Originally posted by Baashi: DA always wins not because she has a point, not because she has knowledge in the subject under discussion, not because she uses reason, not because she has higher moral ground than other opposing (views) nomads...no she wins because she stubbornly exerts one-dimensional line arguments that goes around the heart of the issue in circles. Obviously you have nothing but contempt for my views. That is the norm here anyway. My one liners have points. You can go back 8 pages and see that I have further repeated myself, and I no longer wish to. So of course, DA DOES NOT HAVE A POINT, IS NOT INTELLIGENT, DID NOT HAVE OVER 20 YEARS OF TRAINING AND EDUCATION AND LACKS COMMON SENSE AND LOGIC. Am I missing anything else? Oh but wait, I am also one-dimentional. This post is case in point! The issue of whether women get more ajar in praying their homes or not could have been settled if the words of the prophet is good enough for DA. From what I gather, she demands a Qur’anic verse that specifically addresses this issue from this particular angle. What prophet Mohamed PBUH preachs is immaterial as far as DA is concerned. The bottom line is there is no (as far as I know) verse in Qur’an about this issue. In that regard she’s won. Clap clap! There is, however, a verse in the Qur’an that says whatever prophet brings to you take (embrace) it and whatever he forbids avoid (it is haraam) it. This verse has to end, you would think, DA’s concern of Hadiths being not the primary sources right? wrong! [/i] The point is, the Koran is the primary source of our religion. What Allah prohibits, is haram, what ever he allows is halal. The Prophet is in accordance with the Koran. Yes, Sunnah should be followed. But before I discuss something WAAAAAAAY out of my league (b/c nomads believe I have no intelligence in this matter, nor do I have the capacity to do research and read books), I will say that Hadith (as written by Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, etc etc) is not infallible. This is according to scholars, to Bukhari and such removing "fabricated" hadiths from their books, insertions of disclaimers by these scholars, etc etc. So pardon me when I say that the Koran, the unchanged word of God, is the PRIMARY source of our deen and anything else is SECONDARY. I did not discuss Nabi Muhammmad in this discussion, nor did I say that his way was right or wrong. So in saying all of this (quite unnecessarily), I would like certain nomads to stop putting words in my mouth and to start doing their own RESEARCH before they speak of things they are not knowledgeable on. Baashi, I do like your style though. It's like the civil way of being uncivil. Very classy (and I do hope you sense the sarcasm).

Originally posted by Modesty: I say that Somalia is better without a central gov't.If anything, Somalia should have some type of Islamic gov't that plays a central role. You want to trust the people who started civil wars with an Islamic state? That's being a little too hopeful don't you think?

Originally posted by Gediid: Islam clearly states that women get more Ajar praying at home than at the mosque. Actually there is no directive in the Koran that women get less ajar. That is our first source of ISLAM. A smaller space will always be there to accomadate those women who wish to come to mosques and pray there but an equal size space I don't think so. Why not? I know someone stated that times have changed well tough luck Islam is not a dynamic religion. Actaully it is. It came down in 632 AD and a million centuries later the principles of Islam will stay the same. The Koran came down in 632 AD and there is still NO verse in the Koran about women getting less ajar by praying at the mosque. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: @ Feminist issue. I think the male nomads make this a feminist issue in order to make this issue seem less credible. Can you find another scapegoat please, cuz this one is played OUT!

Our language is too mixed with Arabic, Persian, and Latin words. How is it unique?

The Imams are men. That is what is on the screen, am I right? That happens to be reality, am I right?

^ Right :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Look, I know you're joking and all, but I don't find the whole bra-burning thing that funny! Why do men insist on calling women feminist when they talk about ANY issue concering them? That my dear, is my example of systematic sexism. :rolleyes:

^Actually, I'm more of a fox than an owl

Originally posted by NGONGE: Do we inform, educate and challenge those behind this injustice? Do we force our way into a mosque and let these guys know that we’re here to stay? How does America deal with the racial disparities in the U.S.? One of the ways is Affirmitive action because the problem is so deep-rooted, that even if you outlaw discrimination, it will still exist systematically. The problem of not letting women in the mosques is a deep-rooted issue as well. On the surface, mosques give excuses as you have, but they are systematically leaving the women out to the point where even women believe that they don't belong there. Yes, we (women) should demand the right to be present at the mosques. It's tough trying to do that when we are so outnumbered and the Imams just happen to be men. PS: well you can't see it from a woman's P.O.V. because you aren't trying!

Originally posted by Mutakalim: Are Mosques sister freindly? Ah! such a intellectually ephermal thread is this. And herein, in the debate forum, I thought I would read a treatise on metaphysics or the islamic dialectics. Alas! some such subjects serve not as sustenance to the lay audience. :rolleyes: This wasn't meant to be a philosophical discussion. Sorry to dissapoint. But, if you look at 99% of other topics under the Camel Milk Debate, you might find what you're looking for

Seven of Nine, I didn't know half the people you listed were that short!!!! Now I feel like a tall giant. A tall giant that can step on the King of Jordan, that is

Now I remember why I dislike you----r posts!

Sure I pray. Am I free to be a muslim now?

Using your argument Khayr, I can show you why the women's side should be of equal size, if not more. You discuss the nighttime issue of safety. Granted, that is a given, regardless of where your at. Most women in any case do not walk about alone in dark alley ways, but drive cars, take their spouses or walk in pairs or more. Also, there are many mosques that are located couple of blocks to these women's house. We have a mosque one block away. We also have a police station one block from the mosque. In this day and age, there are safety measures that women can take to protect themselves. But then again, that would take the whole community to change the mentality that a woman is always under threat and that she does not have options to protecting herself, ie. carrying mase, cellphones, taking self-defense classes, early education for men as a preventative measure against sexually assaulting women:) . Also, the times that accomodation is really a problem on both sides (men and women) is during the friday prayers. You know very well that the men's section is not packed everyday, but only on that day. Friday prayers are during the daytime. Most people (men and women) want to pray with the community. So your argument about the safety does not really apply here, as the women's lives are not in danger (while in the meantime we fail to address the ones who are doing the crime against these women). Let me tell you what happened to a sister who wants to covert to Islam 2 fridays ago. She was properly dressed for the mosque and as she was walking out, a muslim man (sporting a full beard and khamiis) stops her. So what does this man say to her? "As a muslim you should not dress like that, I should not be able to see the shape of your butt, I should not be able to see the shape of your breasts, etc etc" . This is coming from a muslim man. And this would be considered a form of verbal assualt, since the sister was dressed to the nines in typical muslim clothing. But the logical thing for people to say to her is pray at home so you won't get assaulted like that next time? (This to a person who wants to become muslim in the first place). I think not, we should be able to discuss the issue, find out where the underlying problems lie, and find a way to fix it. In the case of this brother, he should have been reported to the local Imam and put to shame infront of all the other muslims for approaching a woman like that. And what happened to men keeping their end of the surat that instructs women to wear hijab. The surat about lowering the gaze. And what about the second glance is surely from the shaitan? Why aren't these muslim brothers (and surely not ALL, because I do believe there are the good guys) that hang around the entrances of the mosques not practicing the lowering of the gaze, and why isnt it not given as much importance as the Hijab is, even though they originate from the same ayaat? But I digress! In any case, I don't think the issue of safety is of utmost importances in this era. ETA: I took your example of "what being a muslim is". But stop dodging questions, cuz people notice

Nur, I totally agree that the Koran definately holds the key to the whole religion. The first and only infallible source of knowledge and deen.

*two thumbs up*

Originally posted by Khayr: Salaamz, saxib you are right 'ITS THE WAY SHE FRAMED THE QUESTION' and her question is RHETORICAL meaning she knows the answer to it and she just wants to make us look like fools. Now, when someone RAISES AN ISSUE, you can't SEPERATE the PERSONALITY/SPEAKER and the ISSUE. They relate and if someone different had posed the issue/question, then the responses would probably be different. DA/OPI, if you do your daily salats, then you are a muslim and inshallah, I can give you room. But if you ain't doing the min'm and you're critiquing everything Eastern and Islam, then we will continue to debate. I was being civil when I asked the question. I could have been more accusatory, and bla bla bla, but fact is, I wasn't. I asked a question, devoid of any other implications. Are there any verses? And if you think saying that there isn't a direct verse for this issue makes you a fool, then it seems like your pride is getting in the way. I take offense when someone implies that I don't get as much ajar as the next muslim when I go to a mosque because of my gender. I don't know who else wouldn't but I speak for me (and not for iblis or any other fancy name the shaitan is reserved for). Again, praying daily makes me a muslim? If I don't pray, I am not then a sinning muslim, but totally outside the scope of Islam as a Kufr. I didn't read that anywhere either. Interesting tidbits I am learning online these days.

Originally posted by Salafi_Online: ^^^^ NO this is in accordance with the religion of ABu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and the rest of the companions? I assume you follow them to! “we’re conversing with someone who campaigns for Ibliss!†and i do Apologize for these remarks! Indeed they were uncalled for! Abu Bakr, Umar, uthman, etc were fine religious political leaders, not scholars. and I don't follow them because they were human beings, and not divinely. I do follow the teachings of Allah and Prophet Muhammad. That's just how I was raised though. And Apology accepted (as I know it was coerced) :cool:

Wouldnt that be in accordance to your belief system: your sect, subsect, madhab, scholar, theological reasoning, etc etc?

^ I hope you are not implying I am Kufr. Because trust you me, I will not back down. And Are you Godly that you know if someone's Shahada has been accepted or not? Obviously you don't know the first thing about this religion. You need to go back to the Koran and read it carefully next time, maybe you'll find more guidance from your arrogance and self-righteousness. Meanwhile, I will continue my original topic with people who want to talk about issues in their community, because god forbid, someone (especially a woman) critizes the local mosque for not being accomadating is equivalant to a disbeliever.

Originally posted by Salafi_Online: Devils(Iblis) Advocate You have not defended any of your contentions; the claim that the Quran is the only flawless source remains unanswered and Rahima may All preserve her, squelched your bizarre model of comprehension, but who are we kidding; we’re conversing with someone who campaigns for Ibliss! And since you Please stop making references to my name in such a negative light. I do not call you names, and I would like the same respect. I only ask this once. And I thought shirk was a very bad bad thing. We have a Group who adheer to the Quran and reject all the Sunnah, save those that supports an ayah from the Book Of Allah, they are Known as the'Quraniyoon/Quraani" they are kafur(disbelievers) and their blood is Halal, nor is praying behind them permissable! Nice to know. And while you are at it, is there a verse that states that they are Kufars? and I thought believers are people who believe in Allah and the Rasulullah? Wouldnt disbelievers be the ones who reject both? Wouldn't disbelievers be the ones who associate things/people/books/statues to God? Why do you put this little paragraph on bold in any case? These are the questions of the day.

Originally posted by Khayr: DA/OPI, Rahima layed it down for you and you couldn't refute her arguments. EXAMPLE: If someone says that its Makruh/Disliked or even Haram to Talk on your cell phone while driving on the Highway b/c its life threatening and you said 'Where is the Ayat?' you question would be considered more of an INSULT rather then a question b/c there would be no ayat referring to 'Cellphones and cars' Get the Point! :rolleyes: Ofcourse not, cause its not criticizing Islam or coming from you. Your WESTERN FEMINIST BIAS towards ISLAM and RELIGION blockkkkkkkkkkkkks your Comprehension of any concepts that goes further than the 15th century. quote: Sura Al-Baqarah(6. Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.) (7. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment). «يَا Ù…ÙÙ‚ÙŽÙ„Ùبَ الْقÙÙ„Ùوب٠ثَبّÙتْ Ù‚ÙÙ„Ùوبَنَا عَلى دÙينÙك» O You Who changes the hearts, make our hearts firm on Your religion.) Ameen Rahima took the topic to another direction and I simply tried to bring it back. People have a way of not wanting to answer the direct question and instead go on to some obscure other topic and try to make a point there. The fact of the matter is: There is no verse. It wouldn't hurt to say that and it will bring the topic back to the original discussion at hand (which is of course Mosque and its accomodations (or lack thereof) for women). With respects to your "example", if someone told me its a makruh/disliked, I would like them to explain by first giving me reference to the first source, the Koran. Then support it with Hadith, Shariah, opinions of scholars, etc etc. Second, if it is makruh, there probably isnt a verse anyway, and If you do the act then its not really a sin. Does this make me western in thinking? Does this make me critize Islam? Does this make me a "western feminist biased against all things Islam"? I guess according to you, I am. That is, if your opinions even mattered because so far you havent even discussed the REAL issue here: Are mosques really sister-friendly? :cool: ETA: Any credibility you had with me has just went to hell (no pun intended). Resorting to name calling does not make you more intelligent, but the opposite. Next time, I will notify the admins if you cuss me out like that again.

Originally posted by Salafi_Online: ^^^ what are your responses to my two questions, consider this, how did Bukhari know those Hadith that were fabricated? U stated earlier that he came 200 years after the prophet(saw)? He doesnt receive revelations from Allah does he ? This is your faith DA surely you must know a tad about it! Are the explanations protected by Allah? a yes or no response wont hurt!Its an issue of Infallibility! "We have sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (the Qur'ân), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought." 16:44 I see, so Bukhari got visions for Allah, is that what you are saying. Because I did not read this in the books. Interesting.

Rahima, I would love to once again get into a theological debate with you, but I feel we will digress from the topic at hand. All you could have said was there are no VERSES. That's it. End of debate. Whether I accept or reject the hadith is not the issue, nor do you know what I truly believe. All I was asking (and I repeat) is, FIND ME AN AYAAT. I do not wish to find out (thru cut and paste, mind you) how, where and what the hadiths are all about, as if I didn't know anything about them. You insult my intelligence when you do that.

Rahima, Bukhari discarded many Hadiths due to fabrications. That's a fact. I would really love to know the "Extraneous" methods in which the Hadith became as infallible as the Koran, but that's a discussion for another time. As far as me finding you ayaats about praying, that again is not the discussion at hand. A nomad was telling me that women get less ajar in the mosque, and I asked him to prove it using a surat. But I guess people are still giving me the run around.

Salafi Online, I don't believe that its ludicrious that Allah protects the Koran. And Memory is proven to be corruptible, even in the best of people. There is a difference in having faith in people like Abu Huraira and Bukhari than saying they were superhumans. Otherwise, why do all scholars (including Bukhari, hanbali, maliki, etc) would not have disclaimers in their books.