Apophis;945810 wrote: This whole debate could have been settled if our resident "historian" had been clear about her semantics. Is it logical to assume some Somalis fell into the hands of slave traders, yes it is possible (hardly something worthy of analysis as the numbers were too few to "matter"; a pedantic exercise really) but were Somalis enslaved as was the case with West Africans, i.e was there systematic slave trade of Somalis selling other Somalis, the answer is a simple nein. There's no evidence to support this. And this attempt of "Habashising" Somalis, to prove your baseless assertion, like the Dodo, won't fly because, as Chimera finds, Somalis were clearly distinct ethnic group from the Habashi highlanders. Semantics dear, semantics. You get an F. Yours, An IR grad Yet another example of not reading the thread before contributing to the discussion:

Steven Levitt at the University of Chicago is a good start:

^^ Alpha I told you we were dead in PMs just yesterday, and by insulting Wadani you have insulted my maternal beeble as well dee. Clearly we have little in common if you thought I'd enjoy Evita. oba hiloowlow;945801 wrote: Go Chimeera Go!!!!! The full length novel should be out soon.

Get out of here with that song Alpha, I was thinking more this as the soundtrack to my post:

Blackflash;945762 wrote: Who said anything about being descendants of slaves? I'm pretty sure the all of this thread's participants are one or two generations removed from Somalia making that case unlikely. Why are some of you confusing the likelihood of the slave trade having some adverse effect on Somalis, with mass enslavement? Because SOLers enter threads like this and start typing:

Wadani;945788 wrote: Finally Safferz suffers a defeat. Lool it was a long time coming but its come. My hat goes off to Chimera. If you paid more attention, you'd know I often withdraw from debates when they go to sh*t (for a recent example, see the thread on Somali origins). That's not defeat, that's guarding my time and knowing that SOL "historians" operate with different conventions and standards of historicity, factuality and reason that would be laughed out of the academy.

GaroweGal;945764 wrote: Safferz-- The assertion that Somalis were enslaved as people is fallacy and far from any available emperical evidence. I don't know who or what you're responding to, because I never made that assertion. Chimera;945763 wrote: This is amusing, for your information there was a time somewhere in 2007, when I created and cleaned up all the Somali wikipedia articles from the vomit of Pan-Ethiopianists, and white-supremacists. I spend much time in Europe's biggest library i.e the British Library going through hundreds of books, and every single claim I made in my post can be backed with a source. It's really mind-boggling to encounter self-underestimation amongst Somalis, even intelligent ones, when there is so much materialistic evidence to corroborate "the so-called fantastic". It has become tradition among the interlopers commenting on my posts to create an impression that I'm out of this world because of their own personal myopia or ignorance. I didn't expect such lazy debating skills from you. If there is something you believe is false, then point it out more clearly and you'll get a proper source. Chimera;945763 wrote: Wow, while I keep providing sources, all you have is an exhibit in Iran, whose curators might not even know the difference between Swahili or Somali, but I should take them as an authority on the history of the region, when there are far more reliable sources and institutions available? Great, so you do research and update Wikipedia articles. I'm amused by the arrogance with which you assume you are the only one here who has done archival work and extensive reading on East African history, and you should keep in mind that this is an anonymous internet forum and you know nothing about who posts here or what they do for a living. If you haven't noticed already, I'm purposely not engaging with your posts - over nationalist to the point of historical erasures, conflated historical periodization, outright falsehoods and yes, fantastic accounts - because I neither have the time nor the energy for it. Simply saying things to come off as knowing and making your speculation definitive is not history, though I'm sure it is great material for a historical fantasy novel.

^^ THAT is a song

Alpha Blondy;945752 wrote: iska daa our resident SUPER WOMAN ........she's intellectually flawless........ and makes an excellent breakfast while spearheading 'third-world' issues.......EXCELLENT! all in a days work for Saffz but for the rest of 'us' mere morals, we live in the hope of being graced with her one-womanism conscious efforts. Saffz....this hees is for you...... ee sida uula soco....... Alpha B. lool Alpha, you didn't call me a pseudo-intellectual I'm even willing to overlook the misogyny in your post as well as a poor song choice because I'm that touched by this.

ElPunto;945744 wrote: ^I'm just giving you my impression. Relax. Are you sure the butthurt doesn't include you? Irritated is the better term lol. I don't know why I get into debates over history on SOL, it's a different world here.

ElPunto;945737 wrote: ^You didn't but when one says a 'people' have been enslaved - that image comes to mind. I didn't say anything like "the Somali people were enslaved" either, I've only repeated several times now that like every other ethnic group in the region, Somalis too we were touched by the slave trade(s) and it is absurd to dismiss the image caption from the Iran portrait because you refuse to accept the fact some ethnically Somali slaves ended up in the Middle East. There is way too much butthurt in this thread. PS - though we are discussing "ethnic Somalis" here, it's also important to bear in mind that there are many people in southern Somalia today who are descendants of enslaved peoples and now identify as Somali, and their historical experience certainly qualifies as large scale slavery.

Where did I say anything about the large scale enslavement of Somalis? That was the strawman Chimera invented in his attempt to make a point.

Chimera;945702 wrote: Somalis are 'the one ethnic group' that had the most wide-spread power projection in East Africa, be it military, cultural, or economic. Their impact can be traced from Egypt to China, in the form of states, trade, cultural diffusion, or individuals. Somalis controlled the richest cities in East Africa, the most battle-hardened armies came from the Somali peninsula, it was in that region that a European power was defeated for the first time. They had the most expansive maritime-network, and possessed the necessary ship-building technology and port cities to sustain such a culture. The economy of slavery in that region during the Middle Ages was the domain of Somali polities such as the Kingdom of Adal, a single leader from that superstructure enslaved 20 thousand Abyssinians every Lent, most of whom were exported to Arabia and India, and much more were captured and sold during the Conquest of Abyssinia. You had Hydraulic empires like the Ajuuran that maintained slave-armies, and controlled major port cities from where slaves south of Somalia were brought to, and then sold. That is false, and your entire post is bordering on the fantastic. Somalis were certainly not a powerless people and maintained many important states as well as were active players in the Indian Ocean and Red Sea trade networks, but exaggeration is not helpful. Reminds me of the "we were all kings and queens of Egypt" stuff you hear from black nationalists in the US. Furthermore the key port cities during the height of these trades were under the administration of the Ottomans, Zanzibaris, Omanis, etc. The Portuguese also brutally sacked Somali towns, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. I've read diary entries from the Portuguese during this period talking about how they were cutting off limbs to take women's jewelry. I don't have time to go through your post line by line but there are many issues here. Chimera;945702 wrote: We "cannot confidently assume" those referred to as "Abyssinians" in history to be misrepresented Somali captives, because there is no evidence of this. No major foreign empire ever held sway over the Somali peninsula, nor is there any historical corroboration for a trade in "Somalis". This is an ethnic group whose phenotype, language and culture was distinct enough for the likes of Ibn Battuta during his visit to the Sultanate of Mogadishu, to differentiate them from both the Arabs and other African groups, including the Abyssinians. You're missing the point, and I've explained earlier in the thread the historical ambiguity of the terms Ethiopian/Habashi. Your words in quotes are Wadani's, not mine. I suggest you read more about the nomenclature "Ethiopia" for the historical context I'm referring to, which since antiquity (and most notably in the Bible) has signified much more than what has ever been the boundaries of an Ethiopian state. Chimera;945702 wrote: Slavery in Somalia is a well researched topic, moreso than many other important ones. Scholars such as Catherine Besteman's extensive research on the issue comes to mind. The slave-trade in Somali port-cities reached a peak in the 18th/19th century, and the biggest importers from the markets of Zanzibar were the Somali plantation owners in the South, during the Gobroon Dynasty. Mind you, to be clear; were some Somalis in history ever captured and then sold? Sure, but they would be termed prisoners of war, and this does not equal "slavery", which is the enslavement/export of a large amount of people to perform servitude either domestically or abroad. The same way some Japanese in history were once captured and then sold, but we cannot then claim the "Japanese were enslaved", which gives the impression of widespread slavery. Interesting definition for slavery, by your definition most slave trades including the Trans-Atlantic slave trade were not really "slavery" either since wars between West African states accounted for many of the captives. Slavery in Somalia is hardly a well researched topic, I'm quite familiar with the literature and as I said, there is very little out there and much work left to be done. Most slaves were Oromo and Bantu-speaking peoples from the interior, that we know, but it is absurd to believe that some Somalis were not caught up in the trade as well, which is all I've said in this thread after Wadani's knee-jerk response to one image from Iran (the annotations are not mine, by the way, but taken from the exhibit's curators). It is too bad you are unable to reconcile this with your mythology.

Haatu;945693 wrote: Safferz, don't refute the irrefutable girl. We are nasab and thus, above slavery. As soon as I saw Wadani's initial comment I knew the thread would spiral downwards into this, so I'm not going to respond to that. I'm interested in history, not myth-making and ideology.

Loving this song and video right now:

Wadani;945672 wrote: Loool, walaalo it may seem highly unlikley to u but at the end of the day it's upon the claimant to bring proof, which u haven't done yet. It's intellectually dishonest to assume that we must have been slaves just because those around us were. I never said it was widespread (ethnic groups were affected differently and in varying degrees), and Somalis certainly were more involved as slavers and merchants in both slave trades, but to say no Somalis were enslaved is a disingenuous, knee-jerk response. Like I said, slavery in northeast Africa and Somalia in particular is an understudied field and a lot of work needs to be done in that area, but you can draw some conclusions based on other studies and knowledge of what was going on in the area as a whole. The fact is that slavery in East Africa touched EVERYONE. And don't dismiss the Habashi/Ethiopian point, the ambiguity in those terms prior to the 1930s (Ethiopia changed its name for that reason, to associate the modern nation-state with historical "Ethiopia" as a broad concept) is how Ethiopianist scholarship has absorbed much of Somali/coastal history to claim it as their own. This exhibit is full of that BS. Ethiopians do not have a maritime culture, and it was not Ethiopian sailors and merchants who traveled to the Middle East and South Asia.

Okie. Let's suspend all logic and knowledge of political economies of slaving/slavery and its historiography to say Somalis were the one ethnic group untouched by the Red Sea and Indian Ocean slave trades.

Alpha Blondy;945656 wrote: can you establish a connection between your uni and the library? i'm sure they could help in some capacity. we'll take whatever they could offer.....old books, sponsorship, a relationship/connection of sorts.....ANYTHING....it's worth trying and if you need paperwork, perhaps, i could email you the proposal i've written? :confused: Hmm I think what they do are institutional partnerships with other universities, not regular libraries (and even though you've called it a public library, it's technically private since it's not government funded). I think what you need to do is reach out to the Hargeisa local government and perhaps the ministry of education in SL for funding, and NGOs (ie. Books For Africa) to help you get materials.

Alpha Blondy;945652 wrote: did you forget about the CHIEF LIBRARIAN, FOUNDER & CEO ?......(hint - the person behind Alpha B...ee sida uula soco.....:cool:) So put yourself in the budget, unless you plan on leaving your current job to work for free.

You need a full-time librarian (or part-time, depending on library hours) that you pay properly, and you can't expect the librarian to also be a watchman. Volunteers can help out but you can't depend on them to run the entire library, and it's important to have at least one paid staff person who is always around. How will you cover the operating costs btw? Good luck Alpha, you know I feel strongly about the lack of libraries and inaccessibility of books in Hargeisa so I hope you pull this off And I will certainly visit.

$30 a month for a librarian? Those aren't labour costs, that is slavery lol

Sister I consider Hargeisa to be my hometown, since my mom is from there and my dad grew up there.

Alpha Blondy;945625 wrote: Dhusamareb is NOT north, inaar...... ee naga daa bahasha. Who said I'm from Dhusamareb? lol

Here's a 1931 article on British anti-slavery missions in the region, which says 500 slaves a year from Somaliland and Abyssinia are exported through the Red Sea slave trade, and that's in 1931 when the trade was coming to an end, certainly not the numbers during its peak. Edit -- I also don't want to be part of the homogenization if what a Somali is, so I'll also add that slavery was huge in the south and historians like Lee Cassanelli argue that cities like Mogadishu, Merca and Brava had an enslaved population of upwards of 1/3 in the 19th century.

Don't be naive Wadani, the political economy of the East African slave trade affected the entire coast, not only the Swahili coast (which includes southern Somalia) but the Red Sea which were important ports for the export of slaves. Very little research has been done on slavery and the slave trade in Somalia, and the issue is further clouded by Somali mythology of being "above" enslavement (which btw is the speech of anyone who hasn't been exported, including societies that lost huge numbers to the slave trade) and the fact the Barre government banned talking and writing about slavery in Somalia. As I mentioned above, "Ethiopian" and "Habshi/Habash" had a wider meaning then and included much more than the contemporary Ethiopian state, so assume anywhere you see that reference, they are often referring to Somalis.