Generalization It's unbelievale all the faarax out there "enjoying" their lives and next thing on SOL lecturing people religiously on virginity!!! It is true we value virginity so much..Stop generalizing faarax's as if there are no "Hot Faarax's" .. or what is your description of being Hot.The ones who are not Virgins whether a man or a woman are not true muslim characters ..Facts are facts.Do u really know what you are talking to many eligible faarax'z anyway? If you don't value virginity, this is a different thread altogether.. Makalajabti

^^Simple...Let the best out of somalia Come... Modesty, meanwhile please take care

You really understood My thread..Thank you much But why did it take you soooo long?

My question is what exactly are you liberated from? Can anyone of you gils tell me who is that had you under contol. If you think wearing short skirs, puting on lipstick, walking down the street is liberation, then I would suggest you think head, because the consequence could be rape, abuse on the street, sinnful actions and so on. I am really saddened to hear that some girls think by unvieling their beauty to the public is what is going to make them free and empowered women, then I have really bad news for you, See How ISLAM has given the women liberation bu it's own words, Quraan Surah (33:35) For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah’s praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward. Can someone please find me a verse from any OTHER HOLY BOOK of any other religion like this.. You will NEVER find that kind of "Liberation" in any other religion let alone them speaking about "The Skirt and modelling industry"..as liberation

Introduction In the name of Allah, We praise Him, seek His help and ask for His forgiveness. Whoever Allah guides none can misguide, and whoever He allows to fall astray, none can guide them aright. We bear witness that there is no one (no idol, no person, no grave, no prophet, no imam, nobody worthy of worship but Allah Alone, and we bear witness that Muhammad (saws) is His slave-servant and the seal of His Messengers. The issue of women’s rights has been one the most discussed subject matters of our time. Whether in Islam or any other religion, attacks have been made to these rights, or have been simply misinterpreted. Since Islam (Submission) is the one true religion of God, any law whether it concerns women or any other subject matter cannot be under any circumstance, less than perfect. However, there are obviously going to be many misinterpretations or misunderstandings of such subject matters. These concerns could be raised up by people who sincerely want the truth and are seeking true guidance or by people who are completely convinced by what they believe in and reject any other belief even if it is convincing. Critics have brought up points regarding women in Islam and by Allah’s will, we would be able to shed light into the subject at hand, and show the truth of the matter. SOME WORRIES ON WOMEN IN ISLAM AND HOW THEY WERE ANSWERED BY ISLAM 1. Husbands are a degree above their wives in a legal context. The Quran in Sura 2:228 says: . . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . . . At first, this verse appears positive: "Wives have the same rights as the husbands." However, too often a verse has a sting in it, as verse 228 does: "men are a degree above them in status." This principle of gender inequality reflects Arab culture of the seventh century. If Allah and Muhammad improved on this patriarchy, then they did not go far enough. This verse occurring in the revealed Quran is troubling for those of us on the outside of Islam. The verse indicates that the nature of womankind is being challenged in a way that transcends culture, as we shall see. Therefore, traditional Muslims, especially legal scholars, are permitted to apply this verse to the world of today and outside of Arabia. These Muslims believe that the entire Quran reflects the values of Allah, the god of this world, so Sura 2:228 should be carried out everywhere—it is universal. WE REPLIED TO THE WORRIES LIKE THIS The Quran in Sura 2:228 says Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah hath created in their wombs if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them according to what is equitable; but men have a degree over them and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise. Before I begin explaining this verse. I would like to know where CRITICS arrived with the conclusion that men are a degree over women in status. Reading the verse above, clearly the words status is not included and that, as mentioned above, a clear misinterpretation of the Quranic verses.If he meant by status as in authority then certainly he is correct. Men have the responsibility of protecting, providing, supporting, and fulfilling the requirements and needs of women given to him by God. This certainly doesn’t mean that women can’t exercise this right given to men, however it would give her too much of a burden, simply because she has other responsibilities to do. THE CHRISTIAN VIEW ON WOMEN Because even the New Testament teaches that husbands have authority over their wives. Colossians 3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord". 1 Corinthians 11:3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (This shows a hierarchy of authority, funny notice how Christ is under god. But more importantly notice how the woman is under the man) So if critics want to use this criteria, then we would also have to use it against the Bible and declare that the Bible teaches that women are inferior! If he meant by status as in degrading women to men, or that women are less honorable than men then perhaps we can go back to the Quran and see what God has to say about the critics Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 33 Surah Ahzaab verse 35: For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise; for them has Allah prepared Forgiveness and a Great Reward. Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 33 Surah Ahzaab verse 72: Allah hath promised to believers, men and women, Gardens under which rivers flow to dwell therein and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss is the Good Pleasure of Allah: that is the supreme felicity. Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 3 Surah Ale-Imraan verse 195: .. And their Lord hath accepted of them and answered them: "Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you be he male or female: ye are members one of another; those who have left their homes or been driven out therefrom or suffered harm in My Cause or fought or been slain verily I will blot out from them their iniquities and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath; a reward from the presence of Allah and from His presence is the best of rewards." ............................................................................................... 2. Men are superior to women in a domestic context. The Quran in Sura 4:34 says: Men are managers of the affairs of women because Allah has made the one superior to the other. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 329) For the historical and literary topical contexts of Sura 4, click here. The verse goes on to permit husbands to hit their wives if the husbands merely fear highhandedness. Readers may view that article here. At the end, it has many links to modern interpretations of Sura 4:34 and to arguments for wife beating today. The essential point to notice here is the Quran’s clear explanation of why men manage the affairs of women: because mankind is superior to womankind. The verse says that Allah made them this way. It strikes at the nature of womankind, beyond just women’s social roles in seventh-century Arabia. ARE MEN SUPERIOR THAN WOMEN IN ISLAM? Allah says in the Noble Quran "Men are (meant to be righteous and kind) guardians of women because God has favored some more than others and because they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth. (In their turn) righteous women are (meant to be) devoted and to guard what God has (willed to be) guarded even though out of sight (of the husband). As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) separate them in beds (and last) beat them (lightly). But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great. (4:34) “The first reason then why men are “qawwamun†over women is their physical ability to protect women. The second is that "they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth." Although the Holy Qur'an permits women to earn and own wealth, it expects that men will generally be able to earn more than women because of the natural differences between them. This means that they will generally be responsible for the economic needs of women and this responsibility also makes them “qawwamunâ€. In thinking of men as “qawwamun†over women we should not limit their role to mere protectors and providers. Properly taking care of women requires more than ensuring their physical security and providing food and shelter. It also requires looking after their psychological and emotional needs which can be summed up in terms of the need for love (30:21). Thus man's role in the relationship between men and women (as husbands and wives) generally consists of three things: protecting the woman, looking after her economic needs and giving her love.†Before I give a reply to what CRITICS had said about the “beatingâ€, an important point should be mentioned that is crucial to Islamic understanding. Muslims receive information from two authenticated sources, which are the Noble Quran and the preserved authentic Sunnah (way of) the Messenger of God. I say this because as Muslims we believe that no people in this world worshiped Allah and understood His message more than His Messengers and Prophets. The point regarding the beating of women is yet another point that is clearly misunderstood and misinterpreted. Since the Quran clearly mentions the word beating, lets take a look at how the messenger of Allah(Peace be upon him) understood this verse and applied it in his day to day life, since he himself received the message first hand and Allah directed us to follow him and to look at him as a perfect example. The Prophet (saws) said: ‘The most perfect Muslim in the matter of faith is one who has excellent behavior; and the best among you are those who behave best towards their wives.’ Allah's Messenger (saws) said, "The best of you is he who is best to his family, and I am the best among you to my family." Allah's Messenger (saws) said: ‘a believing man should not hate a believing woman (his wife); if he dislikes one of her characteristics, he will be pleased with another. The Prophet (saws) said, "One who treats badly those under his authority will not enter Paradise." In the light of the above hadiths by the messenger of Allah, we clearly see that he was the most gentle kind hearted father, husband, brother, leader, to his women. Never did he beat any of his wives or relatives for that matter.. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) explained what “beating should be†which is a light tap that leaves no mark. He further said that the face must be avoided. Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush. Similarly, the last hadith shows how severe the situation would be on the Day of Judgment if one treats badly whoever he has under his authority. If one looks at the statistics of where a women gets beaten more often: whether in an Islamic society or by those who champion the cause of ‘women’s rights’, he will realize that the women is most abused, humiliated, assaulted, beaten, hurt, raped and killed in these very western, un-godly societies! May Allah protect our mothers and our daughters and our wives from this humiliation, and honor them to live under the Mercy and Grace of Allah in Islam. WHO ARE THE ABUSERS In 29% of all violence against women by a lone offender, the perpetrator was an intimate (husband,ex-husband, boyfriend or ex-boyfriend). HONOR KILLINGS IN AMERICA? Of the 5328 women murdered in 1990, FBI data indicate that about half or more of them by a husband or boyfriend. A 1993 national poll found that 34% of adults in the United States report having witnessed a man beating his wife or girlfriend and that 14% of women report that a husband or boyfriend has been violent with them. THE ECONOMIC FACTOR IN WOMEN'S ABUSE *Women aged 19 to 29 and women in families with incomes below $10,000 were more likely than other women to be victims of violence by an intimate. So the above statistics reflects how women are treated in a so called “Christian Countryâ€. Should we still blame Islam for that? According to the Qur'an the relationship between the husband and wife should be based on mutual love and kindness. Allah says: "And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect." (Ar-Rum: 21) The Qur'an urges husbands to treat their wives with kindness. [in the event of a family dispute, the Qur'an exhorts the husband to treat his wife kindly and not to overlook her positive aspects]. Allah Almighty says: “Live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.†(An-Nisa’: 19) WHY WOMEN ARE THE MAJORITY IN THE HELL FIRE(ISLAM) The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and found poor people forming the majority of its inhabitants; and I looked at Hell and saw that the majority of its inhabitants were women." . DO U THINK WOMEN ARE THE MAJORITY IN THE HELL? If the ratio of women to men here on planet earth is larger, then it is only logical that the ratio of women to men in hell would also be larger. UK MEN AND WOMEN WORLD POPULATION.. Go to this site and check out the ratio of women to men in every country. You will see that most of them are larger. CIA This hadith shows that there are more women in Paradise Chapter : The first group that would be admitted to Paradise would be like the face of the full moon and the description of their qualities and their spouses. Muhammad reported that some (persons) stated with a sense of pride and some discussed whether there would be more men in Paradise or more women. It was upon this that Abu Huraira reported that Abu'l Qasim (the Holy Prophet) (may peace be upon him) said: The (members) of the first group to get into Paradise would have their faces as bright as full moon during the night, and the next to this group would have their faces as bright as the shining stars in the sky, and every person would have two wives and the marrow of their shanks would glimmer beneath the flesh and there would be none without a wife in Paradise. If the ratio of women to men here on planet earth is larger, then it is only logical that the ratio of women to men in hell would also be larger. The Prophet is simply stating the crime of most of the women in hell. Read on.. [/url] Q"]http://www.islamhelpline.com/view_answers.asp?QAID=1610]Q & A[/url] Q & A There is no word about the husbands’ ingratitude and harshness. ISLAM IS FAIR TO ALL( WOMEN AND MEN) The religion of Islam is fair and just and God Almighty has put a fair test and trail for both males and females in this world. As mentioned in the above article and reply, God never judges according to sex but according to works and deeds. Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 103 Surah Al-Qariah verses 6-11: Then he whose balance (of good deeds) will be (found) heavy Will be in a life of good pleasure and satisfaction. But he whose balance (of good deeds) will be (found) light Will have his home in a (bottomless) pit. And what will explain to thee what this is? (It is) a Fire Blazing fiercely! HOLY QURAAN Chapter 49, verse 3 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). Most Hadiths are for both sexes however as you have clearly put down for us, some hadiths are for women and some are for men. If you have continued your extensive research then maybe you will come across several hadiths regarding men. You can read more on all this information at Answering Christianity and Their Propaganda

Worth noting, ,...until he says "SadaqAllahu Atheem." I'm not sure, but apparently in some cultures that translates to "OK sisters, you may take off your scarves." I say worth noting coz you see, we have a lot of us muslim children who don't know or comprehend ISLAM properly.Sadaqallahul cadhim.. Sadaqa Allahu 'l-Azim translates as "Allah Most Mighty has told the truth" and it is normally said after the recitation of the Qur'an in order to verbally verify what one has read to be the truth from Allah most High.However, it cannot be considered an etiquette or necessary to say it at all after one's recitation since the belief of it is in one's heart. Likewise, if one wants to say it, it cannot be not considered a bid'a either unless maybe if someone thinks of it to be necessary. And Allah knows best. Please go back to your ISLAM'C basics for you and your children.

Originally posted by The Flipmode: quote:Originally posted by JaWaRiYa: imagine you are in your menopausal period..............iam sure you can spare him. we are now slightly reasoning.. any other suggestions.. Jawahir, that was a good suggestion, I just requested if there somebody who has a similar motif* ..will this help Somalia anyway..

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS POSTED BY CHRISTIANS Now as I promised, here are the answers to the questions many have asked me connected with my choice of Islam as a religion: 1. "How could you have turned your back on the perfect plan of salvation of Jesus Christ on the cross for you sins?" Answer: Your question implies you have not considered the similarities and teachings of the Bible and the Quran. "ISLAM" means - "Surrender, submit and obey your Lord in sincerity and peace." Whoever is trying to do this, is a "MUSLIM." If someone believes in Almighty God as One God and One Lord and wants to commit their life to serving Him and obeying His Commandments, then that person will be in the right way and they will be "saved" according to God's Mercy. No one can take the sins of another and the guilty must stand accused for what they have done. It will be up to Almighty God to Forgive or Punish according to His Judgment on that Day. According to the remains of the translations of the Bible [see: Bible, A Closer Look] Jesus, peace be upon him, did not preach a message of salvation by worshipping him. This was something added later by Saul (who later became Paul). We find clear statements indicating salvation would come only through acknowledging Almighty God as One God and worshipping Him with all the heart, mind and strength. Jesus, peace be upon him, taught his followers to worship "My God and your God, My Lord and your Lord." Again, according to the remains of the English translation of the Bible, we see the one on the cross crying out a very blasphemous statement, "Eli! Eli! Lama sabachthani?" (Which being translated means, "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me?") This statement on the cross clearly indicates the one on the cross is not pleased with the situation nor does he consider it right or just. Therefore, one would have to conclude this was not something Jesus approved of nor did he accept, or else someone else was on the cross in his place. Either way you look at it, the one on the cross did not accept this as a plan of salvation. The Quran is absolutely in agreement with these teachings and Muslims do worship the same God and Lord of Jesus, Moses, Abraham and Adam, peace be upon them all. The Quran states in many places, no one will be taken to task for the sins of another, nor can anyone carry the burden of another. We will all be on our own on that Day. And I ask Allah to have Mercy and Forgiveness for all those who believe in Him, ameen. JESUS IN ISLAM I consider that I have not left the teachings of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him (by joining ISLAM). On the contrary, I feel much closer to Jesus, peace be upon him, and I look forward to His return on earth more than ever before. Now I am worshipping the same God he worships and I serve the same Lord he serves, in the very same way he does. Jesus prayed to Almighty God and taught his followers to do the same. I am simply doing what he commanded to the best of my ability and ask Almighty God to accept it. 2. "Do you consider you were really "saved" and that you had in fact, been "born again?" Answer: The Baptists have a statement, "Once saved, always saved." I asked one of them about this and he agreed it was true. Then I mentioned at one time I had become a Baptist (in my teen years) but now I was a Muslim. I had also been "saved" and baptized at the age of 12. I had accepted the very statement of Jesus being the way, the light and the truth and no man coming on to the Father except by him. I understood these statements to mean I must follow Jesus and his teachings. Therefore, I read the Bible for myself and did not let others tell me what to think about what I was reading. The Bible states that Jesus prayed for salvation for himself in the garden of Gethsemane in this way, "Let this cup pass from me, even so, Thy Will be done." This prayer was repeated by Jesus, peace be upon him, a number of times and it is mentioned in more than one Gospel. Yet, according to Biblical accounts, the cup did not pass from him and his prayers were NOT ANSWERED. Islam teaches us his prayers were answered and he did not have to endure the cruel treatment and death on the cross, but rather he was taken up while still alive and is with Almighty God even now and ready to return in the Last Days to bring victory to the believers. Additionally, we find Jesus, peace be upon him, teaching his disciples to pray like this, "Our Father in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name, Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from all evil. For Thine is the Kingdom and the Power and Glory, forever and ever, ameen." Every Muslim I have met accepts every single word of this pray with the exception of calling "Allah" our "Father." Muslims consider it better to call on Almighty God by His Names, which we do consider to be "Hallowed." 3. "How did your family respond to your conversion?" Answer: This is always difficult for families to adjust to and it usually takes time. My family was no exception. Although my wife, children entered into Islam and eventually my father came to declare Islam to be the way of salvation for himself, still my own mother and many others in my family resented our going to Islam at first. Eventually, things became more normalized and we do stay in touch, although they are all still very much involved in Christianity. Allah promises to test those who declare their faith in Him with many types of difficulties and family is one of those mentioned as a test in the Quran. I do pray for them and ask Allah to guide them to the very best in this life and the very best in the Next Life. But it is up to Allah if He wants them to be in Submission to Him (Islam means, submission to Allah) or not. 4. "How about your congregation? What did they say?" Answer: I never had my own church. I was a music minister in the Church of God (Anderson, Indiana branch) in Texas and did my preaching to businessmen and informal gatherings. Those who knew me for the most part did not object and some even came to Islam, but there were a few who felt very upset and accused me of "Turing my back on Jesus, peace be upon him." No matter what I tried to say or do, these particular individuals would not listen nor did they want to learn anything about Islam. 5. "Did you experience a lot of difficulties in changing religions?" Answer: Certainly anyone who wants to consider Islam in these times, just as in times gone by, will have to recognize there will be certain difficulties and tests along the way. The followers of Jesus, peace be upon him, were highly criticized and persecuted even until death (read what Paul said he used to do to them in the Bible; Book of Acts of the Apostles). Those who followed Muhammad, peace be upon him, suffered at the hands of their very own tribes, yet they were determined to continue to worship Almighty God Alone, without partners and submit to His Will. The biggest problem with non-Muslims, is their lack of understanding and lack of knowledge as to what Islam is really all about and who the Muslims are supposed to be. I pray for them all and ask Allah to forgive the Muslims for not showing a better picture to everyone. 6. "Who was responsible for converting you?" Answer: As Muslims we believe that it is only Allah who guides the people and whoever He guides will not be misguided and whomever He lets go astray none will be able to guide them. As such, it means we don't believe anyone really can "convert" someone else. Also, we accept that all children are born in the natural state of submission to Almighty God and as such that means they are Muslims. Should a child die he or she would go to Heaven as they are not responsible for what they do not understand. 7. "Don't you ever think about coming back to being a Christian?" Answer: "Christian" indicates a follower of Christ. When Jesus, peace be upon him, returns to earth in the Last Days, all the Muslims will be obliged to follow him. But we would not call ourselves "Christians" anymore than he would. He never called himself or his companions "Christians." The Bible tells us they were never even called "Christians" until Paul was preaching his message in Antioch. 8. "Doesn't it bother you to have left the way of peace, justice and love for a religion of hatred, violence and oppression toward women and others?" Answer: All the prophets, peace be upon them all, called the people to worship Almighty God as One God and One Lord. As such, those who did not want to submit to Almighty God would combat them and treat them with hostilities, even unto death, as Paul had done while still being a Pharisee. The prophets, peace be upon them all, did encourage their followers to live in peace and deal with people in justice and certainly love is the highest form of emotion a human can have for another human being. Yet at the same time, believers have to defend themselves, their families and the religion itself, lest those who are not believers should remove belief from the very face of the earth. Islam, like Christianity preaches a message of peace and tolerance - to a point. But when this is no longer possible without totally compromising and loosing one's way of life and belief system, then there is no alternative except to engage in open combat against those who are combating against the believers. Jesus called upon his followers to sell their coats and buy swords. He explained that he did not come with peace, but rather a sword. He and his companions were engaged in mortal combat with their enemies, the Pharisees when one of the priests slaves had his ear cut by the sword. Jesus then told them to put down their swords. This is mentioned in the Bible. The word "sword" appears over 200 times in the Bible - but even though the Arabic language has more than a dozen words for sword, there is not a single occurrence of any of these words anywhere in the Quran. Combat is ordered in the Quran, only under very specific and limited conditions and it is nothing more than what we would today call "The War on Terrorism." Fighting against all acts of organized aggression, oppression, persecution and terrorism is an obligation on all believers. But it certainly has limits and women, children, elderly and any innocents are not to killed or injured during such occasions. Treatment of prisoners is not to be humiliating or torture of any kind. Even the dead of the enemy are to be buried with dignity and respect. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now since writing my story and publishing here on the internet many other websites have picked up this story and it had become a famous example of how "Priest and Preachers Are Coming to Islam." Again, I thank you for visiting. And I thank our Christian friend for his email. If he hadn't sent it, I probably would still not have completed this task of putting down the story once and for all of how my family, friends and myself all came to Islam. Please feel free to share this story with others. You should print it out and make copies for everyone. Give them our links, add our story to your website or blog page, and send out emails to everyone you know. Maybe it could make a difference for others like us, God Willing. May Allah guide you on your journey to all truth. Ameen. And May He open your heart and your mind to the reality of this world and the purpose of this life, ameen. Peace to you and Guidance from Allah the One Almighty God, Creator and Sustainer of all that exists. Your friend, Yusuf Estes Chaplain Yusuf Estes

can we count the ones who are liberated here????

"Why Do Priests & Preachers Enter ISLAM?" WHY DO PEOPLE CONVERT TO ISLAM.A story by YUSUF ESTES.. Many people ask me how a preacher or priest in Christianity can ever go to Islam, especially considering all the negative things that we hear about Islam and Muslims everyday. Some people are simply curious, while others take a profound exception to my "conversion" to Islam. Some have asked how I could have turned my back on Jesus, or if I truly understood the Holy Ghost and some even questioned whether or not I considered myself as "born again" or had ever really been saved at all. These are good questions to which I will offer answers to at the end of this writing. I would like to thank everyone for their interest and offer my humble story, God Willing. One very nice Christian gentleman asked me in email why and how I left Christianity for Islam. This is more or less a copy of the letter I sent to him. Introduction My name is Yusuf Estes now, but in years past my friends used to call me Skip. I have preached Christianity and worked in the entertainment and music industry since I was a boy in the 1950's. My father and I have established music stores, TV and radio programs and outdoor entertainment for fun (and profit). I was a music minister and even used a pony ride and entertained the children as "Skippy the Clown." Once, I have served as Delegate to the United Nations Peace Conference for Religious Leaders. Now I am a retired former Muslim Chaplain for United States Bureau of Prisons, Washington, DC. and I join alongside many American Muslims, working with Muslim student and youth organizations as well as schools for Muslim children. As such, I travel around the entire world lecturing and sharing the message of the Christ of the Quran in Islam. We hold dialogs and discussion groups with all faiths and enjoy the opportunity to work alongside rabbis, ministers, preachers and priests everywhere. Some of our work is in the institutional area, military, universities and prisons. Primarily our goal is to educate and communicate the correct message of Islam and who the Muslims really are. Although Islam has grown now to nearly tie Christianity as the largest of religions on earth, we see many of those who claim Islam as Muslims, that do not correctly understand nor properly represent the message of "Peace, Surrender and Obedience to God" [Arabic = 'Islam'] Dear me, I am afraid that I got a bit ahead of myself. I was trying to give a bit of background of our work perhaps to see if it would in anyway benefit those who may being going through what I experienced while trying to resolve some of the issues of Christianity. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How It Happened: This may seem quite strange, while we perhaps may share a few different perspectives and concepts of God, Jesus, prophethood, sin and salvation. But you see, at one time I was in the same boat as many folks are today. Really, I was. Let me explain. Born A Strong Christian I was born into a very strong Christian family in the Midwest. Our family and their ancestors not only built the churches and schools across this land, but actually were the same ones who came here in the first place. While I was still in elementary we relocated in Houston, Texas in 1949 (I'm old). We attended church regularly and I was baptized at the age of 12 in Pasadena, Texas. As a teenager, I wanted to visit other churches to learn more of their teachings and beliefs. The Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Charismatic movements, Nazarene, Church of Christ, Church of God, Church of God in Christ, Full Gospel, Agape, Catholic, Presbyterian and many more. I developed quite a thirst for the "Gospel" or as we say; "Good News." My research into religion did not stop with Christianity. Not at all. Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Metaphysics, native American beliefs were all a part of my studies. Just about the only one that I did not look into seriously was "Islam". Why? Good question. Music Minister Anyway, I became very interested in different types of music, especially Gospel and Classical. Because my whole family was religious and musical it followed that I too would begin my studies in both areas. All this set me for the logical position of Music Minister in many of the churches that I became affiliated with over the years. I started teaching keyboard instruments in 1960 and by 1963 owned my own studios in Laurel, Maryland, called "Estes Music Studios." BUSINESS PROJECT IN TEXAS, OKLAHOMA AND FLORIDA Over the next 30 years my father and I worked together in many business projects. We had entertainment programs, shows and attractions. We opened piano and organ stores all the way from Texas and Oklahoma to Florida. We had earned millions of dollars during those years, but could not find the peace of mind that can only come through knowing the truth and finding the real plan of salvation. I'm sure you have asked yourself the question; "Why did God create me?" or "What is it that God wants me to do?" or "Exactly who is God, anyway?" "Why do we believe in 'original sin?" and "Why would the sons of Adam be forced to accept his 'sins' and then as a result be punished forever." But if you asked anyone these questions, they would probably tell you that you have to believe without asking, or that it is a 'mystery' and you shouldn't ask - "Just have faith, brother." TRINITY CONCEPT: Strangely enough, the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. And it has been a concern for religious scholars as early as 200 years after Jesus was raised up by Almighty God. I would ask preachers or ministers to give me some sort of an idea how 'one' could figure out to become 'three' or how God Himself, Who can do anything He Wills to do, cannot just forgive people's sins, but rather and had to become a man, come down on earth, be a human, and then take on the sins of all people; keeping in mind that all along He is still God of the whole universe and does as He Wills to do, both in and outside of the universe as we know it. They never seemed to be able to come up with anything other than opinions or strange analogies. MY FATHER - Ordained Non-Denominational Minister My father was very active in supporting church work, especially church school programs. He became and ordained minister in the 1970s. He and his wife (my stepmother) knew many of the TV evangelists and preachers and even visited Oral Roberts and helped in the building of the "Prayer Tower" in Tulsa, OK. They also were strong supporters of Jimmy Swaggart, Jim and Tammy Fae Bakker, Jerry Fallwell, John Haggi and the biggest enemy to Islam in America, Pat Robertson. DISTRIBUTING "Praise" TAPES FOR JESUS During the early 1980's my Dad and his wife worked together and were most active in recording "Praise" tapes and distributing them for free to people in retirement homes, hospitals and homes for the elderly. We were really "winning souls to the Lord - for Jesus" day after day. MET A MAN FROM EGYPT It was early in 1991 when my father began doing business with a man from Egypt and told me that he wanted me to meet him. This idea appealed to me when I thought about the idea of having an international flavor. You know, the pyramids, sphinx, Nile River and all that. HE WAS A MOSLEM Hijackers; Kidnappers; Bombers, Terrorists - and who knows what else? Then my father mentioned that this man was a 'Moslem.' First, I hated the idea of meeting an "infidel, hijacker, kidnapper, bomber, terrorist, non-believer." Any normal person would be repulsed at the idea. I couldn't believe my ears. A 'Moslem?' No way! I reminded my dad of the various different things that we had heard about these people. LIES AGAINST MUSLIMS AND ISLAM - They Told Us, Muslims: 1. They don't even believe in God 2. They worship a black box in the desert. 3. They kiss the ground five times a day. No Way! I Did Not Want to Meet Him! I did not want to meet this 'Moslem' man. No way! My father insisted that I meet him and reassured me that he was a very nice person. This was too much for me. Especially since the evangelists that we used to travel around with all hated Muslims and Islam very much.They even said things that were not true to make people afraid of Islam. So, why would I want anything to do with these people? AN IDEA - "Change Him To Christian" Then an idea came to me, "We can change this man to Christian." So, I gave in and agreed to the meeting. But on my terms. Met Him With A Bible, Cross and Cap with "Jesus Is Lord!" on it. I agreed to meet him on a Sunday after church so we would be all prayed up and in good standing with the Lord. I would be carrying my Bible under my arm as usual. I would have my big shiny cross dangling and I would have on my cap which says: "Jesus is Lord" right across the front. My wife and two young daughters came along and we were ready for our first encounter with the 'Moslems.' WHERE IS HE? When I came into the shop and asked my father where the 'Moslem' was, he pointed and said: "He's right over there." I was confused. That couldn't be the Moslem. No way. TURBAN AND BEARD I'm looking for a huge man with flowing robes, a big turban on his head, a beard half way down his shirt and eyebrows that go all the way across his forehead with a sword or a bomb under his coat. No Turban - No Beard - [No Hair at All!] This man had no beard. In fact, he didn't even have any hair on his head at all. He was nearly bald. Best of all, he was very pleasant with a warm welcome and handshake. This didn't make sense. I thought they are terrorists and bombers. What is this all about? WHY FOLLOW JESUS Never mind. I'll get right to work on this guy. He needs to be 'saved' in the 'Name of Jesus' and me and the Lord are going to do it. QUESTIONS AGAINST ISLAM: Introduction & Interrogation After a quick introduction, I asked him: "Do you believe in God?" He said: "Yes." - (Good!) Then I said: "Do you believe in Adam and Eve?" He said: "Yes." - (Very Good!) I said: "What about Abraham? You believe in him and how he tried to sacrifice his son for God?" He said: "Yes." - (Even better!) Then I asked: "What about Moses?" "Ten Commandments?" "Parting the Red Sea?" Again he said: "Yes." - (Better still!) Then: "What about the other prophets, David, Solomon and John the Baptist?" He said: "Yes." - (Great!) I asked: "Do you believe in the Bible?" Again, he said: "Yes." - (OK!) So, now it was time for the big question: "Do you believe in Jesus? That he was the Messiah (Christ) of God?" Again the said: "Yes." - (Fantastic!) Well now - "This was going to be easier than I had thought." He was just about ready to be baptized only he didn't know it. And I was just the one to do it, too. DO MUSLIMS BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE-? Shocking Knowledge -Muslims Believe in the Bible? One day in the Spring of 1991, I came to know that the Muslims believed in the Bible. I was shocked. How could this be? But that's not all, they believe in Jesus as: * A true messenger of God; * Prophet of God; * Miracle birth without human intervention; * He was the 'Christ' or Messiah as predicted in the Bible; * He is with God now and most important; * He will be coming back in the Last Days to lead the believers against the 'Antichrist.' After "winning souls to the Lord for Jesus" day after day, this would be a big achievement for me, to catch one of these 'Moslems' and 'convert' him to Christianity. HOW DO U CONVERT A MUSLIM TO CHRISTIANITY-Cup of Tea - Discuss Beliefs I asked him if he liked tea and he said he did. So off we went to a little shop in the mall to sit and talk about my favorite subject: Beliefs. While we sat in that little coffee shop for hours talking (I did most of the talking) I came to know that he was very nice, quiet and even a bit shy. He listened attentively to every word that I had to say and did not interrupt even one time. I liked this man's way and thought that he had definite potential to become a good Christian. - Little did I know the course of events about to unravel in front of my eyes. AGREED TO DO BUSINESS First of all, I agreed with my father that we should do business with this man and even encouraged the idea of him traveling along with me on my business trips across the northern part of Texas. Day after day we would ride together and discuss various issues pertaining to different beliefs that people have. And along the way, I could of course interject some of my favorite radio programs of worship and praise to help bring the message to this poor individual. We talked about the concept of God; the meaning of life; the purpose of creation; the prophets and their mission and how God reveals His Will to mankind. We also shared a lot of personal experiences and ideas as well. HE MOVED TO OUR HOME One day I came to know that my friend Mohamed was going to move out of the home he have been sharing with a friend of his and was going to be living in the mosque for a time. I went to my dad and asked him if we could invite Mohamed to come out to our big home in the country and stay there with us. After all, he could share some of the work and some expenses and he would be right there when we were ready to go to out traveling around. My father agreed and Mohamed moved in. BIBLE, TRINITY AND THE CROSS Of course I still would find time to visit my fellow preachers and evangelists around the state of Texas. One of them lived on the Texas --Mexico border and another lived near lived Oklahoma border. One preacher liked to a huge wooden cross that was bigger than a car. He would carry it over his shoulder and drag the bottom on the ground and go down the road or freeway hauling these two beams formed in the shape of a cross. People would stop their cars and come over to him and ask him what was going on and he would give them pamphlets and booklets on Christianity. WHY HATE AND FEAR ISLAM One day my friend with the cross had a heart attack and had to go to the Veterans Hospital where he stayed for quite a long while. I used to visit him in the hospital several times a week and I would take Mohamed with me with the hopes that we could all share together in the subject of beliefs and religions. My friend was not very impressed and it was obvious that he did not want to know anything about Islam. Then one day a man who was sharing the room with my friend came rolling into the room in his wheelchair. I went to him and asked him his name and he said that it didn't matter and when I asked him where he was from he said he was from the planet Jupiter. I thought about what he said and then began to wonder if I was in the cardiac ward or the mental ward. CHRISTIAN MIRACLES at work. I knew the man was lonely and depressed and needed someone in his life. So, I began to 'witness' to him about the Lord. I read to him out of the book of Jonah in the Old Testament. I shared the story of the prophet Jonah who had been sent by the Lord to call his people to the correct way. Jonah had left his people and escaped by boat to leave his city and head out to sea. A storm came up and the ship almost capsized and the people on board threw Jonah over the side of the ship. A whale came up to the surface and grabbed Jonah, swallowed him and then went down to the bottom of the sea, where he stayed for 3 days and 3 nights. Yet because of God's Mercy, He caused the whale to rise to the surface and then spit Jonah out to return back home safely to his city of Nineveh. And the idea was that we can't really run away from our problems because we always know what we have done. And what is more, God also always knows what we have done. CATHOLIC PRIESTS After sharing this story with the man in the wheel chair, he looked up and me and apologized. He told me he was sorry for his rude behavior and that he had experienced some real serious problems recently. Then he said that he wanted to confess something to me. And I said that I was not a Catholic priest and I don't handle confessions. He replied back to me that he knew that. In fact, he said: "I am a Catholic priest." I was shocked. Here I had been trying to preach Christianity to a priest. What in the world was happening here? CHRITIANITY AND PRIEST IN LATIN AMERICA The priest began to share his story of being a missionary for the church for over 12 years to south and Central America and Mexico and even in New York's 'Hell's Kitchen.' When he was released from the hospital he needed a place to go to recover and rather than let him go to stay with a Catholic family, I told my dad that we should invite him to come out and live with us in the country along with our families and Mohamed. It was agreed by all that he would so, he moved out right away. WHY MUSLIMS CONVERT AND Priests Must Study ISLAM? - YES! During the trip out to our home, I talked with the priest about some of the concepts of beliefs in Islam and to my surprise he agreed and then shared even more about this with me. I was shocked when he told me that Catholic priests actually study Islam and some even carry doctors degrees in this subject. This was all very enlightening to me. But there was still a lot more to come. HOW MANY VERSIONS OF THE BIBLE(Are they different) After settling in, we all began to gather around the kitchen table after dinner every night to discuss religion. My father would bring his King James Version of the Bible, I would bring out my Revised Standard Version of the Bible, my wife had another version of the Bible (maybe something like Jimmy Swaggart's 'Good News For Modern Man." The priest of course, had the Catholic Bible which has 7 more books in it that the Protestant Bible. So we spent more time talking about which Bible was the right one or the most correct one, than we did trying to convince Mohamed about becoming a Christian. QURAAN HAS ONLY ONE VERSION - In Arabic - And Still Exists At one point I recall asking him about the Quran and how many versions of it there were in the last 1,400 years. He told me that there was only ONE QURAN. And that it had never been changed. Yet he let me know that the Quran had been memorized by hundreds of thousands of people, in it's entirety and were scattered about the earth in many different countries. Over the centuries since the Quran was revealed millions have memorized it completely and have taught it to others who have memorized it completely, from cover to cover, letter perfect without mistakes. Today, over 9 million Muslims have memorized the entire Quran from cover to cover. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CHRISTIANITY AND ISLAM This did not seem possible to me. After all, the original languages of the Bible have all been dead languages for centuries and the documents themselves have been lost in their originals for hundreds and thousands of years. So, how could it be that something like this could be so easy to preserve and to recite from cover to cover. WHY YOU SHOULD CONVERT TO CHRITIANITY Anyway, one day the priest asked the Mohamed if he might accompany him to the mosque to see what it was like there. They came back talking about their experience there and we could not wait to ask the priest what it was like and what all types of ceremonies they performed. He said they didn't really 'do' anything. They just came and prayed and left. I said: "They left? Without any speeches or singing?" He said that was right. WHY CONVERT TO ISLAM( Priest going to the mosque) A few more days went by and the Catholic priest asked Mohamed if he might join him again for a trip to the mosque which they did. But this time it was different. They did not come back for a very long time. It became dark and we worried that something might have happened to them. Finally they arrived and when they came in the door I immediately recognized Mohamed, but who was this alongside of him? Someone wearing a white robe and a white cap. Hold on a minute! It was the priest. I said to him: "Pete? -- Did you become a 'Moslem?' He said that he had entered into Islam that very day. THE PRIEST BECAME A MUSLIM!! What next? (You'll see). FAMILIES JOINING ISLAM So, I went upstairs to think things over a bit and began to talk to my wife about the whole subject. She then told me that she too was going to enter into Islam, because she knew it was the truth. FAMILIES CONVERTING TO ISLAM I was really shocked now. I went downstairs and woke up Mohamed and asked him to come outside with me for a discussion. We walked and talked that whole night through. ISLAM AND THE TRUTH...Truth Had Come! By the time he was ready to pray Fajr (the morning prayer of the Muslims) I knew that the truth had come at last and now it was up to me to do my part. I went out back behind my father's house and found an old piece of plywood lying under an overhang and right there I put my head down on the ground facing the direction that the Muslims pray five times a day. GUIDANCE AND CONVERSION COMES FROM GOD Now then in that position, with my body stretched out on the plywood and my head on the ground, I asked: "O God. If you are there, guide me, guide me." ISLAM AND SIGNS And then after a while I raised up my head and I noticed something. No, I didn't see birds or angels coming out of the sky nor did I hear voices or music, nor did I see bright lights and flashes. What I did notice was a change inside of me. I was aware now more than ever before that it was time for me to stop any lying and doing anything sneaky. It was time that I really work at being an honest and upright man. I knew now what I had to do. WHY YOU SHOULD CHANGE YOUR BELIEF So I went upstairs and took a shower with the distinct idea that I was 'washing' away the sinful old person that I had become over the years. And I was now coming into a new, fresh life. A life based on truth and proof. NEW TO ISLAM Around 11:00 A.M. that morning, I stood before two witnesses, one the ex-priest, formerly known as Father Peter Jacob's, and the other Mohamed Abel Rehman and ..announced my 'shahadah' (open testimony to the Oneness of God and the prophethood of Muhammad, peace be upon him). "I bear witness, there is no deity to worship, except Almighty Allah, alone and He has no partners and I bear witness that Mohammad is His messenger and servant." MY WIFE WAS NEXT TO CONVERT TO ISLAM A few minutes later, my wife follow along and gave the same testimony. But hers was in front of 3 witnesses (me being the third). MY FATHER CONVERTING TO ISLAM My father was a bit more reserved on the subject and waited a few more months before he made his shahadah (public testimony). But he did finally commit to Islam and began offering prayers right along with me and the other Muslims in the local masjid (mosque). CHILDREN CONVERTING TO ISLAM The children were taken out of the Christian school and placed in Muslim schools. And now ten years later, they are memorizing much of the Quran and the teachings of Islam. MY FAMILY AND RELATIVES JOIN ISLAM My father's wife finally acknowledged, before she died, that Jesus could not be a son of God and that he must have been a mighty prophet of God, but not God. She passed away within a few months of this statement at age 86. May Allah accept her statement of faith, ameen. A MUSLIM FAMILY INSIDE USA Now stop and think. A whole entire household of people from varying backgrounds and ethnic groups coming together in truth to learn how to know and worship the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. Think. A Catholic priest; a minister of music and preacher of the Gospel; an ordained minister and builder of Christian schools; and the children, even a great-grandmother - they all come into Islam! GOD'S MERCY AND GUIDANCE- IZLAM Only by His Mercy were we all guided to see the real truth of Islam, by removing the coverings over our ears and the blinders on our eyes, no longer having seals over our hearts - He was Guiding us now. FREINDS ENTERING ISLAM Amazing Story - Family and Friends Entering Islam - From One Man If I were to stop right here, I'm sure that you would have to admit that at least, this is an amazing story, right? After all, three religious leaders of three separate denominations all going into one very opposite belief at the same time and then soon after the rest of the household. WHY ISLAM- Baptist Seminary Student Reads Quran - Accepts Islam But that is not all. There is more! The same year, while I was in Grand Prairie, Texas (near Dallas) I met a Baptist seminary student from Tennessee named Joe, who also came to Islam after reading the Holy Quran while in BAPTIST SEMINARY COLLEGE! More? Yes. Catholic Priest Loves Islam - But Needs His Job! There are others as well. I recall the case of the Catholic priest in a college town who talked about the good things in Islam so much that I was forced to ask him why he didn't enter Islam. He replied: "What? And loose my job?" - His name is Father John and we still pray for Allah to Guide Him. Another Catholic Priest Makes Shahadah The very next year I met a former Catholic priest who had been a missionary for 8 years in Africa. He learned about Islam while he was there and entered into Islam. He then changed his name to Omar and moved to Dallas Texas. Any more? Again - Yes! Orthodox Arch Bishop leaves church for Islam Two years later, while in San Antonio, Texas I was introduced to a former Arch Bishop of the Orthodox Church of Russia who learned about Islam and gave up his position to enter Islam. HINDUS CONVERTING TO ISLAM- Daughter of Hindu Pundit (Religious Leader) - Accepts Islam - Helping thousands to Islam I met a woman in New York who wanted to make our CDs about "What Is Islam?" After giving her permission several years ago, I have learned she has produced and distributed over 600 thousand of these to the non-Muslims in America. May Allah reward her and keep her strong in her efforts, ameen. Hundreds - Thousands - Still Coming to ISLAM And since my own entrance into Islam and becoming a chaplain to the Muslims throughout the country and around the world, I have encountered many more individuals who were leaders, teachers and scholars in other religions who learned about Islam and entered into it. They came from Hindus, Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Jehovah's Witnesses, Greek and Russian Orthodox, Coptic Christians from Egypt, non-denominational churches and even scientists who had been atheists. WHY JOIN ISLAM(Good Question?) The combination always seems to be the same; people are sincerely seeking the truth and are willing to put their different prejudices and biases out of their minds and begin to ask God for His Guidance in their lives. So, now you have the introduction to the story of my coming into Islam and becoming Muslim. There is more on the Internet about this story and there are more pictures there as well. Please take the time to visit it and then please take the time to email me and let us come together to share in all truths based on proofs for understanding our origins and our purpose and goals in this life and the Next Life. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yusuf Estes Chaplain Yusuf Estes More Proof? Read: "Success, Happiness & Peace" [click]

Originally posted by Yahoo_UK: I Cannot beleive the turn this duscussion has taken. If your are a Muslim then am sure u agree is only right u abide by the quraan and hadith .. so why even justify what was clearlly forbidden in the Qur'an ..in doing so you are one is celarly showing their level of Iman, The Prophet (pbuh) has said that if one has the need to have a sexual partner than one should marry .. marriage is also half of iman .. so delaying it is not an option. so in other words, you are saying Naden/Makalajabti and Bartender do not follow the teachings of Islam..? LET US SEE... BARTENDER DOESN'T ACCEPT WHAT ISLAM SAYS ON SEX: Purity seems archaic; abstinence impossible. Why wait when everyone else is getting the goods now? It’s just sex waiting till marriage seems outdated and prudish...... HE LOVE "THE SCIENCE OF SEX"..... there are more than a few healthy practical benefits of regular sex. For example, they say sex helps reduce menstrual pain in women,And in general, because sex reduces stress, it helps maintain a healthier immune system..... BARTENDER's LIFE IS JUST TOO SHORT(SO)..HE SAYS ENJOY.. besides life is too damn short why wait around till marriage, what happens if the so called mr right or miss right never comes along......live life waiting and die while waiting....what a shame way to live! SHE THINKS ALL FAARAAX'S ARE SAD...AND HOPELESS.. Someone said, Makalajabti, I won't be surpised if you get the RED card after your wedding night, She replied like, getting a red card from a sad hyporite faarax is a bliss. No wonder many FAARAX's are lonely..

Originally posted by JaWaRiYa: imagine you are in your menopausal period..............iam sure you can spare him. we are now slightly reasoning.. any other suggestions..

Originally posted by naden: ThePoint, Our back and forth is at risk of becoming masturbatory and a little tedious. Nonetheless, I appreciate your pointing out lapses of argument that happen in a heated discussion. Here are a few more. I think words are an important tool of communication and so I place a lot of value on specificity and clarity Great. Where do you see in my statement that ‘we clearly see this aspect of recovery and its impact on Somalis differently’ as an ‘easy dismissal’ of your point and how does this point to a conundrum in the stats and my views on the desperate state of Somalis? Am I dismissing your view when I describe it as different? For a person who so values clarity and specificity, you need to read better and respond more accurately. If you want to know what I think about the impact of Somalis returning and the economic impact of their investments, simply ask. Don’t deduce from a statement of disagreement and use it to discredit my argument that Somalia is in a miserable state based on the figures I used from the UNDP. As to any implications of the phrase 'culture and faith so untainted by kafirism' - there are a number……But those are ones you draw - and were not elucidated or drawn out by the poster. The tone of this peice can best be described as gushing because it focused solely on positive aspects. You see the post as focusing solely on positive aspects, I saw nothing positive. Is the implication I draw from the post illegitimate because it does not agree with yours? The sweeping and simplistic view of a ‘culture untainted by kafirism’, whatever that means, begs to be questioned and challenged. You are not challenging it or even responding to it because you see it as a perspective, a personal reflection that should not be held against the sister. That's fine. Again, words are important. But characterizations like hellhole are really intemperate, inaccurate and unilluminating. You used the word ‘hellhole’ in an earlier post and I gave what constitutes such as place in my world including a place where people flee in fear of life and limb, die in droves and are threatened with grave starvation. Was this intemperate? You took a part of my view (the fleeing), ignored the rest, and brought an asinine comparison with Mexico to challenge whether a fleeing Mexican and a fleeing Somali are in the same boat. The use of the word ‘hellhole’ to describe present day Somalia is your pet and a sticking point for you that you’re trying so hard to disprove. I believe my stats on infant mortality and hunger are illuminating in a discussion of hunger and poverty. Where are your concrete examples of ‘signs of recovery’ you falsely and liberally accused me of dismissing? I cannot dismiss something that was not substantiated. Now personal reflections I can shout at as I have done with the sister’s post, but I have not dismissed a missing argument. From the quote I used - you only stated the fleeing aspect as the primary determinant of indicting the society in which it occurred. Wrong. This is what I said in its entirety, you saw what you wanted to see to bring in the Mexico example: Hundreds of thousands ran away, hundreds of thousands more died, tens of thousands are dying now of hunger and disease, not to mention the hundreds who will venture out to the sea every few weeks and die there. That pretty much defines a hell-hole in my world. In all cases, you object to an indictment of a society you think I am doing, I believe I am commenting on a present state of affairs. Your first paragraph posits little to argue about. But the question becomes: much of sub-saharan Africa registers similar stats - are they then all hellholes - the lot of them? You are obviously troubled by the word hellhole. When I see these similar stats you allude to, in my world they are akin to living in a state of serious desperation. Subsaharan Africa has hideous AIDS rates, massive corruption and constant threats of widespread starvation. What I consider to be a hellhole I have explained several times, it’s clear that you don’t see it the same way. Her point was that faith helps to create a life that is 'stress free' and faith helps to alleviate their 'frown..and depression'. And, again, this was her PERSEPECTIVE and OBSERVATION. It is neither difficult to understand or to accept the sister’s perspective. As I may have stated earlier, it is not a rare view of life and I have run into many variations of these views. My responses are largely angry and directed at nearly everyone who espoused such views. I always wonder if people who think any life can be ‘stress free’ especially in the face of dire economic conditions are naturally naïve and incapable of seeing complexities or people unable to deal with the pain and suffering of others. In both cases, my blood boils at the simplicity of it all. Isn't one allowed leeway and freedom with one's own perspective and observations? I just find the attack on her persepective rather strange. But, again, this was her persepective and observation. She, apparently, did not see much suffering. Must she post on something she did not observe and was not part of her perspective? So you don’t think it was her person attacked in this thread, rather her perspective? Good. That she did not see any suffering while irksome is hers alone. In answer to your question, no one can tell another person to see the world a certain way. However, when she made large generalizations of Somalis in Somali and the West, some responded with suspicion. She can sing her perspective up and down and people can voice their suspicions and disagreements as well. The post does not say that hunger, stress, and depression do not exist. The post is confined to a particular perspective. The post speaks of a stress-free life. Being free of something means it does not occur there. True, she did say hunger existed and no one claimed that she said otherwise. It is the reflection of the mental state of hungry people that caused the disagreement. If you take it upon yourself to digress from the original post and launch into a discussion about the numerous ills affecting Somalia - then that is another thread altogether and is definitely off-topic That’s your opinion and you can raise your objections all you want. You do not set the parameters of a discussion and talking about social ills affecting Somalia when the issue of hungry Somalis comes up is not off-topic. A narrower discussion may be to your liking but the chance to discuss any relevant factors are open to people in the thread, and this includes Brother Khayr’s single-syllabic comments. What is so bizarre and intolerable about one positing her perspective? Or must the perspective posted conform to your pre-conceived notions? It is not bizarre or intolerable but object to suspicion and debate. The dismissing and degrading of individual perspective is trite and superficial in itself!........And the hostile and dismissive tone I found too much also………..the nasty tone and dismissive content were what bothered me. Okay. You find my tone, use of language and other tools bothersome. I can take that, I’m a big girl. I reserve shouting for what I perceive to be lazy and deceptive ideas and I reply as such. I do try not to be dismissive or degrading of any ideas, but to be challenging. If that means turning on the bullshit meter and calling it as such, so be it. The rigour of your argument decides the legitimacy of it - for the intelligent and unbiased person. Fair enough. My arguments maybe pessimistic but I backed them up with statistics and personal examples. The sister waxed poetic about her reflections and you posted counter arguments including an unfollowed-through comparison between countries and an unsubstantiated claim of signs of recovery leading to an improvement. You have not supported this claim yet you accused me of dismissing it easily. You’re obviously a man/woman who values a rigorous argument that is well supported with examples. Perhaps the intelligent and unbiased person in you can apply the same rigour to your arguments. I ask, who contributed to Somalia being the way it is, where ordinary somalis like you can't dream going to, it was lucky Mod is there safe, where it seems, ordinary somalis are scared to death.Maiming of ordinary citizens.Atleast the Sheikhs stopped crimes by 40% ...Men used to harass women, But the Sheikhs introduced strict respect for women.We, the somali youth in diaspora, must try to shun tribalism, nepotism, clan rivalvies and so on.You should explain to your family why you need to see Somalia with: -a free universal health care system -a top class education system -a state of the art and modern infrastructure -an economy that provides jobs, invents and innovates. -social mobility than writing so much for less. Some of us don't even have the time to write to impress(No pun intended) , we ONLY substitute by action..

MY STUFF(Officially) :cool: :cool: Officially you do whatever you want with your "orifices", as long as you don't hurt people with it I DON'T BELIEVE IN SHARIA(it is not my type) The Sharia one, that stuff is for the Middle East, I am not following it, anyway How can one follows the Sharia and lives in the West? a bit schyzophrenic huh?)..... Abaadir ( A GOOD ADVICE BUT WHAT DID THEY DO? ) Makaljabti iyo Ibtisan: ma waxaas baad maanta la soo shirtagteen. sidaas ku wada. Mar baad qaladkiina garandoontaan. Socod_badne's STEAM Pouty girls letting out some steam , nothing wrong with that. I have this weird feeling most of these females are ooch, ouch Girl. Looooooooool . is Socod_badne worried? what girls? Seriously please fill me in on this 'ouch ouch girl' business. Never heard of that before. I think we have deviated from the topic..The better we teach our children ISLAM and culture so that they can atleast speak their mother tongue, read quraan and spread the religion after you leave this world.When you teach your children about their religion, they will be able to differentiate between loosing their Virginity OR maintaining strict code for their sexual behaviours... .. anyway, nobody wants a wacel generation...

Originally posted by makalajabti: I rather getting married to a gaal/foreigner than to a polygamous faarax. We are in the 21st century and people are talking about polygamy, what a shame, no wonder why Somalia is still in feudal times. We know you can , you trend, is to hate hate Somalis and ISLAM so much??? Islam+ Somalis can stay without you makala..This was a general topic for discussion not personal..Who wants to know about you marrying a dirty white skinny lad? We are in the 21st century We live in the west In all all, Allah Said, Allah Almighty clearly discourages polygamy to men by telling them "but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one... (4:3)" which clearly orders men to either be fair or to not marry at all.

The best.. What are you so angry about? Conditions in a country that you have no control over? Do what you can, pray for them, and channel your energies to a more useful end. There is death, destruction and devastation but there is also hope, progress and renewal. I don't like those who harp on the Triple D at the expense of everything else. Because in varying amounts some form of Triple D exists in all parts of the world. Downtown Eastside ring any bells? Point blank, Don't ever talk about comparing Somalia and say UK.I have NEVER known anything about modesty but still I am sure she talked of good intentions when she said, I have been to both lands, Somalia and Western and found out If only Somalia could have... -the free universal health care system -top class education system -state of the art and modern infrastructure -economy that provides jobs, invents and innovates. -social mobility you will never talk about running away from your country or living to see your children becoming prostitutes and gangs..Acudhka..By the way Modesty, feel free to talk about your country and your HOST country.You have been there both.Who else did..or did u hear from the media Osama is in Mogadishu..? She really had a sense of Patriotism

The problem sadly is is that our people are delusional. I think That is why? you will find many E's and D+ in schools, still hoping to find a respectable Faarax to hook up.. However, There are some Xaliimos who do better with Faarax than school

Originally posted by ibtisam: ^^i bet someone in your family (close or extended) is a killer :rolleyes: please, Mr i'm perfect and my family is perfect :rolleyes: Ib, as I call myself, am a Kenyan somali and got no relatives there..so what do u know about betting anyways Mr.Perfect kulaha :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Originally posted by The Flipmode: quote:Originally posted by makalajabti: I'd rather wearing mini skirt and high heels than being covered up head to toe and living in Saudi Bloody Arabia. you can do the worst baby and God knows, we will see what happens.. you may think we will cry MAKALAJABTI, Did u talk about having liberated yourself earlier...

Originally posted by makalajabti: I'd rather wearing mini skirt and high heels than being covered up head to toe and living in Saudi Bloody Arabia. you can do the worst baby and God knows, we will see what happens.. you may think we will cry

Originally posted by makalajabti: I'd rather wearing mini skirt and high heels than being covered up head to toe and living in Saudi Bloody Arabia. Did you talk about having Liberated yourself... Do your wonders..we will see if we will cry

Originally posted by makalajabti: I'd rather wearing mini skirt and high heels than being covered up head to toe and living in Saudi Bloody Arabia. Did you talk about having Liberated yourself... Do your wonders..we will see if we will cry

Asalam aleykum, PREFACE Please avoid making the Hijaab issue like a Small time business.Read carefully from the internet and other resources, why you should wear the Hijaab. Read about Sultana Yusuf Ali, a 17 Year Old High School Student,Published in Toronto Star - Young People's Press in the following URL. Why Should I wear the Hijaab? Then, Originally posted by Modesty: Asalamu Alaykum, Dear brothers and sisters I want to say that we are so lucky to have this great religion called Islam. Allah said that the believing man, and the believing woman are superior than the non-believers. There was a time in history that non-believing women dressed like muslim women, unlike today.The hijab is fard, meaning it is obligatory upon the muslim women to wear it, and who doesn't is not practicing Islam fully. Men are supposed to dress modestly as well.Hijab is not just a piece of fabric, but who wears it must act upon it. That doesn't mean that you wear it just for impressing others, but for the fear and pleasure of Allah. Also, if a woman wear a hijab she must also wear loose fitting clothes that hide her adornments, and that she doesn't stand with man she isn't related to, laughing with them, for that is haram. My dear sisters, I know that this society we live in today sets standards for women for her to be accepted in society, and solely being based on her looks, and non-believers might shout names at you, and stare at you in disgust, but know that you are better than them because your heart is alive. But why can't non-believing women especially can't stand a veiled muslim sister? Ok, next time do this little experiment, when you are standing with a bunch of people and a beautiful woman walks by,everyone looks right. Well next time save yourself from this sin, but instead look at the people, you will see that even when the interest of the men faded from the debutante, the women are still looking. Why? because to the women she is a treat to them for men.BUT... when a veiled sister walks by you'll see nice girls shouting obcenities,because the veiled girl is a direct challenge to their whole womanhood. The veiled sister is doing everything the non-vieled woman is doing and getting a lot more respect from man. I heard a young girl say, the most feared in society is an articulate, successful sister with hijab, and there are a lot of sisters that haven't sold Allah's signs for a paltry price, and still are doing well in this dunya. So far one of the best replies to the thread. It may happen that brother Macwiis Weeyne, started the thread while angry, but that wouldn't make some of our sisters who either misunderstood the intention or were blatantly confused, outright angry Now look at the following samples of quotes which should have been avoided to make the topic a collective thread..This is a good topic though. Sister Nazra, “The hijab, doesn't mean :"u fear allah" ... it's there to be covered, and maintain a high profile for yourself and do what's it's said as well as beliveing allah and staying on the right path. did she mean it anyways..? :mad: :mad: She may have intended to say, wearing the hijaab doesn't mean, you fear Allah more.. like she almost said, The hijab is there for to be covered up not a status of your beliefs, it's betta to be covered up then not be covered yet display low level of amen. meaning please wear the Hijaab as orders from Allah, do not pretend that since you are wearing the Hijaab, you are the most God Fearing person ..Good And still Nazra said, Hijab is an order, if she wears tight tops underneath, so what? what's wrong with it? and she adds some style to it, wow! atleast she is still covered. Nazra, there is no atleast..It is either you are covered or Just plainly say, I don't need to be covered .It is your choice between obeying your God, the one who created you or disobeying HIM. Ahura then added ... Moreover, your racist remarks towards Erica Badu and other black women are very offensive. If Erica Badu chooses to dress differently from the Western image of how a woman should dress, then she should be applauded for her effort, rather than looked-down on by the likes of you. I ask, do u find Inspiration from Erica Badu or Lady Sahabas(Companions of the prophet) and other outstanding women of Islam Blessed answered her saying, Lets not disrespect each other.. after all our intention should only be to help each other achieve some good. Alhamdulillah, which we are doing.

Originally posted by Yahoo_UK: 'We live in the West' will not provide you with excises on judgment day .. in fact many a people have become more steadfast in their deen since arriving in the West .. so who lives in the west and does what..Sin? Don't you find it strange that Somalis who have been killing each other since the dark ages worry about whether you decide to have sex before marriage or not. I think there are bigger problems in life Think all Somalis are like you...?..Strange, There are some somalis By the grace of God who have never aspired to kill others..They, are the ones who got the time to ask

The Liberated Woman(Westernized/mzungunized): We see some common characteristics in modern secular society concerning what is required of men and women: Open chest shirts for the female, a necktie for the male. Belly exposed shirts for the female, tucked-in shirts for the male. Men's dress patronizes opaque clothing where as feminine clothes are transparent. Modern society labels a man as improperly dressed when not in full suit but women are celebrated if they keep their legs uncovered, even on a cold winter night. The society that condemns the exhibition of male physical curves and labels them as "perversion" provides artificial "aids" to under developed areas of the female. Everyone has heard the term, 'single mother' but you hardly ever hear about the 'single father'. The fashion world usually controlled by males, aims to create instability in the female mind. She is taught that "wearing the least" is something that builds "status" and taking it all off is "liberation". (Omar, Kamel 1989) She is taught to hate her own body. The form of her eyelashes and brows, the style of her walking and speech, the color of her lips, nails and cheek are all given an artificial look. She also hates the natural trend of her hair. In such a society, "hair fashion designers" and cosmetic manufacturers make big money. Whereas men balance themselves on a three-inch base heel of the shoes, the woman is expected to balance herself on a half a centimeter heel. This creates an abnormality called Lordosis in medical terminology. Males make big money, displaying female nakedness through their respectible trades like cabarets, strip bars, fashion shows, and especially commercial advertising (Do I want the Mustang or the sexy blonde in the advertisement?), nude paintings, magazines and now Internet web pages. Modern urban culture does not only show the above but it also shows: Alarming statistics with manifold percentage increase, compared to past decades, of single parents, children with no fathers, broken families, sex crimes, divorce, suicide and drug use among teens, asylums for unclaimed children, homes for unwanted parents, clinics for delinquent youth and neurotic adults. Recent estimates suggest that up to 80% of US society displays some form of psychological symptoms, and that up to 22% have psychological problems serious enough to interfere with their day to day living which are diagnosable (Chicago Tribune 12/1999). Data in the United States also shows that 25 to 35 percent of girls are sexually abused, usually by men well known to them (Kilbourne 1999:253). A high percentage of women so assaulted suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (the same disorder that a large number of Vietnam veterans suffer from) which leads to addiction and substance abuse and eventually to poverty and homelessness. Thus women in America live in a "war zone" in their own homes. If they survive childhood, their boyfriends or husbands eventually get them! In such societies "liberation" of women has been reduced to a slogan to sell products. Such sellers of "liberation", mostly men, offer women "liberation" via smoking, alcohol, food and their natural longing for stable relationships [which have dwindled in such a society]. This commercial "liberation" comes at a great cost to women and serves to isolate them through addiction. As addicts make great consumers, the sellers of such "liberation" want to keep it that way (Kilbourne 1999). When such sellers of "liberation" are faced with genuine demands for gender equality, like the ERA [Equal Rights Amendment in the United States], they reject them outright and a government funded and controlled by them makes it fail [ERA failed to pass in 1982]. Such powers that be in these societies not only attack any genuine efforts towards liberation of women in their own society [as they are commercially disadvantageous to them], but also attack all other ideas presented as truly liberating to women, by other societies [to which they export their commercial culture] by labeling them, "harsh, barbaric, primitive". They do this through their control of the media, which in most cases is not only owned by them but depends on them, through their advertising dollars, for its very survival . This paper is an attempt to reassess the History of Women's Rights, taking note of things that have been widely ignored in popular presentation of the subject. The paper also serves to clarify the position of a book, the Koran that has been distorted and misrepresented through the ages, by those having vested interests. Are there Liberated men anyways? [/QB