xabad;945566 wrote: Racial profiling works, safferz, but obviously in your liberal namby bamby world we should cajole shiftless, irresponsible, thuggish cayaala suuq and not profile them. you would probably even give them state handouts somaha. unbelievable. Well, good to see your racism stays consistent across threads, I guess.

I'm from the north too. I'm just repeating what I know from linguistics, Somali does not have more Arabic derived words than Swahili.

AfricaOwn;945532 wrote: ^^Yeah, crime fell in NYC because of Guiliani's get tough policies, effective preventive measures. Everyone called Guillliani a racist back then, but his record prove itself. Also false, there are economists and other researchers who have shown that the role of policing in that drop in crime is negligible. Crime rates dropped across the United States over that period.

DoctorKenney;945515 wrote: If the stop & frisk procedures are ineffective as you say, then I take back everything I said about advocating it. But something definitely needs to be done. The crime rates are not "low" and we need short-term solutions as well as long-term. NYC has a low crime rate, one of the lowest out of the major US cities (and so does LA, which you brought up earlier as an example of a high crime rate). And no one is disagreeing with the need for solutions, but racial profiling everyday people and infringing on their civil liberties is not one of them.

Wadani;945513 wrote: Do u believe Somalis were enslaved? Of course Somalis were. No one escaped it.

You haven't responded to my point that everything you've said in this thread is premised on your assumption that New York City has high crime rates and that stop and frisk is effective, both of which are false.

African women in Oman - In the second decade of the 19th century, three slave markets were held weekly in Oman. Some captives were kept locally while others were transferred to Turkey, Iran, Arabia and India. Men in Oman In the 17th century, Oman established garrisons and factories in Kilwa and on the islands of Zanzibar and Pemba (Tanzania), in Mombasa (Kenya) and in Pate. In Oman, the cities of Muscat and Sur became important centers for the redistribution of captives. They arrived from the Swahili Coast and were transported throughout the Persian Gulf. In the 1860s, an estimated 13,000 African captives were taken to the Gulf every year and 4,000 to 5,000 were sent to Sur in Oman. Sailors in 1237 - As early as the fifth century Arabs brought Africans to southern Iraq to work their date plantations and salt marshes. During the late ninth century Africans took up arms against the Abbassid slaveholders, taking over several cities. They organized their own state, which had its own standing army, and even minted coins. This 1237 illustration is the work of the Iraqi illuminator Yahya ben Mahmud al-Wasiti. Today an estimated 1.5 to 2 million African descendants live in Iraq, mostly in and around Basra where they represent 15 to 20 percent of the population. Pictured here is a young Iraqi living in the Dhi Qar Province Orphanage, holding a stuffed animal given by the U.S. Army. Afro-Iraqis represent 5 to 6 percent of the total population. To combat racism, they formed the Movement of Free Iraqis in July 2007. It demands the recognition of blacks as an official minority, an apology for slavery, laws against racial discrimination, and representation in Parliament. Here Salah al-Rekhayis, a candidate for provincial council, campaigns in 2009. Enslaved woman in Iran, 1714 - People from Ethiopia, Nubia (Northern Sudan/Southern Egypt) and Somalia; and the East Africans having transited through Zanzibar and other ports of the Swahili Coast were brought to Iran, along with captives from Turkey, Georgia, Armenia and the Caucasus (Russia). Ethiopian and Nubian females were mostly employed as concubines and confidantes in harems and could reach key positions. Females from the Swahili Coast often performed domestic work. Enslaved man in Iran, 1714 - African males were employed as soldiers, field hands, laborers, guards and eunuchs in harems. Eunuchs could wield significant authority and reach high political positions, as well as accumulate economic wealth, since they were paid.

From the Middle East: Bilal al-Habashi - Bilal was among Muhammad’s earliest converts. The son of an enslaved Ethiopian woman, he became a trusted companion of the Prophet. Bilal Al-Habashi (the Ethiopian), as he was also known, was enslaved by Umayyah ibn Khalaf who violently opposed Muhammad and his teachings. When Bilal converted and insisted there was only one God, Ibn Khalaf tortured him. Having heard of Bilal’s tenacity, Abu Bakr (later Sunni Islam’s first caliph) purchased and emancipated him. In this 16th-century print a “Moor” of Arabia is depicted as a black man with curly hair. A black man is portrayed, in the middle, as an elegant learned Muslim. 1800s Slave ship on the Arabian coast, 1873 Slave ship in the Red Sea - During the 19th century, the Ottomans controlled the Red Sea ports, feeding enslaved Africans into the center of their empire in Anatolia (eastern Turkey). By the 1860s, up to 15,000 individuals were carried on Ottoman ships during the annual pilgrimages to Mecca. Africans were sold at Jeddah and Mecca, or were otherwise exchanged for goods, including steel weapons from Damascus, turquoise or carpets from Persia, and silks from China. People from Africa, Turkey, the northern Caucasus, and some from India were enslaved in Mecca. According to C. Snouck, who visited Arabia in the 1880s, “There is a preference for Abyssinians, who have many good qualities, and abound, of all shades from light yellow to dark brown. Circassians [whites] … are little valued on account of their enormous pretensions. … More important, as workers, are the African slaves. They come mostly from the Soudan, and are set to the heavier tasks of building, quarrying, &c.” Men in Arabia, 1889 - The black man on the right holding a rifle appears to be a soldier or guard, one of the occupations of Africans in Arabia. African women at a well - Slavery continued in Muslim lands in the Indian Ocean world well into the 20th century: Saudi Arabia did not abolish slavery until 1962, and Oman did not officially do so until 1970. Slave market in Yemen, 1200s - In 1021, an enslaved Ethiopian, Najah, seized power in the city of Zabit. This image represents the slave market at Zabi—at the time the capital of Yemen—in 1237. The illustration is part of “Al-Maqamat” (Assemblies), a genre of rhymed prose narrative. Both the author and the illuminator of this work were born in Iraq. In Yemen and other Gulf ports, Africans often worked as sailors, dockhands and domestic servants. Between 1865 and 1870, the British Navy settled 2,200 Africans liberated from seized slave ships in Aden. Others were sent to Bombay (Mumbai) and Surat (India), to the Seychelles and to Mauritius.

This is a great virtual exhibit a while back from the New York Public Library. Take the essay and comments on Ethiopia with a huge grain of salt... they do not have a tradition of maritime trade and they certainly were not seafarers in the Indian Ocean world, so I don't know what shoddy scholar wrote that section up. "Habash" or "Ethiopian" historically did not have the same meaning as it does now, but it is common for people to claim much of the continent's history as Ethiopian in the contemporary sense by overlooking this. "Over the course of nearly 20 centuries, millions of East Africans crossed the Indian Ocean and its several seas and adjoining bodies of water in their journey to distant lands, from Arabia and Iraq to India and Sri Lanka. Called Kaffir, Siddi, Habshi, or Zanji, these men, women and children from Sudan in the north to Mozambique in the south Africanized the Indian Ocean world and helped shape the societies they entered and made their own. Free or enslaved, soldiers, servants, sailors, merchants, mystics, musicians, commanders, nurses, or founders of dynasties, they contributed their cultures, talents, skills and labor to their new world, as millions of their descendants continue to do. Yet, their heroic odyssey remains little known. The African Diaspora in the Indian Ocean World traces a truly unique and fascinating story of struggles and achievements across a variety of societies, cultures, religions, languages and times." A few images from South Asia from the collection, you can explore the rest here: http://exhibitions.nypl.org/africansindianocean/index2.php Indian painting depicting the Persian story of Darab fighting the Zanjis (Africans), c.1580 Pakistan has the largest number of people of African descent in South Asia. It has been estimated that at least a quarter of the total population living on the Makran coast are of African ancestry—that is, at least 250,000 men and women can claim East African descent on the southern coast of Pakistan and in the easternmost part of southern Iran. In Pakistan, African descendants are called Sheedi (Siddi.) Many are also called Makrani, whether or not they live in Makran. Much of the vocabulary used by the Afro-Sindhi is a modified Swahili. For instance, the word for shield in Swahili, ngao, is gao among the Afro-Sindhi; the word for moon (or one month) in Swahili, mwesi, is moesi in Afro-Sindhi. In Lyari, a neighborhood of Karachi, there is a Mombasa Street, the name coming from the Kenyan port city. These women are celebrating the Sufi saint Mangho Haji Syed Sakhi Sultan at Manghopir, a suburb of Karachi. Sheedis, like the Siddis of India, also revere the African saint Bava Ghor. In 1490, an African guard, Sidi Badr, seized power in Bengal and ruled for three years before being murdered. Five thousand of the 30,000 men in his army were Ethiopians. After Sidi Badr’s assassination, high-level Africans were driven out and migrated to Gujarat and the Deccan. In the Deccan sultanate of Bijapur, Africans formerly enslaved—they were called the “Abyssinian party”—took control. The African regent Dilawar Khan exercised power from 1580 and was succeeded by Ikhlas Khan. The Abyssinian party dominated the Bijapur Sultanate and conquered new territories until the Mughal invasion in 1686. This portrait is believed to be the Afro-Indian Sultan Burhan Nizam Shah III (1605-1632), who ruled in the sultanate of Ahmednagar, in northwest Deccan. This portrait, putatively of Malik Ambar, is believed to be of his son, Fateh Khan. Fateh Khan married the daughter of another Habshi (Ethiopian), one of the most powerful nobles in the kingdom. In 1631 vizier—top official—Fateh Khan deposed the sultan and installed Hussain Shah in his place. Khan held the real power until 1633, when both were exiled to Delhi and the kingdom was annexed by the Mughals. Malik Ambar's tomb - “A mile outside Raoza [now Khuldabad] proper, north-west, stands the tomb of Malik Ambar, the celebrated minister of Ahmednagar and the founder of the city of Aurangabad. It is built of plain stone, and is surmounted by a lofty dome, the interior of which is carved in various devices, and is remarkable for the echo which it possesses. The grave, which consists of a small stone-covered mound in the usual Mahomedan style, occupies a raised platform in the centre. It contains no inscription of any kind.” Siddis—also called Habshi, Kaphri or African—number about 50,000 in India. It is estimated that 18,000 live in the state of Karnataka, 10,000 in Gujarat and 12,000 in Andhra Pradesh (mostly in Hyderabad). Many Muslim Siddis left after Indian independence in 1947 and settled in Pakistan. Many Siddis do not know much about their origin, but an elder explained: “A long time ago a Hindu king brought my ancestors here from a place called Africa. The Hindu king wanted to have strong and hardworking men to work his property and women to work in his many houses. So he sent ships beyond the horizon and brought our ancestors. Then the Portuguese came and brought Siddis to Goa to work in their houses. Then the British came with more Siddis from Africa to work in their army and fight against the Indians. When they had a chance our forebears fled from Goa and Bombay and settled here and in other parts of Uttara Kannada.”

Overestimating your own importance, are we? Rejection is hard.

SomaliPhilosopher;945474 wrote: Well, thanks for the the character witness. you have tranquilized a potentially messy situation. Maybe as assurance I can call the qalbi police so they can frisk my soul for bad intentions^1 ? Safferz, on a high horse eh? have you joined Chimera on the mountain^2. Bibliography 1. innocent joke made by SP 5/2/2013 2. Second innocent joke made by SP 5/2/2013 I am just trying to maintain the peace in what is a *very* delicate SOL love rectangle (pentagon?)

SomaliPhilosopher;945469 wrote: Btw I am afraid my Safferz psychotic obsession is over. She is all yous Chi. The dhusamareb girl has really grown on me.

SomaliPhilosopher;945468 wrote: I mean no harm . I am a nice guy lol I know you mean no harm, but Chimera is offended and I feel bad dee

I think the "seeing things from afar" idealism comment was a direct response to the positions you've expressed in this thread and has nothing to do with me. I'm inclined to agree that your views on stop and frisk are problematic and not held up by the evidence, but I won't get into that again since you've said you're not interested in the topic anymore.

Chimera;945453 wrote: I get it sxb, you feel threatened by my presence, like a beta-male would to an Alpha, You like Safferz in a certain way, and I get that too, hence the futile attempt at a character assassination, but the reference to me being on a distant mountain is quite ironic, and non-applicable. I wanted to character-assassinate you in return, but I really don't know you as a member, never truly read your posts, nor felt the need. You killed the thread by getting all serious, Chimera lol. I don't think SP was trying to be malicious.

^^ I rolled my eyes so hard reading that, my contact lenses popped out.

Wadani;945444 wrote: This has always been a tactic employed by the dominant power structure. It's akin to the ethiopians use of liyuu booliis in kilinka. A soldier/cop outside the power framework will work tens times as hard and be ten times as brutal to his own people to please his masters, who smugly look on from afar. +1, as Michael Eric Dyson says, you can be black but still a ventriloquist for white supremacy. Skinship is not kinship lol

Chimera;945439 wrote: Its a current reality, how they got there, and how society failed them in education, and economy is irrelevant to fact that as of now "they do make up a disproportionate percentage". Police-officers act in real-time, they don't have the luxury of perusing historic crimes and contemplate what their style of policing might have been or predict future environments and the appropriate police measures that come with it. You brought up the fact that people of colour make up a large proportion of the prison population to justify why they should be profiled on the street by police, and I qualified that by pointing out what you're advocating here - the presupposition of criminality purely on the basis of a person's blackness - is precisely why large numbers of black men are incarcerated. I encourage you to pick up the book I linked to about the US justice system and mass incarceration for a fuller picture, but in short if you are a black person you are more likely to be a victim of police harassment and brutality, more likely to face charges for what young white men get a slap on the wrist or warning for, more likely to be convicted for the same crime as a white person, more likely to receive a harsher and longer sentence than a white person, and more likely to face the death penalty for the same crimes as a white person. I'm just not sure how you don't see the implications of stop and frisk within this wider context of race, policing and incarceration.

DoctorKenney, there are a number of fallacies structuring your argument, all of which are false statistically speaking: 1) New York City has a high crime rate (it has one of the lowest for a major city in the United States, so does Los Angeles... and economists like Steven Levitt have shown the drops in crime rates across the United States have little to do with police practices) 2) Stop and frisk is an effective police tactic (less than 0.2% of stops find weapons on the person, which actually shows it's a failure) 3) The people who are being stopped and frisked are thugs/somehow precipitated the police encounter on account of their own behaviour (do you consider Forrest Whitaker stepping out of a deli suspicious? or my brother and his friends, ironically law students working on these very issues, who were riding the subway? The main critique of stop and frisk is that it profiles anyone and everyone who is black and male and treats them as suspects) So with those assumptions removed, you have no argument.

DoctorKenney;945422 wrote: Wadani, yours is an extreme example. What makes you think that? His experience is closer to the norm.

Wadani;945420 wrote: Sometimes I can't resist my pedantic urges lol. lol I wasn't being sarcastic, I really do appreciate the clarification if I was using the concept incorrectly Chimera;945419 wrote: This is not some racial profiling after a 1 in a million terrorist attack, this is stop & frisks on communities that make up a huge percentage of the prison population. Somali, Indian, Nigerian and Polish men make up a large number of detainees in London, if a cop were to stop me while dressed in a hoodie (never), I would perfectly understand. And I suppose you think people of colour making up huge percentages of the prison population is just because they commit more crimes? lol c'mon now, you're not thinking here. Defend stop and frisk all you want, but the statistics themselves show that it's an ineffective practice, and the campaigns and organizing against it (the only reason Bloomberg and the police commissioner are commenting on this right now is because of a current lawsuit and legislation on the table to curtail it) are becoming hugely successful because they are able to make the case that stop and frisk is a violation of civil liberties.

Wadani;945413 wrote: Cognitive dissonance would only describe his state of mind if he persisted in his support of racial profiling of black men even after witnessing himself or others who fit his 'nonsuspicious' mold being harassed arbitrarily. At this point his point of view is presumabley consistent with what he has actually seen play out in reality, thus precluding the anxiety, frustation and uneasiness borne of conflicting cognitions/beliefs. I was thinking more that Chimera knows better and understands the realities of racism (something that has come through in posts of his that I've read in the past), but supports stop and frisk despite this. But thanks for the clarification, psych major DoctorKenney, I'm not responding to that because you are all kinds of wrong and I'm not sure where to start.

SomaliPhilosopher;945409 wrote: Chimera down, three left to go I hope you're not including Alpha in that figure.

It's disappointing to see how little you seem to understand or care.