As far as I know, the vanishing of Muslim's golden age was mainly caused by religious fanatics like Ibn taymmiah and likes, and secondly unfit Amir's getting to power. Though in honest the latter one came first and the weirdo's followed, then the whole scene started to fall. A distinctive trend has emerged since then, the people become more religious and intolerant -the horror of sunni-shia wars- the rulers got more ruthless and become ocean sunk in corruption, and ofcourse the turban of knowledge was displaced into Europe. PS. It's good to know that, even as this was unfolding, other parts of Muslim-land were doing well off, but the infection got to them in the end.

Am little bit lost, couldn't get the idea after scrolling back and forth. Ariirow are you trying to preach SOL'ers to behave better than they do now

Khayr: That is exactly what its all about - self interest motivation to turn Somalia into a Secular state again (like in the Siyad Barre days, looking all european and adopting euro culture). Ailamos and B are just not being honest with themselves. They want a Somalia that advocates for what is in their hearts - secular liberal ideals, that come into conflict with our deen and way of life. Is it hard for you to understand that human beings have choice, and if that choice happens to be in odd with yours how would you deal with it? If you look deep into how this universe is managed -by whoever you believe in, you will see the live and let live concept is rooted. Why God gave us a choice if we cannot act upon, be it right or wrong. I read many responses that see the negative side of secularism, and based on that are standing against it, its their personal choice and nothing wrong with that anyone would say, but the problem arises when you find out, these same people are making a choice for you without your even approval of it, and suddenly you're living by not how you would like to live but by others choice. There is a very simple logic that is involved: How can a matter that you've the freedom to take it or leave it, how that can become a law that all including the ones who didn't accept it must abide to? The Quran tells us, that God created Adam when the angels didn't want it to happen because of the choices human beings are going to make, but as known God argues back that they know little, and goes forward with it. I as a humble observer, see that as a GOD given freedom of choice, and this upholds as long as I am not intruding into other borders of choice. C&H- girls always rule!

^ That was funny, didn't hear it for a long time. Interesting topic Mr. B, what I know is that, Islam was introduced to Somalia long before even Arabian peninsula get the message, this means before Egypt, Syria, and the rest. We as a people never had any issues with the faith, and it blended perfectly with our heritage. We didn't lose our language like so many places around the world that totally has been taken over by the outsider figure -which ever it maybe. Our current problem is the new conquest by wahabis to dismantle every good aspect of our life, and replace it with religious dogma, so we can ever be followers, what a shame that this is being done by nobody else but people who claim to be Somalis.

Ailamos I salute you. I came across this article written by African Christian studies -am NOT Christian, it argues that Christianity must not merely collaborate with modernity, but must surpass it or transcend it. The new evangelisation has to bring about a social transformation, in which social responsibility and solidarity replace economic rationalism as the dominant motivation. This, in turn, depends on an internal transformation within Christianity itself. If you need to read the full article, here is the link: http://www.sedos.org/english/shorter.htm I am fully aware this has nothing to do with Somalis in particular, but its a good example how religious Christians are racing with religious Muslims to confront the secular way of living -think before you take this last part out of context. In honest I must say, some aspects that have been put forward by different sides to explain ones point of view are daring to consider. B what you talking about :confused:

O shoot, look Tuujiye aka wax-qaloocis, I confess, I don't follow much of what he writes in SOL since his first pitch was to greet ladies only, beside that, I've come to know this Karl guy to be one of few who virtually wages jihad against different-minded people, like you and some others do. Its kind of a real depiction of the current Somali situation, like Xisbul islam and Alshabab, who seemingly eject from the same hole but would kill each other, so gladly will hand both of you guys cutting edge swords, and the result should be one of two, in which the outcome shall be a joyous moment for me

Mujaahidiinta, idinka ley sayf ha isla dhicina

Justice must be served, the man tried to kill innocent people, he deserves to be taken away and dragged in courts andd spend the rest of his life behind bars.

..but the resistance to both change and the formulation of a base from which we can at least attempt to reach that ideal is what Tuujiye stands for. It boils down to that rigid mindset these individuals have, to the extent, not even realizing they're a living proof of the falsity of their argument.

That statement was made in honest attempt to reach logic with you, before I read you're only discharging my thoughts, disregard it.

Just to further the take-advantage of this, go ahead and read some articles on the subject before you respond, that will save us a tonne of words just to explain to every newcomer what we're talking about.

Originally posted by Norfsky: Tuujiye, The only I have taken seriously so far is JB. Kuwa kale waxba islama hayaan. Che, the Irish Then give us air sxb, don't waste our energy. There is a troll section where all the old and no-use folks hangout, so do join them.

Norf, there is a wave of psychological disorder in the Mideast in general over the last 200 years that is harboring everything negative in life. As Ailamos pointed out, we're practicing Islam since its beginnings, why do you've the impulse to import foreign cultural faults into our life's and call it a religion. Tuujiye, it's hard to be on your side when you're calling people gaal and other forms of degrading names. Remember if you get a 'bad-taste reply' you're the reason why.

Okay, your point has arrived. I could only ask you to spend the rest of your life in a place you don't deem as alkoliste home. Just be real to yourself. Honestly, hypocrisy has no limits. Yaab badanaa!

Rudy, Who is the alkoliste you talking about??

^ You're seeing the future of Somalia sir, stand high for these souls. Ailamos, peacenow, Napoleon, thank you. I do have a great hope for this to become the only reality soon, after the Somali's have witnessed the tribalism, TFG's and finally the bloody islamists, we're destined to secularism more than ever.

I couldn't disagree with you more B, living under secular regime doesn't mean we all going to believe Darwinism, and follow Scientology to interpret things around us, it simply means live and let live as my understanding goes.

Originally posted by Kool_Kat: quote:Originally posted by NGONGE: ^^ You post rubbish, I'll comment on it. Now go jump and take GD with you please. No-No-Noooooo! I really like GD... :cool: After five pages, wili wiilka wax lacag ah la'isuguma dardarin! Sheemo reer London, Juxa eyka koow tahay, Xaaji NG kuxigo, Malikana ku reeban tahay... That's most definitely mutual KK. You know what's so funny when reading this, McCain rallies in 08 come to mind, you know those old white baggers saying everything heinous about the black guy, and they always tend to take the upper moral ground in their arguments, now am not sure if Ngonge likes in SOL are that ignorant/munaafiq/xaasid/ or they just don't wanna give air to B likes

I don't get why the old people keep bragging about this guy, leave it if you can't make little smile on his face at least.

^ It's a nice piece, you won't regret

C'mon man, it's doable.

Well, let's assume you're getting thrown out, what I am saying is, that can only happen if it was intended, for the pleasure of it, I mean being homeless is kind of exciting if you've never experience it before. I assure you, you're not from that sect, and its not school of thought, could be school of butcher or something, so don't give a damn

Are you kidding me someone with your writing skills should never ever be evicted. .. also spies and takfiir's do exist in this virtual domain, they will single you as a gaal if you don't fall for there sweet talk buddy.

Don't like to do copy and paste, but I find this guy says almost everything I'd like to share with my fellow countrymen ..and women ofcourse in a more eloquent way. Have a nice read. Muuse Yuusuf Saturday, April 03, 2010 In response to a recent article that I have posted at Hiiraan.com commenting on President Sharif‘s visit in Britain, some readers who contacted via email, were critical of my proposition that rather than supporting extremism in Somalia those Somalis in the Diaspora particularly in the West should learn more about secularism and its benefits in order to help Somalia gear towards a more secular state. They felt that it would be foolish to advocate secularism in Somalia, a Muslim country, and any event it would be up to the Somali people to decide on a secular or Islamic state. Also, some argued that because of the civil war, which has destroyed the very fabric of the Somali society, where a mixture of customary laws, Islamic faith teachings and Western secular thoughts seem not to have worked, that Islam is the only common identity and denominator that could be used to remould the broken foundation. And therefore in order to do that one needs an Islamic republic. However, others were supportive of my suggestion, and were happy with the idea of secularism in Somalia. The views of the last group are probably rare because of the current madness and hype around religion created by political Islam and the atmosphere of intolerance that it has created in our country where different groups are vying for power in order to implement their different versions of Islam. Secular Somalia forever Before I proceed with the rest of my article, including explaining the concept of secularism and its benefits, it would only be fair to remind the readers of the proposition that I put forward so that those who have not read the previous article can reflect and ponder on the question. The proposition is as following: “Another appoint that kept me wonder was if President Sharif was welcomed by the government of a secular state which is now providing sanctuaries for hundreds of thousands of Muslim Somalis – whose religious rights are protected by the state – rather than supporting extremism, why we Somalis can’t learn from our experiences in this country and other western countries in order to learn more about secularism and its benefits? So that we can try to help our country gear towards a more secular state similar to what we had before the collapse of the central government in 1991? Imagine what the situation of thousands of Somalis in this country would be if the UK was a fundamentalist Christian state where its citizens and residents were obliged and expected to adhere to its Christian faith? And those who fail to conform would be subjected to severe punishments” http://www.hiiraan.com/op2/2010/mar/comments_on_president_sharif_s_recent_visit_in_britain.aspx, Indeed it is a reality that Britain is among many other secular states worldwide that provide sanctuaries to hundreds of thousands of Muslim Somalis. Regardless of their religious or ethnicity Somalis, like many other ethnic groups, have equal obligations and rights to state protection, access to social services, economic and even political opportunities. And in addition to that, their religious rights are being protected by the state. This is thanks to secularism in these countries. So the question is why support a fundamentalist state or even a theocracy state in Somalia when you can see and are still enjoying benefits of secularism in this country. One can understand those back home, who have not experienced secularism and its benefits, but how can one understand those in the Diaspora enjoying the benefits of secularism but only to advocate extremism and religious intolerance in Somalia? Although this writer does not pretend to be an expert on secularism, it would only be fair to highlight some aspects of the concept and its benefits in this article, particularly to show how it would be wise to encourage and advocate the concept in Somalia at this particular moment in history where religious intolerance and extremism are rife and are dismantling the very social and cultural fabric of our beloved country. The following is what experts say about the concept of secularism, which has its intellectual and philosophical origins in Roman, Greek philosophers and even in medieval Muslim scholars: Secularism is the concept that government or other entities should exist separately from religion and/or religious beliefs. In one sense, secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and freedom from the government imposition of religion upon the people, within a state that is neutral on matters of belief. In another sense, it refers to the view that human activities and decisions, especially political ones, should be based on evidence and fact unbiased by religious influence. The purposes and arguments in support of secularism vary widely. On one hand, it has been argued that secularism is a movement toward modernization, and away from traditional religious values. This type of secularism, on a social or philosophical level, has often occurred while maintaining an official state church or other state support of religion. Others argue that state secularism has served to a greater extent to protect religion from governmental interference, while secularism on a social level is less prevalent. Within countries as well, differing political movements support secularism for varying reasons.[1] In other words, separation of power of the church, mosque or theological doctrine from the state so that religious considerations do not hold much weight on political decisions, and that state institutions, and economic, social and educational policies are not influenced by religious grounds/considerations. For example, teaching the theory of creationism in schools would not be allowed to overtake the theory of evolution, two different concepts in explaining origins of species. In a fundamentalist Christian or Islamic state there would probably be more emphasis on creationism on the expenses of evolution but in a secular state it would be possible to teach both concepts on equal terms. This would be a good start for young enquiring minds, who, if given a well-researched information and balanced curriculum can make up their minds about these huge philosophical concepts. In a democratic secular state, such as Canada etc. people will still have their religious rights, and should be able to practise their faith but religion will only be in the private sphere and not in the public domain. The following are some examples that illustrate benefits of secularism in today’s world. The vast majority of the 192 UN member states (probably 90%) are secular states with different reasons, practices and stages in implementing the concept of secularism, except very few states, such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan (former secular states), and now some parts in southern Somalia where “Islamist” and extremists are planning to introduce a fundamentalist Islamic state similar to that of Saudi Arabia or Iran. France: A country with a population of 65,447,374 is secular state with religious freedom guaranteed by its constitution. Catholics 51%, agnostics or atheists 31%, 10% from other religions or being without opinion, Muslims 4%, Protestant 3%, Budhist 1%, Jewish 1%. India: A country with a population of 1,178,900,000 and with many different ethnic and religious groups, including Hinduism, Islam, Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism etc. Although communal and religious violence have been an issue since independence, it is probably the state of secularism that is helping these different ethnic and religious groups, though not perfect, to co-exist in harmony and peace, and also to practise their faith as much as they like. Ethiopia: A neighbouring country with a population of 79,221,000 with different ethnic and religious groups (Christians 62.8%, Muslims 33.9% and 2.6% traditional, 0.6 other) is a living good example of a tolerant state-nation. Although not perfect and there is much work to be done different ethnic and religious groups live side by side in peace and harmony, as they practise their faith as much as they like. Churches are being built alongside mosques. Imagine if the state were a fundamentalist Christian or Islamic? The writer can go on listing many more secular states with different experiences and stages in the implementation of secularism but above examples are more than enough to make the point. Although there is a good point about using Islam as a common identity and denominator and therefore an Islamic state would be the logical conclusion of any political settlement, however, because of the current atmosphere of intolerance and religious bigotry that has divided the country into opposing religious fiefdoms, it is indeed questionable, whether such arguments could be sustained, or indeed are desirable. There you have a country – particularly the south – where people are being persecuted or killed for their religious beliefs, or are being ostracised for heresy etc. So the question is given the current bad atmosphere would you encourage or discourage religion? In my view, what Somalis need to do right now is to de-sensitize religion and use secularism as a base for reconstituting a united secular Somali state. After all Somalia has been a secular state since independence in which religion belonged to the private sphere. Current stable regions, such as “Somaliland” and “Puntland” seem to be going towards secularism and that should be supported. For those who advocate for an Islamic state in Somalia which, according to their views, would create a tolerant, stable and progressive society, need only to look at the state of affairs in Saudi Arabia and Iran where tolerance is out of question and religious minorities are being persecuted; where theocracy is being used to repress dissent and different political opinions, and to muzzle creative, questioning and enquiring minds. I appreciate that I am probably a lone voice for many of voiceless secular Somalis with untold stories, who if given a choice between a secular or theological state, provided they are given correct and balanced information and without coercion or intimidation, would probably vote for secularism for Somalia. Muuse Yuusuf Myuusuf3@hotmail.com http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism PS. Courtesy of HOL.

Mr. B doesn't sound at all the type of person he is portraying here, maybe he is writing a book of how people/Somali's in particular react when they're asked to offer help. Anyways shelter is better than asking people money. Good luck