Ngonge, I can honestly say I had no clue you came from NW Somalia. For some reason I thought you came from another area, I’m not sure what it was, but once I read the anger you wrote with and the name calling. I came to the realization that you must be. Maybe it's the failure of your secessionist’s dreams that make you so hostile or the fact that you can't admit when you are wrong. But If I knew you were a right-winger from NW Somalia, I would have approached this differently; you seem stuck in your ways! This argument since the beginning has to with the Hypocrisy, specifically what got my attention was the people that posted the Articles: "JB - Monster living next door" and "Qudhac - Gulwadayaal claim samtar is now a victim." The two people who made that thread is what originally got me annoyed and interested, because these guys can comment only on Samatar and talk about his history but not their leaders. Later what really got me annoyed was witnesses in the law suit. Because they and the SOLers will never say a word about Riyaale who comes from their enclave! That's what the arguments was and always been about, now I still believe that the lawsuit is coming from ONE source and I am saying that this source, (whether it be the witnesses or the right wing faction on SOL are biased.) Thankful, you are being obtuse again, saaxib. The link I gave does mention their clan but it also mentions they are two individuals, you stubborn pirate. The SL community in that city did not get together and file a case against the man there; TWO people did. The mention of their clan is important because it sheds some light into the background of the case but this is not a portrayal of the clan as a whole. Not every person from SL is after blood. Some have moved on and some, due to very personal experiences and the opportunity to address these experiences, have not. This is straight and simple but you are being thick on purpose here. The article said they are suing on behalf of 2 members of the (I-clan), they alleged victims are concealing their names. The case is Doe v. Ali. The reason they need to immediately mention their tribe is because it plays big role in their suit. The reason why it says that the Siad government "I-clan was a special target of the military government." Is to make it clear in their eyes that their whole "group" was being targeted not just themselves. The lawsuit then mentions their tribe; read the background info on the article you sent me, before the victims are mentioned, the lawyers identified the individuals by their tribe and in the background summary they give a brief history of what theri tribe was facing, before then talk about the victims. So even though you tried to say in American tribe means nothing, their lawyers know that mentioning the Siad government directly focused on them as a group helps their case. The lawsuit specifically makes it known that their tribe was a special target of the Siad’s military government and not just these private individuals. You (and others) cry Riyaale went to America and nobody prosecuted him. That too is nonsense. Because, and now I'll have to hold your dirty pirate hand here and walk you back to the start of this post; the case was brought by private individuals and these individuals have a direct problem The worse thing in all of this is not really the trial, Samatar or the perceptions you have. What is really appalling here is the idea that just because Somalia had many criminals no victims should have the gal to go after those they believe have wronged them, for the simple reason that others did not! But that is not the way the world works. That is not even the way Somalis work; when someone is killed, some ask for the perpetrator to be killed too whilst others are happy with the blood money. Some believe revenge serves no purpose whilst others demand retribution. It is a very personal and individual thing and not a clan objective. At any rate, SL (as a collective) has already chosen its method of revenge, it decided to secede and never expose itself to the possibility of a return to such times or heartache. Lakin ma cid ba fahmaysa? But you are wrong when you say that these individuals have a direct problem with those men. They are saying that the men under their command subjected them to torture. They are not saying Samatar actually did it! But that military and NSS did. Which is why I say, if anything....the possibility of Riyaale being more directly responsible for their abuse is high? But just like SOL and these witnesses they remain silent. I question their sense of justice and why they aren’t blind when it comes to searching for it. It is one dominant group in NW Somalia’s government that is blaming all other Somalis. The whole reason NW Somalia wants to break up is the claim they make about the abuse they suffered, the reason the witnesses in the case want money is also the abuse they suffered. Yet they never say a word about the NSS station chief! The reason I mentioned Nuremberg Trials is important because it made it clear that you can't use the excuse you were just following orders (like some did for Riyaale), I included Iraq because there new government refused to allow ALL ex-baathists in. Which is the right way to do it, but in NW Somalia an NSS agent was made president! So you are right the lawsuit is from private individuals and just like the posters of this thread it is all coming from "one" side. So my only issue I can prove is towards those two hypocrites’. Especially the witnesses who claim NSS agents came to his house and tortured him. And when an NSS station chief from NW Somalia visits Virginia, they all remain silent. The issue has always been about JB, Qudhuc and now the witnesses in the case. They can talk about war crimes attributed to ex-Siad guys who don't hold heavy weight in their NW Somalia Gov't, but won't say a word about the ex-Siad guys that lead their country and who were once a part of a brutal security apparatus that abused them.

Originally posted by NGONGE: Lets assume that Samatar was from a PL clan or even an SL clan or those mad ones that are burning Xamar. I suggest you edit that! There's no need to be rude and insult anyone! You should keep your opinions to yourself. Duke, I tried, but now that I realize Ngonge is from NW Somalia and thinks like there right wingers, it's a lost cause.

Again, clan is everything but in the West each of us is free to do and choose a path to take. You keep going about an enclave as if the qaraan joke of Xiin is real here. There is no hypocracy here you are choosing to make this a qabiil thing rather than some people who for very personal reasons are suing some man. This is from the article you presented: Source CJA filed suit against Colonel Yusuf Abdi Ali (a.k.a Tokeh) a former officer in the Somali National Army during the military dictatorship of Siad Barré, on behalf of two members of the Is**q clan who were brutally tortured by soldiers under Tokeh's command. The Is**q clan, located primarily in the northwestern region of Somalia, was a special target of the military government. I am not choosing anything, the article you presented mentions the alleged victims clan, it is a primary focus on the abuse and specifically imply that they were being persecuted because of it! So don't provide a source that mentions clan and then make it seem like I am the only one making into the clan, the lawsuits clearly mentions it! Ngonge - There is no hypocracy here you are choosing to make this a qabiil thing rather than some people who for very personal reasons are suing some man. I didn't realize you were from NW Somalia and of course you will never admit there is hypocracy! Just like JB, Qudhuc and now you!

Now concering their motives I can't say for certain, I still believe Samatar is an easy target because of his lack of support. I still believe the NW Somali government is not participating in this because they dont want to be investigated! Now that I see the victim wants money, that could be a motivation. Maybe to sue the Somali gov't and try to get the money. I am not sure. One thing that is certain is the hypocracy. Because the victims suing Samatar in Virginia alleged NSS officers came to there homes and tortured them. Yet when a NSS Chief who worked in the area's abuse took place visits Virginia, these same witnesses dont protest. Why's that? If I had a lawsuit against a man who I allege used his security apparatus to brutalize my people and I found out someone who was part of that security apparatus was visiting my city, I would voice my opposition!

Ohhh, are you a NW Somali Ngonge? That explains why you are being like this! I never knew that, I guess because you avatar isn't somethign to do with your enclave! But that know I get it! Look, it's just the hypocracy in all this and that's all! That it seems no one from your enclave will be held accountable and can become president, while others from your enclave seek justice agains those outside! Hopefully you'll admit one day that there is a double standard.

I am not in America nor do I know any witnesses. Yes, it is people from one CLAN doing this That's my point, that when those exact same witnesses from that one enclave who alleged NSS officers carried out the abuse are visited by an NSS station chief, they remain silent and don't protest his visit! If I have a problem with Thankful I do not go on suing Duke. How hard is this for you to understand? Riyaale was the station chief in the area that teh crimes occurred, he is a prime suspect! They should have a problem with him! Like i've said this all had to do with the hypocracy in Samatar's case!

Originally posted by NGONGE: Originally posted by xiinfaniin: [qb] As I showed Thankful, there was another man being sued (and I do not even know his qolo but I'm sure you do). So the argument that only one man is being singled out is..err out. Lol, like I said in another thread, both lawsuits are from the same enclave and the and the people suing are from the same "qolo"! One lawsuit has stalled! It seems that some ex-Siad Barre who do not hail from their Qolo are being held accountable, others people that do hail from their Qolo have airports named after them!

How is this a red herring? Since the first post this had to do with the double standards! That only one "group" is seeking justice(in Samatar case and the one you provided Ali), but that this same group turns a blind eye to their alleged criminals! Who hold public office and vists the west numerous times. That was the main point since the beginning! Samatar is the only man being sued that is going to the Supreme Court, from the article you provided it clearly says. Both Law suits are coming from one specfic group in the U.S. When Abdullahi Yusuf went to London he was protested! When Augusto Pinochet of chile went he was also protested!! It doesn't matter where the person lives, if they visit a nation they are subject to those nations laws, when Qeybdiid came to Sweden he was arrested immediately! The same article you provided, the victim says: On November 19, 1981, three National Security Service (NSS) agents abducted him from his office and took him to a facility dedicated for the detention and interrogation of members of UFFO. Yousuf was searched, sequestered, and left for two days without food or water. A few days later, in early December 1981, two military policemen and an NSS officer came to his cell and blindfolded, handcuffed, and forced him into the back of a truck. All I am showing you is the hypocracy in all this! That's it, I am not saying he should be let go. I am just saying that these wintesses remain silent when an NSS Station Chief in NW Somalia visited their state of Virginia! He is the president were their tribe is dominant(you're article mentioned tribe). Samatar who is from a minority group, is being sued by group that has WAY more supporters, who turn a blind eye to their alleged war criminals and make them public office. I just want to show you the hypocracy!

AT, the accuser is in civil court and is seeking financial damages. There are thousands that sue for that!

Originally posted by Castro: This man who sued Samatar has the courage that many of us lack. Yeah, like I said in another thread he claims in the lawsuit NSS agents abducted him, yet when Riyaale came and visited his home state of Virginia he didn't protest a word. That is not courage that is a coward.

NGONGE, You know back when someone came out and said the world was round he was look at as crazy. People just didn’t want to hear any logic. That is what going on with people like you and Castro, if someone disagrees with you, you complain that the person is being thick. Regardless, like I've said to Castro just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean they are being think or wrong. Anyways, whatever. This is from the source you provided: On November 10, 2004, CJA filed suit against Colonel Yusuf Abdi Ali (a.k.a Tokeh) a former officer in the Somali National Army during the military dictatorship of Siad Barré, on behalf of two members of the Is**q clan who were brutally tortured by soldiers under Tokeh's command. The case was referred by the District Court judge to the U.S. State Department for its input on immunities issues where it remains stalled. I think we all are aware of Colonel Yusuf Abdi Ali, I read about him quite a bit, the case is stalled and it is brough on by a specific group of NW Somalia( Which has been the case with Samatar as well.) In Samatar's case it is a civil lawsuit going beofore the Supreme Court, which the alleged victims are looking for money!! Now, I’m not sure if they expect to get it from him or if they will sue the Somali government. But they aren't asking for his arrest, they are asking for money. I don't know how to actually make you comprehend the argument here. But i'll try again! General Samatar's case as well as Colonel Ali's were both brought on by NW Somalis (and as your article show a specific tribe!) The alleged victims are not suing the men for necessarily carrying out all of the actual abuses but it was the actual people under their command (i.e. intelligence officers and other government officials.) The whole problem and argument here has to do with the fact that when Dahir Riyaale worked in Siad Barre's brutal NSS. He work in the area's that ALL these victims claim the abuse took place. He also visited Virginia and Washington a few years back, where many of the victims lived. Yet did these victims protest? Did they write letters of complaint? This man was actually named President of their nation and holds important interest to them. Read this Cornell Edu Plaintiff Bashe Abdi Yousuf, a member of the disfavored Is**q clan, claims that NSS agents abducted him and tortured him by using electric shock and the “Mig,” a torture method through which Yousuf’s hands and feet were bound together in the air behind him and a heavy rock was placed on his back. See Samantar, 552 F.3d at 374. In his lawsuit the main victim Yousuf, claims that NSS agents are the one's that abducted him, so surely he would be upset when Dahir Riyaale visited his town of Virginia. But no, he didn't nor did any of the other victims. Which is UNBELIEVABLE? After the The Universal Declaration of Human Rights of 1948, you can no longer use the excuse that you were following orders. That if you carry out an order that goes against basic human rights, you will be held accountable, and doesn’t matter if you were an 18 year old soldier. Think about it, an ex-NSS officer in Siad's regime was named president of the same people that accuse the NSS of abuse The government of NW Somalia is full of ex-Siad Guys, yet these victims have never been complained about or refused entry into government, they have all been forgiven. The Victims in U.S don’t have an issue when an NSS Station chief (the same NSS agents that they alleged abducted them and where the brutal crimes took place) comes and visits there city. The arguments has to do with the hypocrites (both witnesses and on SOL) that accuse Gen Samatar and if you want to add Ali, they want to see others punished and not their own. These Witnesses and others that are happy this case is going through aren't looking for justice for all; they are just looking for justice against certain people.

Castro, I don't think you understand what people are saying here or atleast what I am saying. All of this is regarding the fact that the same people like JB, Qudhac and others are happy that Mr. Samatar is being sued in civilian court. Because they and many others allege he was responsible for countless war crimes. However, when you turn the tables on them and say - well look your current president of NW Somalia worked for the National Security Services (NSS) in intelligence as the station chief in the same area that many war crimes took place, they respond that no one has accused him so he is innocent. When you also say to them that the victims of Mr. Samatar do not alleged in the law suit that he was the one carrying out the crimes, it was intelligence people and the military, and I remind JB and Qudhac that their president was an intelligence officer, they ignore it and still defend him. Basically they will never admit they elected a man that worked for the same regime and the same field that they claim abused them. The frustration on this thread has nothing to do with Samatar's case, it has to do with the fact that other Siad Regime guys from Egal who was named Prime Minister to Riyaale have been forgiven because they come from NW somalia. But anyone from outside they are happy to see punished. All this has to do with is the fact that the same people who are happy Mr. Samatar is being sued, remain silent when it concerns the former regime members that came from their area. That's all!

Originally posted by Qudhac: quote:Originally posted by Thankful: Castro, It doesn't work that way, you need evidence and other hard facts. Alhamdulilah I did not witness the war crimes in NW Somalia, so I am unable to bring forward a case. However, there are many witnesses who have completely remained silent, and have never reported anyone else. I guess this is a joke to you, which is fine. I dont want any one prosecuted until there is a thorough investigation. No no no the Evidence is for the courts to look at and decide his guilt or not, people dont have to first show their evidence before someone can be brought to court, however they would need those proof to convict thats how lawsuit works. the fact that some people chose to renmain silent is irellevant to bringing a case against someone, and its not excuse to say oh but others havent been charged. Yes you do need to show evidence first, the courts want to ensure that there is enough reason to go ahead with the costly and time consuming court hearing. They are extremely busy and can't afford to hear every case. They want to look at the evidence and then decide if it is enough to go forward with. If it is enough, they will bring it to court and allow the accused to defend themselves against the acquisations. AFTER both sides argue, then they courts will decided! You need a strong case with evidence to even get to court, they wont just accept everyone. Castro, No one is being thick here, it's called a difference of opinion. Just because someone does not agree with you. Doesn't mean they are being thick. As much as you might want to believe, your way is not always the right way. This is getting ridiculous now, all I want is for a thorough investigation off all our alleged war criminals regardless of where they come from.

Zack that is my only point! After 2 decades no complaints have come forward. Even though it has been over a decade that Mr. Samatar was first accused no one else has started up new cases any where else in the world. I'll end it with this - the reason why the area's in Somalia that have experienced the most destruction have not come forward is plain and simple. They know once the investigations start up, many people who now hold public office will be prime suspects.

Castro, It doesn't work that way, you need evidence and other hard facts. Alhamdulilah I did not witness the war crimes in NW Somalia, so I am unable to bring forward a case. However, there are many witnesses who have completely remained silent, and have never reported anyone else. I guess this is a joke to you, which is fine. I dont want any one prosecuted until there is a thorough investigation.

I dont think AMISOM is guilty because they are fighting a group that dresses like civilians and launch attacks form populated area's. How many AMISOM soldiers are there, a few thousand? Even if there 10,000 they could not stand a chance without the support of a significant amoung to Somalis. They are definitely welcomed by many. My other point is that Gen. Samatar never admitted to the crimes that his accuser say he did. What he did say is that armed rebels used the civilian populated city as shield and that the government wanted to stop them. I think he and the rebels should be investigated and many many others! All over the world this is taking place except Somalia.

Wow, I have never see someone take things out of context like this. Lol, okay! Armed rebels leave the mountains and enter the city and make a base, after being warned not to. Try that in any country in the world and you'll see the same response. I am not condoning the response, but you can't leave out the detail about armed rebels lauching attacks from the city. Both groups took advantage of the innocent victims!

There is no "these men"; It is one man!!! Qudhac, this is case being brough by normal people agains the citizen who were wrong by these men. if a person has case against samater who gave the orders for example to kidnap imprison and execute a citizen then that does not mean every person needs to stand trail only the accused. No, that is not how international law works!! The people who carried out the alleged orders are just as guilty as the ones that ordered it. That's why those soldiers in Abu Gharib were punished. And you are still hearing of nazi prison guards in their 90s who are in wheel chairs still being arrested. And these same citizen who brough forward the case, remain silent against the station chief of a bulding that saw physical abuse take place. I've said it already, Samatar should be investigated, but while Samatar's case goes along, why hasn't any of the many other war criminals ever been sued as well? Not a single one has! In Liberia they had a truth and reconciliation tribunal that has put forward many names of those that should be investigated for war crimes. They even named the current president Ellen Johnson Sirleaf as someone that should be investigated to. In their Final Report, issued June 2009, the TRC included Sirleaf in a list of 50 names of people that should be "specifically barred from holding public offices; elected or appointed for a period of thirty (30) years" for "being associated with former warring factions. That's how it is done, any one associated should be investigated. You know what, you and many others will never admit that there any war criminal who are a part of the party you support. Since no one has come forward they are all innocent in your eyes!

Qudhac, during the Nuremberg trials Nazi soldiers tried to use that defense, that they were only following orders.It didn't work and they were found quilty. The ones given the orders and the ones following were just as guilty. You obviously want to defend and dimish Riyaale's role! Castro, No one sued Riyaale for war crimes And that's my question, why hasn't anyone from NW Somalia sued him, he worked for the NSS, he was their during the time the worst abuses took place? It's simple, because he is one of their guys. Just like Egal was to! We both know if Samatar was from there two, he would have been forgiven. There is obviously a differnce in opinion here, Qudhac and Castro! I am all for Mr. Samatar being investigated, (even though this is a civil case and the accusers are looking for financial reward). I'll leave it at this, I just don't get how some of you are looking for justice against him and others that aren't from your respected area's but remain silent when it comes to the alleged criminals from your "side." That's my only issue here.

Originally posted by NGONGE: No shred of evidence? How about the man admitting it himself? Really ok produce it! The plaintiffs do not claim that Samatar personally committed the atrocities or that he was directly involved. But they said the Somali intelligence agencies and the military police under his command engaged in the killings, rapes and torture, including the use of electric shocks, of civilians. He admitted something that the witnesses aren't even alleging? Halyeey 11, With me, I just can't comprehend why out of all the warlords and other people accused of human rights abuses. Who are strongly hated, are walking free. Makes no sense.

Originally posted by Castro: ^^^^^ Your "president" (lol) is the biggest guulwade and you look down on the others. quote: Originally posted by ThankfulSP: The million dollar questions has always been, Why are your alleged war criminals being given a green light and being name to public office?? Atheer you still don't get it. Riyaale doesn't live in Virginia or Maryland. When he retires there, you can sue him. What are you talking about? Riyaale visited Virginia and Washington, a former Siad NSS intelligence officer. Yet was there any protests? Did anyone write letters? Second are you trying to say that the U.S is the only place that prosecutes war criminals, so until someone retires their they are immune? There are alleged criminals in London (After WW2, Europe has some of the most comprehensive human rights laws), yet not a single person has come forward to complain about those monsters living next door, what about Morgan...after 2 decades of hearing how muderous he was, why hasn't anyone brought forward a case, he visits Kenya regularly? I understand Samatar is a civil case, and by all means investigate him. But investigate them ALL, anyone that is suspected, heck just investigate a handful then. But not just one guy. I don't know why you keep mentioning the U.S, as if they are the only ones that can prosecute. I said it once i'll say it again, the reason why Morgan, Riyaale and all other former Regime members and other alleged war criminals have NEVER ONCE been brought up on charges is because they have thousands of people on their side that will rush to their defense and counter the allegations...where as Samatar does not!

Originally posted by Qudhac: thank mr riyale has not been accused by any one in somaliland of commited crimes so therferoe he is innocent man. indeed its good things you admit that the likes of samater indeed ordered the destruction of cities and the mass killings of civilians hence why he is waiting court. From my understanding, there is not a shred of evidence that Samatar order anyone to do anything. I think every Somali is fully aware that Siad Barre was in complete control of that government and made the final decision. He appointed Samatar and brought back the position of Prime Minister. Riyaale worked in NW Somalia for the NSS, that is not disputed. It is a fact that the NSS committed war crimes during the period Riyaale was employed there. Surely that warrants an investigation. He was an intelligence officer in the area's that war crimes took place. That is undisputed! Yet not a single investigation on him. Do you think the fact that he comes from a group that is vital to NW Somalis government plays a role. See this is exactly what I am talking about. Dahir Riyaale worked for a murderous regime, in the area and during the period that the crimes were taking place, yet you call him an innocent man! Without an investigation. He has supporters like you, that are willing to protect him and clear his name, because he serves your interests. Just like so many other alleged Somali War criminals, this support is something that Mr. Samatar does not have. This is the disgusting bias we need to change in our society! Punish other people, but not our people.

How much time do you think we have here? NO you don't finish one to start another, they are all old men in their 60's and older. At this current rate of 20 years if you wait any longer no one else will face justice. In Rwanda, or Former Yugoslavia they didn't wait to finish one and then the others. That's not how it works! Former Siad men in Europe and Riyaale get a free pass while one man from an oppressed group is attacked. What is the point of waiting? How does Samatar in the U.S have anything to do with the British or Kenyan courts? Absolutely nothing! The warlords that blocked food aid to people or the rebels that hid among civilians and former regime guys who directly carried out the human rights violations with their own hands haven't even been reported the international human rights court? It's quite obvious why!

Gen Samatar case started the beginning of last decade, why hasn't any new ones started?

Not complaining, but wondering why no one else has ever been brought forward! The same people, (like you), who are happying that he is being prosecuted, remain silent with their own monsters.