterminate them. History is violence and it kills what cannot prosper. if this is true were are we as somalis and muslims heading to? OGUN, I don't understand from which perspective you're trying to reason. You mention the evolution of homosapiens, but you also mention the fate of Muslims. Are you arguing as an evolutionist or from a religious foundation? I mean, if it's the former, you can always bring in Social-Darwinism, or Hegel's "thesis, antithesis and synthesis" history cycle of war and peace...the list goes on. But if you want to consider the plight of Muslims, shouldn't you discard any notions of evolutionism since they obviously conflict?

I am double-majoring in Economics and Political Science. I'm sure there's lots more people studying this same combo---cheers to us!

I am double-majoring in Economics and Political Science. I'm sure there's lots more people studying this same combo---cheers to us!

Hey Link, You know, Ottawa U and Carleton were my obvious options. But to tell you the truth, I guess it was just my ambition that pushed me out of Ottawa. Of course, the most difficult problem I had to deal with was leaving my family, but it was extremely comforting to know they were only 2 hours away (beats Toronto!) Besides, I truly believe in the last two years I've spent in Montreal, I've learnt and experienced things I would NEVER come across in Ottawa. I have no doubt about that. And I also thank my parents for allowing me to leave home, because I know Somali parents are extremely protective (especially of their daughters!) Anyways, it's always up to the individual and their best wishes. Shopping in Montreal? You know the two go hand in hand! Like any other tourist, of course make sure to check out rue St. Catherine's. There's a link-up of underground malls, starting from Le Cours Mont-Royal and extending to Les Ailes de la Mode Complex. Enjoy!

Hey Link, You know, Ottawa U and Carleton were my obvious options. But to tell you the truth, I guess it was just my ambition that pushed me out of Ottawa. Of course, the most difficult problem I had to deal with was leaving my family, but it was extremely comforting to know they were only 2 hours away (beats Toronto!) Besides, I truly believe in the last two years I've spent in Montreal, I've learnt and experienced things I would NEVER come across in Ottawa. I have no doubt about that. And I also thank my parents for allowing me to leave home, because I know Somali parents are extremely protective (especially of their daughters!) Anyways, it's always up to the individual and their best wishes. Shopping in Montreal? You know the two go hand in hand! Like any other tourist, of course make sure to check out rue St. Catherine's. There's a link-up of underground malls, starting from Le Cours Mont-Royal and extending to Les Ailes de la Mode Complex. Enjoy!

Thanks for the welcome, Libaax! I can swear to the fact that you don't have to speak a word of French to get by. McGill is an English school, and although Montreal is bilingual, the downtown area is dominantly English. Besides, Montreal is an excellent place to learn French (or you don't even have to!). So to anyone who was previously discouraged, worry no more anglophone Somalis !!!

Thanks for the welcome, Libaax! I can swear to the fact that you don't have to speak a word of French to get by. McGill is an English school, and although Montreal is bilingual, the downtown area is dominantly English. Besides, Montreal is an excellent place to learn French (or you don't even have to!). So to anyone who was previously discouraged, worry no more anglophone Somalis !!!