SomaliPhilosopher;941672 wrote: What do we do Safferz? No adding clans as a surname you say? Well do we have the energy as a people to lead a campaign to create a national identity? Does this new system of federalism cater to the status quo or can such movement be created under such a system? We reside in different times Safferz. An Africa with visonless leaders. Do we have the energy for the alternative, the endorsement and continuation of the very ideology that destroyed us?

Wadani;941673 wrote: Though Mahmouds work on the politicising of Tribes and native identities by the British for British aims is a valuable contribution to works on colonialism, I do have concerns about its generalizability. Yes, no doubt Britain engaged the various Somali clans as independent political bodies, signing treaties with all 4 coastal northern clans seperately in 1884. But I don't believe it would be accurate to extrapolate from this that Britain had a hand in solidifying, making static and giving political agency to Somali clans that were hithero fluid kinship/social systems as u have described them above. Before any white man had ever dreamt of stepping foot in the horn the Somalis were already organized in independent socio-economic and political groupings segmented along clan lines, with a legitimate boqor, ugaas, suldaan, or garaad at the helm of each. In our case, the British just took advantage of age-old divisions, feuds, and bad-blood between the various clans, but had little to do with creating such conditions in the first place. That's precisely the point of indirect rule -- rule through already existing indigenous political structures, which had the effect of entrenching and intensifying tribe for political power and rule. Where there was no recognizable political hierarchy, they created one and appointed "warrant chiefs." The traditional Somali political structure - the segmentary lineage system - is a more horizontal form of social organization than many African societies, so I would not be surprised at all to find that some of the clans that currently have a boqor/ugaas/suldaan/garaad did not have one prior to the 19th century. I know the British certainly appointed native courts and judges (qadi) in British Somaliland, but I haven't done much digging in the archives on this topic yet. That said, I am not saying colonialism is the origin of qabyalad or the reason for our current issues, but it is certainly an important part and it is a legacy of rule that our leaders inherited and intensified in the postcolony. I just think it's important to place everything in its historical context.

I'm here, I just didn't think to open this thread lol

The discussion on qabiil reminded me of Mahmood Mamdani's work on the concept of tribe, and how kinship became fixed and politicized during the colonial era as tribe under British indirect rule, their mode of colonial administration (though he deals primarily with British colonialism, indirect rule was practiced by other European powers as well in many colonies). His most recent book Define and Rule (a collection of lectures he delivered a few years ago) is probably the best single volume I've read on the topic. Somalis have the tendency to believe that our clan system is something that has existed in its current form throughout our history, rather than critically interrogating how qabiil itself - at one point a fluid system of kinship/social relations - was transformed under the colonial state and exploited by the post-independence governments to create the concept of qabiil as we know it now. So if you're interested in a historical account of tribe and how it became coupled with political power under the colonial state and inherited by the post-colonial African states, it's definitely worth taking a look at Mamdani's work (Citizen and Subject is his classic). I also linked to a recent talk he gave about his book at CUNY, moderated by Ali Jimale Ahmed: "Define and Rule focuses on the turn in late nineteenth-century colonial statecraft when Britain abandoned the attempt to eradicate difference between conqueror and conquered and introduced a new idea of governance, as the definition and management of difference. Mahmood Mamdani explores how lines were drawn between settler and native as distinct political identities, and between natives according to tribe. Out of that colonial experience issued a modern language of pluralism and difference. A mid-nineteenth-century crisis of empire attracted the attention of British intellectuals and led to a reconception of the colonial mission, and to reforms in India, British Malaya, and the Dutch East Indies. The new politics, inspired by Sir Henry Maine, established that natives were bound by geography and custom, rather than history and law, and made this the basis of administrative practice. Maine’s theories were later translated into “native administration” in the African colonies. Mamdani takes the case of Sudan to demonstrate how colonial law established tribal identity as the basis for determining access to land and political power, and follows this law’s legacy to contemporary Darfur. He considers the intellectual and political dimensions of African movements toward decolonization by focusing on two key figures: the Nigerian historian Yusuf Bala Usman, who argued for an alternative to colonial historiography, and Tanzania’s first president, Mwalimu Julius Nyerere, who realized that colonialism’s political logic was legal and administrative, not military, and could be dismantled through nonviolent reforms." " frameborder="0" allowfullscreen>

Xaaji Xunjuf;941532 wrote: Blessed in Rwanda on their ID it said Hutu or Tutsi:D How well did that work out?

Apophis;941476 wrote: What's embarrassing is denying the basic societal organisational of a major East African lineage because of a pretty standard and normal (in world historical sense) war between these people of kin. Qabil is a way of life for us Somalis and hate it as much as you like, it cannot be eradicated for it means the eradication and negations of our entire history. The time when qabiil was merely a kinship system of social relations ended a long time ago. It has become hardened and politicized in ways that have been devastating and destructive for all of us. And you folks think institutionalizing it is the solution?

Chimera;941511 wrote: The reason I reserve judgement is because the scope and depth of historic Somali literature has barely been touched upon. Remember that we had various important centers of learning that were considered the cream of the crop in Africa, the likes of Mogadishu and Zeila come to mind, and Harar to a certain extent. We know that other hubs like Timbuktu enjoyed a similar reputation, and through extensive research of private libraries hundreds of thousands of manuscripts were recovered. A similar excercise in Somalia would potentially yield great results, and only after studying those manuscripts and their impact on society of each era can we compare one with the other. I'm not disagreeing with you on the importance of recovering texts, but I find the motivation problematic. It's a recovery project predicated on apologia for being oral, for not having what Westerners would recognize as literary greats, canonical texts and a rich body of literature. We already have all those things in our oral tradition. Even with Timbuktu and its manuscripts, the fact remains that orality is the cultural context for Songhai speaking ethnic groups, and that's the case for Somalis as well. Wadani;941513 wrote: lol, just messin wit u. So name some of the buraanbur poets. Hawa Jibril, Halimo Godane, and Raha Ayanle, to name a few from the nationalist era. It's unfortunate that no one remembers the poems composed by women, but their poems are important too.

Wadani;941501 wrote: What happened to Qawdhan Ducaale, Cabdi Gahayr, Cilmi boodhari, Yowle and Nuur dhagacun? I'm telling ur mom on u, loool. lmao I put "etc" for that reason, I was just listing the first widely recognizable names that came to mind. My canon looks a lot different, and includes buranbur poets as well

There is no question we've had a heterogenous historical experience and nomadic pastoralism is not the definite marker of Somaliness, I'm not arguing that. But what I am saying is that arguing the Somali literary canon is not one of orality is a losing argument. The valorization of the written word is something that emerged in a particular moment in European history - Enlightenment thought linking the act of writing to human reason and rationality - and it is only in that Western framework that the written is held in higher regard than the oral. You're right to point out that colonialism used these textual battles as "evidence" of the backwardness of Africans and their incapability of rational thought. But I think your response is defensive, which only reinscribes the supposed primacy of the textual. The Somali mode of literary production is primarily oral literature. There is nothing wrong with that, unless you believe writing is somehow better.

This is the worst idea I've ever heard, and this professor is an embarrassment to the profession. Nothing offends me more than when Somali professors retrench people's faith in academics and use their position to spew the same old BS.

Chimera;941402 wrote: LOL, to be fair its more of a case where the writer has played with time and put Italian and Portuguese in the same time-line. The indirect source was: "New Arabic documents from Somalia". Interesting, thank you Chimera;941402 wrote: I don't think we can make such a judgement on historic Somali literature yet, even the likes of I.M Lewis have admitted that it was impossible for them to acquire access to private libraries. There is still much we don't know, and all the patterns of superiority and prejudice evident in other nations/ethnicities' literature might very well be present in old Somali literature, including looking down on nomadism. I meant to say that oral literature *is* Somali literature for the most part. There has been Somali writing in other scripts and it's important to point that out because of the widespread assumption that Africans did not write, but it has never been the form of literary production we value as a society. Our literary canon is one of orality, Sayyid Mohamed, Raage Ugaas, Qaman Bulxan, Ali Dhuux, etc. It's just a very different cultural context from those in societies where illiteracy may have been widespread, but saw the writings of people like Alexandre Dumas as their canon nonetheless, despite most of them not being able to access the material.

Chimera;941388 wrote: The world was predominantly "oral" for much of history. The literacy rate in the Ottoman Empire for example was only 5%. Somalis had written books for centuries, there is even one that could be dubbed a steam-punk fantasy lol. (16th century Portuguese with steamships attacking Adal.) Umm Chimera you think you can tell me about a Somali steam punk-like story and not give me a citation so I can go read it? lol But yes, I agree with you on the point of literacy, but I think orality is more than simply the absence of writing. It's a worldview in many ways, a mode of thinking and communication. "High literature" in Somali culture is oral literature, whereas the literary production in societies with writing systems has always been textual and associated with cities and the upper classes (and oral forms like folk stories were seen as rural, lower class, etc art forms). Somali literature is almost a reverse of this, where we venerate the nomad and his oral verse. So it's not only a question of literacy but the forms of literary production societies emphasize and place value on.

Alpha Blondy;941378 wrote: are you now saying you have to claimed ethically and in accordance with recognised forms of sourcing? you're a cheap little cow's udder!. i'm NOT interested in you, anymore. ma garatay? The point in a love song is that YOU wrote it and the lyrics come from the heart, which is why I was touched by the gesture :mad: I never wanted you anyway.

Alpha Blondy;941360 wrote: for goodness sakes, this is NOT classroom, where you reign supreme! its a public forum and i can cut and paste....as, when, how, i see fit! ma garatay, you little waxaar.. :mad: Then send your plagiarized love songs to someone else :mad:

Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar;941340 wrote: Eebbe ha u raxmado Barakoow Buuloow. Jilaa weyn ayuu ahaa. By the way, check this thread . You will know what old members thought about this exact clip five years ago. And if you were that shocked, tana kusii darso: lmao I love it

What are you talking about, Alpha? lol

Alpha Blondy;941343 wrote: the truth of the matter remains, this: Wadani is a Dmitry Medvedev to Al's Putinism.....ee sida uula soco.:mad: You can't blame Wadani for this, no one forced you to plagiarize lyrics :mad:

Alpha, colonial thinking is the assumption that Africans did not and cannot write or think for themselves, which is what makes recovering these old texts produced by Somalis all the more historically significant. It is true that Somali society is predominantly an oral one, but that's not to say that some people were not literate in other languages and wrote in those scripts, either in those languages themselves or to transcribe Somali. Not only do we have some early English writings like this one, but there is an entire body of work which is Somali in Arabic script (something found across various Muslim societies in Africa, known as Ajami literature).

Tallaabo;941155 wrote: Very well said. You are very academic safferz. I like your take on things. Thanks Tallaabo SomaliPhilosopher;941331 wrote: Safferz, are you trying to provide me a glimmer of hope. Enough with the games sxb. I am done!! Hope is how you chose to interpret that information, but I was quite serious -- Wadani emphasizes the reer abti connection because he knows we don't share anything in the more important patrilineal sense

Wadani;940951 wrote: Alpha if u weren't so smug about ur little song, and hadn't called me out I wouldn't have exposed ur plagiarism...oh well. http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=343224979084758&story_fbid=415826188491303 Baby girl you are so Qurux Your face shines like Qorax You smell sweet like Ubax girl don't be like Dhagax I will hold you like Tusbax Baby girl use your Maskax Or i'll throw you like Qodax. Hahahahaaa Alpha what do you have to say for this? Waan ku nacay

Alpha Blondy;941305 wrote: ^ ok. thanks for clarifying. but its still written in English and its highly probable....... this secondary source, is not 100% 'concrete' Somali, since it was written posthumously. 100% or nothing, inaar. p.s - i meet and conversed with the son of Richard Pankhurst. alula was his name. lol it wasn't written posthumously, it was published posthumously. It is a primary source. Why not read the document before speculating Alpha?

Alpha Blondy;941263 wrote: technically speaking, this anthology of sorts is not Somali in origin. it was written by whites. cala kuli xaal...NONSENSE. It's not written by a white person, neither is it an anthology. It's an autobiography written in English by a Somali, with an introduction and historical context written by the British academic who found it and published it in its entirety.

SomaliPhilosopher;941055 wrote: Walahi Stoic you are a wise man. You hear that Wadani? The battle is not over yet!! I may also be part of *your* tribe, for all you know

*Blessed;941062 wrote: Did they close the Red Sea book store in Hargaisa? I think the book fair organisers were trying to address library issue- unfortunately libraries are not seen as a priority. I'm not sure, I just asked a lot of different people and inquired about older bookstores that used to be around and I was told they don't exist. But perhaps there are a few, and you can certainly find some books sold in other stores.

Wadani;941061 wrote: Great stuff. Thanks. No problem. Be sure to take anything Richard Pankhurst says about Somalis with a grain of salt, the man is an Ethiopian as far as I'm concerned lol. His mom Sylvia was awesome though.