Alpha Blondy;989038 wrote: you can't do that. your a Farhiyo Kabayare to my Dalmar-isms. I wasn't joking.

Khayr;989045 wrote: Saf Sometimes, you blow a lot of hot air. Except it's true.

Apophis;989044 wrote: At Hawdian: At Hawdian....again: At Classified: At Khayr: At Africaown: Yeah.... I was clear in my post that I respond in kind, to you, to Hawdian, to Classified, to anyone else. I also have more than a few people blocked in PMs due to the same harassment in PMs. You of all people should know this, since you apologized for the insults quite recently and I accepted that and moved on. I don't have the time to dig up the comments I was replying to there or the types of comments I reply to from you folks on a daily basis, but whoever is interested is free to browse their posting histories or click the blue icon next to each out of context quote Apophis posted to see what I was referring to. I don't apologize for defending myself and responding to rudeness with rudeness.

Miyir;989046 wrote: Saf is this questions addressed to Landers? Lander's suffer self inflicted identity crisis, that the rest of Somali national don't suffer as bad. Not at all, I gave quite a few examples of some of the issues I'm talking about. Somaliland as a coherent entity is as much an 'invention' as any other polity, and for the most part it is the North that is archetypical of and privileged by the myth of Somaliness. Nin-Yaaban;989053 wrote: Umm, there are no 40 different languages spoken in Somalia. Dialects yes, but no 40 languages. Each region/gobol/city still speaks Somali, but with their own variation. Even Af.Maay is at least 50% Somali, and i can still understand half of whats being said Yes this is what I said -- 40 languages *and* identifiable dialects.

Apophis;988987 wrote: What has "social sciences" or it's retarded sibling, "humanities", ever contributed to man that natural instinct hasn't (and with much better results); absolutely nothing.Both fields are as intellectually valid as astrology. Fadlan benta joojiya.

tutu;989025 wrote: 'Muslim preoccupation of the female body'? Aren't you being extreme there. Of course, It's man's indefatigable nature to seek solace in woman's body in times of sexual drought irrespective of ethnic origin. But, a semi-naked Scarlet Johannson will probably incite tempestuous sexual keenness of even the least manly or the sexually-deprived compared to a modestly-dressed Scarlet. It's human nature or should I say man's nature. And that's why Islam calls for both sexes to modestly dress so as to avoid such temptations outside the allowed arenas. I'm not saying Muslims are unique in this, but there is certainly a fixation with and investment in women's dress in Muslim dominant societies, and Marksman was correct to point out that it's about social control. It also has the effect of creating deeply repressed sexual cultures, to the extent that overt sexual harassment is often more of an issue in countries where women are covered from head to toe than in countries like the US. Any woman who goes to an Arab country can tell you this. I've also been back home a few times now and can say without question that I've experienced more harassment by men in Somalia while completely covered than I have in my usual clothing in the West. I disagree with thefutureisnow completely when he says hijab "protests" hypersexualization and objectification of the female body, it simply hypersexualizes and objectifies women's bodies differently. And I'm sorry but until either of you has a female body and experiences it in the world inside and outside of a hijab, you will never fully understand this. thefuturenow;989029 wrote: Second, the hijaab is not about women. It is about modesty in the public space. How many Saudi/Somali men do you see walking around in running shorts with their thighs showing? Don't you think we would like to walk around showing our six pack ribs? This notion that women are oppressed under the hijaab (head cover in this context) is intellectually lazy and ludicrous. If the issue is about the restriction of one's autonomy over the body, then let's talk about tattoos, let's talk about the prohibition to wear silk or gold, or the admonition against plucking one's eyebrows. Certainly, these limitations seem far more egregious than one that at least allows you to hide a bad hair day. Yet, they are rarely discussed because they are less an overt and, thus, less threatening symbol of the Islamic cultural and legal understanding of individual freedom and physical autonomy. The hijab stands in stark defiance of the non-Muslim's conception of life and liberty. T oday, it stands as a protest against the hypersexualization and objectification of the female body in societies where tight jeans and short shorts are culturally and legally sanctioned. What you're describing is an ideal -- what many hijabis describe as their reasons for wearing hijab, and how hijab is *intended* to function in society, but what you're missing is that this simply isn't true in practice for many Muslim women and many Muslim societies, or even in many Muslim families in the diaspora (see guleed's belief above that one can force a daughter to wear hijab). There's a huge difference between a young woman in Norway who chooses to wear hijab and a young woman in Saudi Arabia who legally *must* wear a hijab. I'm not sure why you're unable to see this, or seem to think the notion of hijab being used to oppress in some places/contexts is a ridiculous one. It's a fact. Anyway, we are approaching page 3, which is where I've been known to abandon threads, and I'll be honest and admit I'm already losing interest in the discussion. Nothing personal, it's just an exhausting topic. But I wanted to share a clip from Leila Ahmed that's of relevance, a very good scholar who wrote a book on the history of the veil quite recently:

I did not forget Haatu Fig.1 - cute Somali kids I wanted to start a thread where we can discuss and perhaps complicate the idea of Somalis as a homogenous unit, imagined to be egalitarian, nomadic pastoralists with a shared religious, cultural, ethnic/racial, and linguistic background that together create a coherent conception of who and what a Somali is. This idea of a unified Soomaalinimo/Somaliness is something that underpinned the anticolonial nationalist movements across the Somali territories (1943-1960), the first postcolonial civilian government of the Somali Youth League (1960-1969), and the state ideology of the Siyaad Barre regime (1969-1991), and as we all know it was among the many casualties of the civil war, and the concept of Soomaalinimo - and the possibility of a 'naturally' corresponding/overlapping Somali nation-state - is more contentious and fractured today than ever. So to start off -- could it be that we've always had it wrong? Has this narrative ever been fully accepted by Somalis themselves, or has it been contested from its beginnings despite it being pushed by and legitimized by the state? Have there always been differences, inequalities, and social fault lines suppressed by and subsumed within the unifying ideology of Soomaalinimo? Some of the fault lines that come to mind include ethnicity (ie. the Gosha peoples, or Somali Bantu), caste ("lower" clans), class (peasantry, urbanites, etc), language (Somali, or the Somali languages? I read somewhere there are 40 Somali languages and dialects), gender, land/resource competition (arguably what factional and regional rivalries from the 80s to present are all about, with clan becoming a language for what are fundamentally economic concerns), modes of production (pastoralism, agriculture, merchants, etc), and so on. Fig.2 - Somalia at independence, bal where are the women? To put it simply, can it be said that the Somali crisis is one of contested narratives, identities, and experiences? Answer the poll (in the style of BBC's Doha debates ) and share your thoughts.

tutu;989022 wrote: A presumption too early. I've translated, or rather summarized, the gist of the film. In a nutshell the young lady finds herself between a rock and a hard place due to the expectations of her father and the pressure of culture-clash. She concludes saying that she hopes to become the woman her father wants her to be. Beklager, tutu

guleed_ali;989016 wrote: Then let's not force kids to eat their veggies or do their homework. Better yet let's get rid of curfew or chores. The deen is not something where you can pick and choose. If there are people who despise the Hijab and don't want to wear it they're the exception not the rule. Making the Hijab mandatory in a Muslim country is the same as indecency laws in North America (we just have a higher level of modesty, just as some States have a higher level of modesty than other States). Our opinions as outsiders are moot what matters is the will of the people in that particular country and their lawmakers, and one's got to admit it is way more than the typical 50+1 that is required in "democracy" (using the KSA as a test country). By the way you find just as many Women (if not more) fighting to enforce the Hijab as you do Men. Haye guleed... infantilizing and comparing women's decision making to children being picky about food or refusing to do chores? I would love to see your evidence for the claim that there are "just as many women" in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran who actively support efforts to curtail women's rights in the country, particularly in how women's bodies are policed by so-called "modesty police." What I am aware of are the widespread grassroots efforts by Saudi and Iranian women to change these laws, so you can hardly describe these repressive states as representing the "will of the people." It's actually quite shocking that you would go as far as saying that, but it is in character for you and in line with other views I've seen you express on the Arab world/Gulf in particular. Humans were given free will to make decisions, including decisions in the religious realm -- as the Quran says, "there is no compulsion in religion." Deal with it, you know nothing about what it's like to wear a hijab or what a Muslim woman in the West experiences as a hijabi, neither do you know what this young woman's experiences were and the thought process that lead to her difficult decision to take it off. thefuturenow;989018 wrote: You should celebrate the millions who have willingly worn it. Personal agency and reason are not in the sole possession of those who have decided to unveil. It may be that the more difficult decision is not to take the hijaab off, it is to put it on. Like I said, agency is in the freedom to choose and make the decision on one's own terms, and that's what I celebrate, whether that's to wear hijab, not to wear hijab, or to take one's hijab off. I'm as troubled by societal contexts where hijab is legally or culturally sanctioned for women - like Saudi Arabia, or our own Somalia - as I am by societal contexts where the hijab/niqab is banned, as in France. Autonomy over one's body, and the freedom to make the decision to wear or not wear a hijab free of coercion and force, is what I support.

guleed_ali;989011 wrote: You are an articulate, educated Somali Woman but I think that's uncalled for. Especially the way a majority of the men on here respect you and praise you. If this was towards a troller I'd understand it as anger but Hawdian is well mannered and respectful man and I don't think he or any of the good brothers deserve this. If it isn't good enough for an intellectual debate why is it good enough for SOL? And that was me being polite. I don't know what posts you've been reading for you to conclude Hawdian is well mannered and respectful, even if we put aside his posting history for a moment and look at his comments in this thread alone, it's simply false. He is crass, unthinking and rude, contributing little beyond insults towards me and others he disagrees with in the threads we've both participated in. Kindness and respect are reciprocal, whether it's on the internet or in person, so don't try to police my behaviour or admonish me for being cheeky with someone who has been blatantly disrespectful towards me and others on this forum in the few months he's been here. guleed_ali;989012 wrote: Is it a problem for a Man to wish that all Muslim Women wear the hijab? It wouldn't be a problem if I wanted all Muslim people to stop backbiting or that all Muslim people wouldn't steal from one another. Why is the hijab a touchy subject? Somali Men don't get upset when our sisters tell us to get our act together and become better Men, Sons, Father, Uncles etc. As a Muslim I believe every Muslimah should wear a Hijab. The hijab is prescribed upon Muslimas just like kinship, obeying your parents etc are. If a father teaches his daughter about Salah and forces her to pray then why can't he teach her about hijab and force her to wear the hijab. The hijab may not necessarily be a pillar of Islam but it is a condition for the second pillar of Islam (Prayer). Why must we categorize these under oppression or misuse of the deen. Why can't it be a Muslim wanting good for his fellow Muslimah, sometimes we over analyze issues and distort the true intention of the people. You can wish and choose to believe whatever you want, but pressure, coercion and force is unacceptable. Hijab is a contentious subject for this reason, and whether you want to acknowledge it or not, has been and continues to be used as an instrument to oppress women in many Muslim majority countries. I'm not one to argue hijab is oppressive - I think of it as dualistic in that way, liberating for some while subjugating for others - but what makes it so is the question of force/coercion vs. agency/free will.

LayZie G.;989001 wrote: Hahahahahah, this made my day. This is a powerful photo, and it should be turned into a billboard that reads the following: Do you feel like the bed sheets that you used to conceal your identity give you a "sense of freedom" to drink, smoke, and wh*ore yourself to the highest bidder? Freedom anyone? lol it's an interesting image, and just goes to show that one's piety cannot be assumed on the basis of hijab/hijablessness. But I think anyone who has been back home or to any Muslim country for that matter would already know that there's little correlation between religious observance and how much clothing a woman (or man) is wearing. In Addis and Hargeisa I knew Somali women who wore niqabs to block the sun and keep their skin as light as possible. Hijab only has religious meaning when it's voluntary, not when it's forced, whether that's legally in places like Saudi Arabia or at the societal and family level as it is in many cultures like ours (in the last few decades, at least). For that reason I applaud the young woman in the video for making the decision out of her own agency, as difficult as it is to do.

ElPunto;988994 wrote: The hijab is an important part and parcel of modesty for a Muslim female. Nothing more and nothing less. I find it fascinating that you and Marksman are engaging in hearsay strawman arguments to justify your issues with it. Who is 'much of the Muslim world that has reduced the Musilm woman's identity....to hijab'? Who has elevated 'the hijab to the status of a pillar of Islam'? Offhand I would be shocked to discover any scholar who would elevate hijab to a pillar in Islam. I'm talking about the social narrative and discourse about the hijab, not limited to this thread but how the hijab is viewed by Muslims generally. It's considered central to Islamic practice when it comes to Muslim women, and its very presence or absence seen as an indication of her level of iman/religious commitment. It's not a "hearsay, strawman argument" and I'm surprised you don't see this, but it's quite apparent particularly if you're a Muslim woman and subject to its pressures. I don't have issues with the hijab -- I respect any woman's decision to wear one, as well as a woman's decision to take it off. It's a deeply personal matter and what I object to is how women are caught between those two pressures, the Muslim preoccupation with the female body and female sexuality that frames social narratives of hijab today, and the fear, guilt and shame of veiling/unveiling as a result of that fixation.

You really love your Somali music, Nin-Yaaban

Broke things off with Alpha tonight, I'm back on the market again y'all.

Hawdian;988986 wrote: @Safferz ^ I would discuss this video with you but I doubt you would understand any of it compared to me - som forstaa norsk. Also you calling me a salafi just shows how ignorant you are therefore I am not interested in bila faeeda like you. I have read several of your threads on sol you have nil islamic knowledge and education but still you insist on calling people you disagree with all kinds of names, time to have a rethink for your own sake. Again, you regularly insult and spew vitriol in Somali and Arabic and assume the person you're directing it towards can't understand you, because you are a coward who is incapable of direct confrontation. I'm not interested in discussing anything with you, there are better uses of my time and it's apparent to anyone who has seen your posts - including the one I quoted above - that you are only capable of engaging with arguments to the extent that you deflect, distort and ridicule others, because you have nothing else to say.

Hawdian;988977 wrote: ^ sifcn imika dhamantiin uu aqriyaa ninkan ajinabiga waxu qorayoo oo side uu ummad muminenta isku dirayoo . Qofkaa cadowga ku ah diinta , ogow mumnintow wax fcn ma soo wada. Waxey isaga kagaley dharka gabdh muslim ah hedhaneyso? @ diinta alle beey dagaal kula jiraan habn iyo maliin waa dad muslimka necbanaya ila intey muslimka ka dhegaan sidey iyo yaheen. lol, not the first thread I've seen you do this -- do you really think Somali is some sort of secret code for you to talk to your Salafi friends on SOL? Waa lagu fahmaya sxb, grow a pair and participate in the conversation constructively, whether you agree or disagree with the SOLer.

Haatu;988680 wrote: I didn't understand a word of that gibberish. How did you guys? There's about a minute of her speaking Somali with her father to say that she has thought about it carefully and decided not to wear hijab anymore, so perhaps people listened to that. But more likely is folks read Mooge's heading and the Somali title of the YouTube video to free associate with what they see in the video, since I doubt anyone in this thread speaks Norwegian, though perhaps Cadale can understand a little bit as a Swedish speaker. Marksman;988975 wrote: The hijab has been pushed on many Somali women in the last 10 or so years. It's all mostly about social control. If it were up to free will and actually choosing to wear it we would see more diversity. Nowadays it's almost becoming a cult and those that don't wear it get called out. Nothing is said about Somali boys and men, their behavior and clothing. The hypocrisy is everywhere in Somali communities I have seen. I have even seen hookers with hijabs in Kenya. People shouldn't make religion so superficial. Barely any spirituality left if people continue like this. Hijab on = Muslim. No hijab = non (or bad) Muslim. Ridiculous. It's not just Somalis, it's much of the Muslim world that has reduced the Muslim woman's spiritual identity to her biology and sexuality through the valorization of the hijab as *the* sole marker of piety and religious commitment. The hijab is used far too often as a blunt instrument by the ignorant and malicious to measure one's quality as a woman and as a Muslim. It's actually quite perverse and male-centric when you stop to think about it, as many have come to elevate the hijab to the status of a pillar of Islam for reasons more cultural and social than religious. Let's remember what prostitutes in Somalia look like:

Tallaabo;988853 wrote: I absolutely agree with you. Many people and not just Somalis think that the humanities and social sciences have no relevance in the real world when in fact these disciplines are the like a manual detailing how the giant engine .i.e., the human society functions. Without Somali scholars who are experts in the problems the Somali society is struggling with, solutions to solve these problems would be difficult to come by. And it is precisely in the humanities and social sciences that societal problems and solutions to solve such problems are learned and researched. So we as a society desperate for solutions to many problems need our students to master these academic disciplines. Definitely. This is a refreshing thread, usually I find myself arguing in defense of the humanities and social sciences so it's nice to see others recognizing their importance I was fortunate to have parents open to us studying whatever we wanted (my mom is in the sciences, but my dad studied political science and is a huge reader)... but sadly for hoyo the three of us took after abo and studied history, political science, and anthropology respectively But I can imagine what it's like in households where your parents see more value in certain fields over others, not only does this shape a child's attitudes towards education but also makes it difficult to pursue majors in the humanities/social sciences when your parents consider it a disappointment.

Khayr;988958 wrote: Never knew that Miles Davis was a bad man! How in the world did you find out that memo? Someone posted it on Facebook, interesting huh?

Khayr;988956 wrote: When a heart becomes rusty with forgetfulness of one's self, it loses piety. When piety is lost, then shyness and modesty are forgetton. There is a lack of sense of accountability and maturity in Saff's post. Not every ludacrious idea that emerges in our heads needs to become a post. There are limits and there is xiishood that a young lady like yourself should practice. After all, it is the quality of shyness that is admired in a women's feminine beauty. Sexuality is to be discussed in private and not in the publiv domain and just because they discussed it in the miyi does not make such a topic acceptable for public discussion. This is dumb, sexist and repressive BS Khayr, and you know it. Sexual education is not against Islam, in fact it is encouraged, and sex is discussed openly and candidly in the Quran and Sunnah, as well as in Islamic scholarship as a whole. Clearly neither the Prophet nor the Sahaba (male and female) found anything shameful or immodest about discussing an aspect of human life, in the public domain.

CBS memo re: Miles Davis in 1969:

Alpha Blondy;988935 wrote: this is nice. No it's not, it's terrifying.

My ayeeyo (aabo) is from Galkacyo, but she's never seen it. Would love to go someday, Xamar too... I've never been beyond Somaliland

Dhagax-Tuur;988844 wrote: ^ That wasn't a question. It is an observation of Somalis not knowing that Af Maxaa (Af mahaa) iyo Maay Maay are dialects, not two different languages. Then you should have specified that in your thread title or body... at the moment it reads as you listing the languages you speak, your 'observation' is only apparent to mind readers Did you mean to say they are two languages, not two different dialects?

DoctorKenney;988840 wrote: Yeah, I definitely agree. History would be useful too. Somalia needs diaspora members who are well-versed and educated in the political sciences, as well as economics. These people would be ideal when it comes to running Somalia, and lifting our country from the miserable state that it's in. We need skilled politicians, we don't need clowns like Faroole and Hassan Sheikh running the nation. So many fields in the humanities and social sciences would be useful, I think... beyond political science, history and economics, we have related fields like law, anthropology and sociology that offer different perspectives on politics, culture and society that would be of great relevance to us back home, where much of our political issues are rooted in the current fragmentation of Somali society and the failure of state political institutions (an anthropologist would point out how qabiil is a political institution that has persisted, and a sociologist can analyze the workings of qabyalad and other ideologies, for example).