25th Hour is my favorite. It came out in 2002 and was set in New York a couple of months after 9/11 even though the story doesn't have much to do with that. When it came out the film generally received good reviews but it was pretty underrated. However, last year it was in a fair number of "Best of the decade" lists. It's snidely referred to as Spike Lee's "white" movie. This scene from it is awesome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Za2k5wA3sk ^Not a spoiler, but I recommend experiencing it first in the actual movie.

Its from the National Defense University in Washington, DC.

It's a WAR GAME people. They're just acting out a POSSIBLE scenario. No, it's not a joke or anything like that but just training in foreign policy issues. It even says it's from some university on the video.

Somaliland has invested too much in the idea of seperatism to simply settle for Federalism at this point.

Good thread. Here's the issue though: I think an appreciation for the rule of law -- for the necessity of a government-- must precede democratic secularism. Consider the fact that nearly all European countries were monarchies for the longest time where the common man was not free at all to have a voice in the creation of laws. But the rule of law was always forced upon the non-elite so that after hundreds of years they became culturally dependent on it. It was in no one's interest to have everything devolve into anarchy. And it isn't just European countries that this is true of. Consider Japan and China. Both countries had systems of government that enforced rigid laws for, in the case of Japan, at least 1.5 thousand years and in China's case considerably longer. These sort of governments are obviously far from today's ideal but at least they were governments, and they had a lasting and deep impact on the culture of the people. There is also the issue of literacy. A significant portion of the population of these people -- Europeans and Asians -- could read and write for hundreds of years. This also had an effect on their governments and laws. Somalis on the otherhand had practically never known of the concept of government (and literacy!) before the arrival of Europeans. Sure, we had our own indigious form of conflict resolution and so on, but our way of life didn't necessitate any form of central government. To go from this chaotic state to a secular democracy is, simply, too much of a jump. The cultural inertia from our pre-European contact years was simply too strong against the systems the Europeans gave us and, therefore, the military dictatorships and eventual disolution of the government was inevitable. You're talking about hundreds of years of clans and tribalism. This cultural inertia is still strong today because quite frankly there remain entirely rational reasons for your average Somali to cling to it: if he or she doesn't, he or she would lose any protection that clan/tribe offers. In the olden days your possessions and sheep and camels were protected by your fellow clan/sub-clan members against other clans. How could anyone in such a circumstance forsake his tribe/clan? How can anyone in Somalia today forsake his tribe/clan? It simply isn't rational to do so. And yet, the clan/tribe system doesn't really make sense in a world where people have united as NATIONS to further their interests. The nation is the ultimate tribe. Somalis need to come to understand first the benefits of nationhood, and a people cannot achieve secular democracy without having been prepared in the rule of law and literacy for hundreds of years.

By the way, don't think I'm against Somaliland going its own way. I don't think our people are capable of nationhood, and we might as well go our separate ways (and economically cooperate with each other.) I'm just against the unending childishness of many Somalilanders who post here, what with their endless "somaliland this, somaliland that" posts/threats. Are you REALLY going to make us hear about every little thing that Somaliland does which shows that the Somaliland government is at least barely functional? Grow up.

Also, you know that region of Puntland that Somaliland currently holds? If Somaliland is such a democratic place why not let the people of Sool and Santaag determine for themselves who to join?

Originally posted by GAAROODI: I run it that makes it mine. I see, law of the gun: just the very thing Somalis are struggling to break free from.

Originally posted by GAAROODI: you are forgetting the point, i dont oppose anyones right to succeed everyone has that right, but succeed in a manner that is guinine not based on lies and cheap talk. My success is visable on the ground you must acknowledge that, i dont talk up my successes they are there to be seen. But when you have muppets running wild on what they are even though they are nothing it is my pleasure to bring them back down to reality. It's pretty clear that you see any progress or success that Puntland makes as a threat. If Puntland is composed of a bunch of people full of hot air whose claims aren't backed up by reality...why not just ignore and pity them and focus on the region of the country you consider yours? In short, you're a hate monger, and while people in Puntland would probably just shrug their shoulders at any progress that Somaliland makes, it's clear that the idea of Puntland following the foot steps of Somaliland strikes you, for some reason, as a threat. Perhaps because then Somaliland won't be so special anymore in your eyes. Dude, progress and civilization depend upon suppressing the sort of raging hatred you're expressing right now. The success of Somaliland will be, in its own way, ultimately beneficial to the people in Puntland, and vice versa. Think of the big picture here.

Somaliland this, Somaliland that.

Please, no more selective photos of hotels/homes/new neighborhoods in Somalia. It's REALLY pathetic. Thanks!

Garoodi is what's wrong with Africa.

Garoodi brings to mind this Gore Vidal quote: "It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail." It isn't enough that Somaliland itches closer to becoming a functional region: other Somali regions must fail all the more, just so that the contrast with Somaliland is all the more stark. Suppose there was a button that, if pushed, would make Puntland into a prosperous, peaceful and successful region of Somalia, and that it was right in front of Garoodi. Would he push it? It certainly doesn't look like it. Instead of taking pity on other regions of Somalia still struggling, Garoodi welcomes such failure. It's like a poor man being given pleasure by the sight of people poorer than himself.

Garoodi brings to mind this Gore Vidal quote: "It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail." It isn't enough that Somaliland itches closer to becoming a functional region: other Somali regions must fail all the more, just so that the contrast with Somaliland is all the more stark. Suppose there was a button that, if pushed, would make Puntland into a prosperous, peaceful and successful region of Somalia, and that it was right in front of Garoodi. Would he push it? It certainly doesn't look like it. Instead of taking pity on other regions of Somalia still struggling, Garoodi welcomes such failure. It's like a poor man being given pleasure by the sight of people poorer than himself.

Haha, I thought this was funny: Sheikh Ahmed has a sizeable brood of his own—on his own word, no fewer than thirty-five children, “praise be to God,” and his current wife, his twelfth, is now pregnant. And then he says this: “I want you to hear what I have to say, and I want you to write this down. I am an old man and I have worked a long time, and I am sad my country is in this state. I wish I had a country that could reward its best citizens. If my country were not at war, I would have retired by now; I would have received my reward, because I have worked hard. I never harmed anyone. I raised my children properly, and they have never harmed anybody, either. So I wait for this weak state to give me my reward, so I can go home.” Anybody seeing the connection? This man monopolized twelve women. I take it that in Somalia, like anywhere else, the ratio of men to women is roughly 1:1. If the Sheikh dominated twelve women, that means eleven other men couldn't find wives. These men pretty much have nothing except amble time to sow discord and chaos. The poor man can't see how his own selfishness contributes to the ruin of his country.

Originally posted by MAXIMUS POWERS: Somalis are actually a lot sharper than most other people. Take the Ethiopians who literally have no personality. Most people tell me they love Somali people. we are known for our hospitality and kindness and good manners. Somalis are individually intelligent but collectively, some Somalis are languishing at the lower rungs of the human developmental capacity charts. -including many SOLers as well as the poster of the topic who is no doubt dumber than the mark but asking such a silly and self-hating question. Why shouldn't I hate myself? I think our people are amongst the dumbest in the world: look at how we're frequently listed as the worst place on Earth. Dumb people get into dumb situations, and the perpetually hellish situation in Somalia is merely a reflection of the capacities of its people. Don't you dare imply that the same dysfunctions don't hold in Somaliland. Being relatively peaceful compared to the rest of Somalia does not mean Somalilanders don't have within themselves the same sickness and flaws that are responsible for the current Somali situation.

It's hard to argue against Somaliland's desire to break away. After all, what does the rest of Somalia offer to them? The only annoying thing about Somalilanders is when they speak of Somalia as if their own dysfunctions and problems never contributed to the overall problems in the first place. Let the Eeesaaq have the parts of northern Somalia where they demographically dominate, let the ***** Puntland, and you know who Southern Somalia. The only problem with this is that Southern Somalia is the richest in terms of resources/arable land. But oh well. This way each clan can have its own country and we can stay away from each other we despise each other so much.

Originally posted by Jalle Liqaye: As for your statistics saxiib even if taken for face value would still show that the Somaliland parliament is representative of a greater cross section of the somali clan system than puntlands, which is the division of spoils among first cousins no less, when in Somaliland 3 clan groups are represented with approximately the same number of seats as their population size warrants. [/QB] Tyranny by the majority...

It's A&T's favorite Somali region!

You can take them out of Africa, but you can't take Africa out of them...

Thank you for further demonstrating the dumbness of Somalis, Jacaylbaro.

From "that" area?

In the West, something like 70% of the population seems to understand the intrinsic importance of the rule of law. They're not just following laws because they're afraid of the consequences of breaking them, but rather, they follow laws because they realize the consequences of a lawless society. Our Somali leaders never could see the ultimate consequences of their warlike behavior. They can't see beyond their noses and don't really seem to be any smarter or more knowledgeable than your average Somali. Your Somali government leader is like your average Somali in education and ability. Consider Said Barre. Say what you will about his reign, h failed to see the consequences of failing to appease those other clans. The stability of his reign was like the stability during the eye of a storm. If Said Barre had been smarter he would have been able to diffuse all those tensions that were simmering under the service. But because of his lack of intelligence, he added to those tensions. Leaders have to be smarter than the populace they lead. Consider the current president, Sheikh whathisface. What are his qualifications to lead a country other than "he knows Islam really, really well"? What's his understanding of economics, strategy, politics, etc? None. He's just as blind as your average Somali. If our leaders had been smarter, Somalia wouldn't be frequently listed as the worst country in the world. But unfortunately smart leaders pop up from smart populaces, and Somalia consistently producing idiotic leaders just means that the Somali populace is idiotic.

Originally posted by Naxar Nugaaleed: don't you simpletons understand that those rankings include Somaliland? L.O.L

There's one thing I forgot: some of the kids sent abroad should, instead of the fields I suggested previously, enroll in those technical type schools and acquire skills as machinists, electricians, carpenters, and so on. They'll train other people in these skills. Working with the returned trained engineers, and with some capital, Somaliland will then be in a position to build its infrastructure. Improved infrastructure results in improved business. Anyway, this would be an investment that the Somaliland government would be making: if it improves its populations human capital, then the Somaliland government will net more tax revenue.