Alpha Blondy;945752 wrote: iska daa our resident SUPER WOMAN ........she's intellectually flawless........ and makes an excellent breakfast while spearheading 'third-world' issues.......EXCELLENT! all in a days work for Saffz but for the rest of 'us' mere morals, we live in the hope of being graced with her one-womanism conscious efforts. Saffz....this hees is for you...... ee sida uula soco....... Alpha B. lool Alpha, you didn't call me a pseudo-intellectual I'm even willing to overlook the misogyny in your post as well as a poor song choice because I'm that touched by this.

ElPunto;945744 wrote: ^I'm just giving you my impression. Relax. Are you sure the butthurt doesn't include you? Irritated is the better term lol. I don't know why I get into debates over history on SOL, it's a different world here.

ElPunto;945737 wrote: ^You didn't but when one says a 'people' have been enslaved - that image comes to mind. I didn't say anything like "the Somali people were enslaved" either, I've only repeated several times now that like every other ethnic group in the region, Somalis too we were touched by the slave trade(s) and it is absurd to dismiss the image caption from the Iran portrait because you refuse to accept the fact some ethnically Somali slaves ended up in the Middle East. There is way too much butthurt in this thread. PS - though we are discussing "ethnic Somalis" here, it's also important to bear in mind that there are many people in southern Somalia today who are descendants of enslaved peoples and now identify as Somali, and their historical experience certainly qualifies as large scale slavery.

Where did I say anything about the large scale enslavement of Somalis? That was the strawman Chimera invented in his attempt to make a point.

Chimera;945702 wrote: Somalis are 'the one ethnic group' that had the most wide-spread power projection in East Africa, be it military, cultural, or economic. Their impact can be traced from Egypt to China, in the form of states, trade, cultural diffusion, or individuals. Somalis controlled the richest cities in East Africa, the most battle-hardened armies came from the Somali peninsula, it was in that region that a European power was defeated for the first time. They had the most expansive maritime-network, and possessed the necessary ship-building technology and port cities to sustain such a culture. The economy of slavery in that region during the Middle Ages was the domain of Somali polities such as the Kingdom of Adal, a single leader from that superstructure enslaved 20 thousand Abyssinians every Lent, most of whom were exported to Arabia and India, and much more were captured and sold during the Conquest of Abyssinia. You had Hydraulic empires like the Ajuuran that maintained slave-armies, and controlled major port cities from where slaves south of Somalia were brought to, and then sold. That is false, and your entire post is bordering on the fantastic. Somalis were certainly not a powerless people and maintained many important states as well as were active players in the Indian Ocean and Red Sea trade networks, but exaggeration is not helpful. Reminds me of the "we were all kings and queens of Egypt" stuff you hear from black nationalists in the US. Furthermore the key port cities during the height of these trades were under the administration of the Ottomans, Zanzibaris, Omanis, etc. The Portuguese also brutally sacked Somali towns, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. I've read diary entries from the Portuguese during this period talking about how they were cutting off limbs to take women's jewelry. I don't have time to go through your post line by line but there are many issues here. Chimera;945702 wrote: We "cannot confidently assume" those referred to as "Abyssinians" in history to be misrepresented Somali captives, because there is no evidence of this. No major foreign empire ever held sway over the Somali peninsula, nor is there any historical corroboration for a trade in "Somalis". This is an ethnic group whose phenotype, language and culture was distinct enough for the likes of Ibn Battuta during his visit to the Sultanate of Mogadishu, to differentiate them from both the Arabs and other African groups, including the Abyssinians. You're missing the point, and I've explained earlier in the thread the historical ambiguity of the terms Ethiopian/Habashi. Your words in quotes are Wadani's, not mine. I suggest you read more about the nomenclature "Ethiopia" for the historical context I'm referring to, which since antiquity (and most notably in the Bible) has signified much more than what has ever been the boundaries of an Ethiopian state. Chimera;945702 wrote: Slavery in Somalia is a well researched topic, moreso than many other important ones. Scholars such as Catherine Besteman's extensive research on the issue comes to mind. The slave-trade in Somali port-cities reached a peak in the 18th/19th century, and the biggest importers from the markets of Zanzibar were the Somali plantation owners in the South, during the Gobroon Dynasty. Mind you, to be clear; were some Somalis in history ever captured and then sold? Sure, but they would be termed prisoners of war, and this does not equal "slavery", which is the enslavement/export of a large amount of people to perform servitude either domestically or abroad. The same way some Japanese in history were once captured and then sold, but we cannot then claim the "Japanese were enslaved", which gives the impression of widespread slavery. Interesting definition for slavery, by your definition most slave trades including the Trans-Atlantic slave trade were not really "slavery" either since wars between West African states accounted for many of the captives. Slavery in Somalia is hardly a well researched topic, I'm quite familiar with the literature and as I said, there is very little out there and much work left to be done. Most slaves were Oromo and Bantu-speaking peoples from the interior, that we know, but it is absurd to believe that some Somalis were not caught up in the trade as well, which is all I've said in this thread after Wadani's knee-jerk response to one image from Iran (the annotations are not mine, by the way, but taken from the exhibit's curators). It is too bad you are unable to reconcile this with your mythology.

Haatu;945693 wrote: Safferz, don't refute the irrefutable girl. We are nasab and thus, above slavery. As soon as I saw Wadani's initial comment I knew the thread would spiral downwards into this, so I'm not going to respond to that. I'm interested in history, not myth-making and ideology.

Loving this song and video right now:

Wadani;945672 wrote: Loool, walaalo it may seem highly unlikley to u but at the end of the day it's upon the claimant to bring proof, which u haven't done yet. It's intellectually dishonest to assume that we must have been slaves just because those around us were. I never said it was widespread (ethnic groups were affected differently and in varying degrees), and Somalis certainly were more involved as slavers and merchants in both slave trades, but to say no Somalis were enslaved is a disingenuous, knee-jerk response. Like I said, slavery in northeast Africa and Somalia in particular is an understudied field and a lot of work needs to be done in that area, but you can draw some conclusions based on other studies and knowledge of what was going on in the area as a whole. The fact is that slavery in East Africa touched EVERYONE. And don't dismiss the Habashi/Ethiopian point, the ambiguity in those terms prior to the 1930s (Ethiopia changed its name for that reason, to associate the modern nation-state with historical "Ethiopia" as a broad concept) is how Ethiopianist scholarship has absorbed much of Somali/coastal history to claim it as their own. This exhibit is full of that BS. Ethiopians do not have a maritime culture, and it was not Ethiopian sailors and merchants who traveled to the Middle East and South Asia.

Okie. Let's suspend all logic and knowledge of political economies of slaving/slavery and its historiography to say Somalis were the one ethnic group untouched by the Red Sea and Indian Ocean slave trades.

Alpha Blondy;945656 wrote: can you establish a connection between your uni and the library? i'm sure they could help in some capacity. we'll take whatever they could offer.....old books, sponsorship, a relationship/connection of sorts.....ANYTHING....it's worth trying and if you need paperwork, perhaps, i could email you the proposal i've written? :confused: Hmm I think what they do are institutional partnerships with other universities, not regular libraries (and even though you've called it a public library, it's technically private since it's not government funded). I think what you need to do is reach out to the Hargeisa local government and perhaps the ministry of education in SL for funding, and NGOs (ie. Books For Africa) to help you get materials.

Alpha Blondy;945652 wrote: did you forget about the CHIEF LIBRARIAN, FOUNDER & CEO ?......(hint - the person behind Alpha B...ee sida uula soco.....:cool:) So put yourself in the budget, unless you plan on leaving your current job to work for free.

You need a full-time librarian (or part-time, depending on library hours) that you pay properly, and you can't expect the librarian to also be a watchman. Volunteers can help out but you can't depend on them to run the entire library, and it's important to have at least one paid staff person who is always around. How will you cover the operating costs btw? Good luck Alpha, you know I feel strongly about the lack of libraries and inaccessibility of books in Hargeisa so I hope you pull this off And I will certainly visit.

$30 a month for a librarian? Those aren't labour costs, that is slavery lol

Sister I consider Hargeisa to be my hometown, since my mom is from there and my dad grew up there.

Alpha Blondy;945625 wrote: Dhusamareb is NOT north, inaar...... ee naga daa bahasha. Who said I'm from Dhusamareb? lol

Here's a 1931 article on British anti-slavery missions in the region, which says 500 slaves a year from Somaliland and Abyssinia are exported through the Red Sea slave trade, and that's in 1931 when the trade was coming to an end, certainly not the numbers during its peak. Edit -- I also don't want to be part of the homogenization if what a Somali is, so I'll also add that slavery was huge in the south and historians like Lee Cassanelli argue that cities like Mogadishu, Merca and Brava had an enslaved population of upwards of 1/3 in the 19th century.

Don't be naive Wadani, the political economy of the East African slave trade affected the entire coast, not only the Swahili coast (which includes southern Somalia) but the Red Sea which were important ports for the export of slaves. Very little research has been done on slavery and the slave trade in Somalia, and the issue is further clouded by Somali mythology of being "above" enslavement (which btw is the speech of anyone who hasn't been exported, including societies that lost huge numbers to the slave trade) and the fact the Barre government banned talking and writing about slavery in Somalia. As I mentioned above, "Ethiopian" and "Habshi/Habash" had a wider meaning then and included much more than the contemporary Ethiopian state, so assume anywhere you see that reference, they are often referring to Somalis.

xabad;945566 wrote: Racial profiling works, safferz, but obviously in your liberal namby bamby world we should cajole shiftless, irresponsible, thuggish cayaala suuq and not profile them. you would probably even give them state handouts somaha. unbelievable. Well, good to see your racism stays consistent across threads, I guess.

I'm from the north too. I'm just repeating what I know from linguistics, Somali does not have more Arabic derived words than Swahili.

AfricaOwn;945532 wrote: ^^Yeah, crime fell in NYC because of Guiliani's get tough policies, effective preventive measures. Everyone called Guillliani a racist back then, but his record prove itself. Also false, there are economists and other researchers who have shown that the role of policing in that drop in crime is negligible. Crime rates dropped across the United States over that period.

DoctorKenney;945515 wrote: If the stop & frisk procedures are ineffective as you say, then I take back everything I said about advocating it. But something definitely needs to be done. The crime rates are not "low" and we need short-term solutions as well as long-term. NYC has a low crime rate, one of the lowest out of the major US cities (and so does LA, which you brought up earlier as an example of a high crime rate). And no one is disagreeing with the need for solutions, but racial profiling everyday people and infringing on their civil liberties is not one of them.

Wadani;945513 wrote: Do u believe Somalis were enslaved? Of course Somalis were. No one escaped it.

You haven't responded to my point that everything you've said in this thread is premised on your assumption that New York City has high crime rates and that stop and frisk is effective, both of which are false.

African women in Oman - In the second decade of the 19th century, three slave markets were held weekly in Oman. Some captives were kept locally while others were transferred to Turkey, Iran, Arabia and India. Men in Oman In the 17th century, Oman established garrisons and factories in Kilwa and on the islands of Zanzibar and Pemba (Tanzania), in Mombasa (Kenya) and in Pate. In Oman, the cities of Muscat and Sur became important centers for the redistribution of captives. They arrived from the Swahili Coast and were transported throughout the Persian Gulf. In the 1860s, an estimated 13,000 African captives were taken to the Gulf every year and 4,000 to 5,000 were sent to Sur in Oman. Sailors in 1237 - As early as the fifth century Arabs brought Africans to southern Iraq to work their date plantations and salt marshes. During the late ninth century Africans took up arms against the Abbassid slaveholders, taking over several cities. They organized their own state, which had its own standing army, and even minted coins. This 1237 illustration is the work of the Iraqi illuminator Yahya ben Mahmud al-Wasiti. Today an estimated 1.5 to 2 million African descendants live in Iraq, mostly in and around Basra where they represent 15 to 20 percent of the population. Pictured here is a young Iraqi living in the Dhi Qar Province Orphanage, holding a stuffed animal given by the U.S. Army. Afro-Iraqis represent 5 to 6 percent of the total population. To combat racism, they formed the Movement of Free Iraqis in July 2007. It demands the recognition of blacks as an official minority, an apology for slavery, laws against racial discrimination, and representation in Parliament. Here Salah al-Rekhayis, a candidate for provincial council, campaigns in 2009. Enslaved woman in Iran, 1714 - People from Ethiopia, Nubia (Northern Sudan/Southern Egypt) and Somalia; and the East Africans having transited through Zanzibar and other ports of the Swahili Coast were brought to Iran, along with captives from Turkey, Georgia, Armenia and the Caucasus (Russia). Ethiopian and Nubian females were mostly employed as concubines and confidantes in harems and could reach key positions. Females from the Swahili Coast often performed domestic work. Enslaved man in Iran, 1714 - African males were employed as soldiers, field hands, laborers, guards and eunuchs in harems. Eunuchs could wield significant authority and reach high political positions, as well as accumulate economic wealth, since they were paid.

From the Middle East: Bilal al-Habashi - Bilal was among Muhammad’s earliest converts. The son of an enslaved Ethiopian woman, he became a trusted companion of the Prophet. Bilal Al-Habashi (the Ethiopian), as he was also known, was enslaved by Umayyah ibn Khalaf who violently opposed Muhammad and his teachings. When Bilal converted and insisted there was only one God, Ibn Khalaf tortured him. Having heard of Bilal’s tenacity, Abu Bakr (later Sunni Islam’s first caliph) purchased and emancipated him. In this 16th-century print a “Moor” of Arabia is depicted as a black man with curly hair. A black man is portrayed, in the middle, as an elegant learned Muslim. 1800s Slave ship on the Arabian coast, 1873 Slave ship in the Red Sea - During the 19th century, the Ottomans controlled the Red Sea ports, feeding enslaved Africans into the center of their empire in Anatolia (eastern Turkey). By the 1860s, up to 15,000 individuals were carried on Ottoman ships during the annual pilgrimages to Mecca. Africans were sold at Jeddah and Mecca, or were otherwise exchanged for goods, including steel weapons from Damascus, turquoise or carpets from Persia, and silks from China. People from Africa, Turkey, the northern Caucasus, and some from India were enslaved in Mecca. According to C. Snouck, who visited Arabia in the 1880s, “There is a preference for Abyssinians, who have many good qualities, and abound, of all shades from light yellow to dark brown. Circassians [whites] … are little valued on account of their enormous pretensions. … More important, as workers, are the African slaves. They come mostly from the Soudan, and are set to the heavier tasks of building, quarrying, &c.” Men in Arabia, 1889 - The black man on the right holding a rifle appears to be a soldier or guard, one of the occupations of Africans in Arabia. African women at a well - Slavery continued in Muslim lands in the Indian Ocean world well into the 20th century: Saudi Arabia did not abolish slavery until 1962, and Oman did not officially do so until 1970. Slave market in Yemen, 1200s - In 1021, an enslaved Ethiopian, Najah, seized power in the city of Zabit. This image represents the slave market at Zabi—at the time the capital of Yemen—in 1237. The illustration is part of “Al-Maqamat” (Assemblies), a genre of rhymed prose narrative. Both the author and the illuminator of this work were born in Iraq. In Yemen and other Gulf ports, Africans often worked as sailors, dockhands and domestic servants. Between 1865 and 1870, the British Navy settled 2,200 Africans liberated from seized slave ships in Aden. Others were sent to Bombay (Mumbai) and Surat (India), to the Seychelles and to Mauritius.