^^Yes, because of the 7 is not a "man who argues with atheist on the bus or forums" And in Islam fantasies count for nothing, it is your actions and intention. I feel like I've been made to sound like some kind of freak fundamentalist. I'm just a girl (with opinions), stop asking me questions and find a knowledgeable shike/ shikha.

^^The end of the joke was that her friend digged up the grave the next day, got cheque and cashed it Hey CL

^^Johnny you have no place in this discussion,dis-figuring women kullah, I mean seriously you would rather everyone (the good looking ones at least) walked around naked. The Islamic-ness of the Burka is that it fulfils the basic characteristics of a hijab, (if it had a whole in the backside revealing their as*s then no I won’t support it or call it a hijab.) Furthermore it is not banned in Islam, and in Islam everything is lawful unless it is declared unlawful. I'm not an open-minded person at all, I just don't like people telling others what to do. Don't get it twisted atheer. I am always with the Muslims right they be or wrong; If they are right I will support them, if they are wrong, I will support them by correcting them- hence I can never be open-minded.

Not so fast dear, I asked you: 1) Vocally object to a women who has chosen to cover her face for her own reasons: Maybe out of piety, maybe because she thinks her face is too pretty, maybe she finds it comforting or is shy. 2) OR support legislations by non-Muslim to ban or advocate for the oppression of this Muslimah who has made a different choice. What makes you (the said advocate) any better than the Taliban who tried to enforce the opposite. Explain to me how you are not the two side of the same coin please? The Bukra is a form of hijab that fulfils the conditions of a Hijab and covers additional areas (hands &face) which they don't have to; Now if she made that choice, regardless of whether it is pretty or comfortable or she looks like a robber (Arab or otherwise) What is your objection and why would you force them to take it off?? :confused: That has been my question all along, since last year I’ve been watching you and trying to figure out exactly what it was that your objection was based on; At one point I thought you was against all hijab, another time I thought you was fashionable and felt embarrassed by them, now I feel like you are just pis*sed off they going an extra mile that they don’t need to. Go back and read any thread on this topic I have ever commented on; I’ve always said, it is not required, however it is a form of hijab and for those who made their own choice to dress that way I will support them and we have no right to bully them. As for pious reasons, I don't like to comment on it because Allah knows their intentions, whether it is for their husband or Allah or friend, or maybe they feel it helps them spiritually. I have wore niqabs a few times, I don't think I could say it was for pious reasons, often it was because I was in a situation where 1000 Muslim men were coming out and they just stare at you or if you are doing a charity collection, you don't want to mess up their intentions and I'm shy, plus I don't want them to see my face. This is similar to What Aisha said: “The riders used to pass by us when we were with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in ihrām (the sacred state one enters when going to hajj or ‘Umrah). When they came near, each of us would lower her Jilbāb from her head over her face, and when they passed by we would uncover (our faces).” [Narrated by Abū Dāwūd, 1833; Ahmad, 24067 Asian do this by using their hijab as part covering over their lower face. In any case, I like having that option. Btw, I have worn a niqab and a Burka previously and it was very comfortable, aside from the people who kept looking at me, I felt free and light, It was summer (English summer), maybe you should try to wear it. My atheist friend and I swapped clothing for a day so she can experience a day in the life of a Muslimah(she wore gloves, niqab and Burka) while another friend followed us about with a video recorder. Although it took her a while to get use to walking, and it was only for a day, her main complaint was that as a model she is use to people looking at her when she is out and about,but now people looked at her with suspicion and that made her want to laugh or scare them. P.s. you do not have a signature? :confused: P.s.s. I don't want to end the discussion (Aliamos & I came to a common ground) now I'm trying to do the same as you. So please put your ego of Lazy is right aside and answer the questions so I can at least understand why you feel the need to dictate to these women what to wear (like the men you hate on) Can't they just do what they want without you or a man or government telling them so? What of the man who forces a woman to wear the darn thing on a hot, humid day? Atleast the ban would allow her to breath normal. Can the folks on the other side of the aisle say the same thing? The man and you who wants to force them to take it off are the same to me, neither of you have any right to do so. Just let be will ya. P.s. Marx is right, but think of me as a hair dresser- she can't control where people go or who they show their hair to after she made the hair beautiful and sexy

Arraweelo was a fab Queen, although I do wonder how much of what we hear about her now is true. I think Somalia could do with an Arraweelo right about now. We should start a forerunner group: The rise of Arraweelo. There is division of roles in Somali culture, but Somali women despite not getting the same opportunities in education, marrying young and so on, haadan when you hear stories I can't help but marvel at their wit, intelligence and independency in thought and in household decision making.

^^Hello Jibreel, how is you and your family?

Ibti - when you are shouting at me - don't i deserve the kid gloves and the niceties that you are encouraging me to handle with atheist?? and for your information - i don't work with atheist. - however i don't mind working with hindus Sayid it piss*es me off when Muslims act so unreasonable, and you should know better because we have a perfect example in the prophet (PBUH). Look in the Sirah on how the prophet dealt with hypocrites like AbdAllah ibn Ubayy . Muslims did not follow them about, swearing and abusing them and the prophet forbade that anyone harms him and his group, even though Allah revealed to them that they were not believers and were plotting against them and undermining them. So I don’t feel the need to babysit , convince or abuse people who have followed a different path. On the same token, you and your actions are ambassador of Islam, so I will be harsh on you. P.s. Hindus and Atheist are the same from a Islamic point of view. Both have not believed in Allah. So naga daa sheekad. Aliamos I was thinking like him, till she stood up

Sayid Keligi Muslim ha nooqan. Religion is a private affair between inviduals and Allah. Maxaad ka rabta people? I'm looking to visit Spain, Itlay and France this year inshallah, but I don't like open racism. I'd rather they hide it well like the English.

My fav one is the office party http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNbUKIkRieM&feature=SeriesPlayList&p=136C35B8803CC87B

^^You would think so, but Somalis general are good defenders. Instead of listening they are too busy planning what they are going to say next. Maybe Somali MPs should write letters to each other, and war lords too. Might help them get on the same page. [never mind, another topic, another day]

Juxa I don't believe in diets.

^^You should have said so; we are not mind readers. Here is him on a blind date: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZUHCLtnYFQ&NR=1 lol

loool Racism is so hard to hide, I guess in places like Spain and Belgium, they do not see enough black people to human-fy black people. So they are just stuck with TV and media representation of black people. Your experience reminded me of this Sayid; seriously you need help with your paranoia. In any case I know you work with a huge none-Muslim population and some of them you love, eat, laugh and crack jokes with. Why then do you get your pants in a twist and cannot give someone who have a different faith to you or no faith the same respect. :confused: I’m sure you don’t think that Tom, Dick and Harry are better somehow because they happen to be white and none-Muslim. Get a grip man, it says something about your own confused double standard and inability to follow their Islamic rules of interactions. In any case you don’t know what if anything the poster believes in, and for all you know he/she could be a better Muslim than you.

Freedom of choice is a right, regardless of what we think of peoples decision; It just gives me a headache that people who are against Taliban or Alshabab can then advocate for a ban. I wish people would just leave women to make their own decision about what to wear. We can’t on the one hand object to forceful wearing on the basis for freedom of choice and then forcefully remove it from those who want to wear it. No problem and thank you, after 5yrs of SOL you and lazy forced me to write a few essays.

Juxa why? You are just bones. Sayid, never took sweets to school. I was too poor to spend money on buying sweets for spolit little Bengalis. Plus I can share anything in life so long as it is not sweets or a husband.

Juxa I just got a box of Arab Bakalawa. Want some?

SalamAlikum all. His Juxa: Faheema go to the GP or the walk in center at our local hospital, you don't even need an appointment. North Happy birthday, may you see many more years. Add to your check list this year "Although I feel 27, my body is 35, so take care with playing ball" Happy bday to Juxa sister who does not go online too. Hello Baluug (I don't want u to feel left out)

Originally posted by Cicero: Ibti, the reason why I reject and oppose Islam does have a foundation. It's reason and logic, experiment and observation. Islam claims that Muhammad is a special person, a prophet of God; that the Quran is the miraculous word of the creator of the Universe. But these are very extraordinary claims with scant evidence. In fact,there's nothing in the Quran to suggest it's a miracle. It can be explained by natural and historical causes. Verses like beating women and the obsession with menstrual cycles and female control all point to the unmistakbly human origins of this book. I think it is a good sociological record of 7th century arabia. It provides anthropologists with insights into the arab pysche. But it's not a good manual for ethics and morality. Cicero then I am sure you will agree it is pointless to debate the current application of something that you think is sociological record of 7th Century Arabia; A better place to start would be to examin your so called logical, reasonable reasons and compare it with believers claim of the origins of the Quran and their proof. Talking about application is a waste of my time and yours and not helpful to either one of us.

Sura An-Nur, verses 30-31: English translation(Light) The above verses you shared were the same verses I brought to Sheikh Nur's attention, in order to get clarity on how he understood said verses, which we are still waiting for him to share and you have done the same, where you have said what you said of the same verses. When I brought it up last year, I did it to first get an understanding on how proponents of the Burka interpret verses that specifically deal with matters of dressing modestly, both for women and men. Okay, I can’t answer Nur, so I hope he gives you your answer. You are the first one who actually attempted to re-vive these very same verses, so, I grand your request of me, which is to bring forth verses that deal with women and women garments, which surprisingly is the same verses I once opened a thread on, but this time, I will share how I interpreted the said verses, along with Chapter 33, verse 59. For the following is said of a 'Woman and dressing Modesty'(after all we are dealing with Burka, so we should limit ourselves to verses that only concern our sex):- quote: ________________________________________ And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed. ________________________________________ I like your translation better; so 1) Reduce your vision 2) Guard their private parts 3) Don’t expose their adornment except what necessarily already shows 4) Wrap your head/ cover your head and part of the head covering should extend to cover your chest 5) List of those who can see your adornment 6) Don’t stamp your feet. Simple enough, to the point and at the end, it instructs women to protect their goodies, i.e not to expose their nakedness to anyone that does not fall under the above category, especially against those that are more likely to engage or draw the woman to break her promise to Allah, thereby covering over 'bosoms' with the same cloth as that is is on her head. So far agree 100% However, it does not instruct a woman to conceal her face but I can see why some commentary of the Qur'an would interpret as beauty being identified with the facial only. Beauty is not limited to just the facial and if we are speaking frankly, the saying of "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder" is appropriate for this part of the discussion because it all boils down to individual liberty to see beauty as one sees fit. I'm sure we don't want to get into a discussion about what true "beauty" really constitutes...some men would say, well, as long as she has an attractive face, that will do for me. Others will say, face matters not and the body, especially her chest and her lower body is more attractive than just the face alone. So far so good, I have no issues The part about not exposing her beauty to anyone that does not fall under the above category is a direct violation of this verse, which makes sense but again, what is beauty to you? We are talking lustful actions here, sexual intercourse, body and soul, exposed for eternal pleasure but does it limit to face? Apparently taliban thinks so. I’m not too bothered about what beauty is, I think every has to cover the same basic thing You have to understand, women of the period weren't awliyo, they were buck wild. YOu could rarely tell who was a convert and who did not adhere to the new religion. all in all, not much distinct from the none converts and this particular verse was how would be able to tell apart from the non-muslims. I think this is still th case partly anyway. In pagan Arab culture, one woman was shared by atleat 4-5 men at a time, so the idea here is to refrain from such conduct and to only expose yourself to your husband and not to anyone else. (thats why marriage was important) This was a direct instruction against pagan practice. Islam had to establish itself as a religion and the light chapter is a reflection of such reform. You can say Islam was reforming the practices of the period, thereby making a direct statement. Also possible and true. On the other verse(Chapter 33, verse 59), it says: quote: ________________________________________ O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful. ________________________________________ For us Somalia, this could be a Dirac and a Garbasaar that would conceal your figure or for the Arabs it could be their own garment or even a sizable men's overalls. So 7) characteristic is to conceal your figure, cover the whole body so that nothing is exposed. Moderation, instructions to wear loose clothes that conceals the woman's figure. If the said garment is long enough to cover her body, including but not limited to the head, it does not object, matter of fact it welcomes it. The way I interpret this particular verse is that its a clause that is revealed for the sole protection of the female. Again, the question of the shape of the female which may entice some men to do more than look is spoken against. I just don't see how this verse speaks of Burka. A material which covers her body, not limited to the head to protect the female. Various interpretations of the above verse are available but this commentary should sum it all up: quote: ________________________________________ O Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks closely over themselves ________________________________________ (again not exclusive to the face but the body as a whole, covering up, making sure the woman's figure is not exposed to the wondering eyes) PS: I think the Hijab crowd should perhaps take a second look at the mirror before they leave the house with their tight jeans and Hijab over their head, thinking iney asturan yihiin, which this verse speaks against it. lol agree. So in conclusion I have no problem with your definition of Hijab, its characteristics and you probably have a better understanding of level of modesty meets such standard than some hijabs. My understanding: So as far as I am concerned, ALL the above are forms of Hijab, you can throw the dirac and shawl in there too, not to mention the Asian Shalwa khamis, to the Abayah in the Middle East, or the Moroccan Dresses. All of them have the basic 7 characteristics and some like the Burka go above and beyond that which is mentioned. I look at these basic characteristics as the minimum that is expected of a Muslimah. What she adds to is entirely her own business. My role as a fellow Muslimah is to support and respect her CHOICE in the form of Hijab she wears, the style, material and design are all individual concepts and basically a matter of taste. Whether I approve or like or think it is attractive is neither here or there. For this simple reason I will always a support a women option to wear or not wear, and if she does wear it, how she wears it. We’ve agreed that in the Quran there is no evidence of facial covering, this means it is not part of the basic criteria and as such there is no sin or compulsion from the deen. This is why I disagreed with the Taliban, because they made something that was at best recommended by scholars or in a hadith compulsory, but they also enforced this notion by force; there by the women had no choice in the matter. But what I do not get is why you would: 1) Vocally object to a women who has chosen to cover her face for her own reasons: Maybe out of piety, maybe because she thinks her face is too pretty, maybe she finds it comforting or is shy. 2) OR support legislations by non-Muslim to ban or advocate for the oppression of this Muslimah who has made a different choice. What makes you (the said advocate) any better than the Taliban who tried to enforce the opposite. Explain to me how you are not the two side of the same coin please? 3) If a Muslim was engaging in an action that was not harmful to society (i.e. endangering society) but just made people uncomfortable or changed the landscape or just scares people, i.e. Wearing a niqab/ burka; I would never support a none-Muslim against a Muslim. 4) Many people think that to none-Muslims they care what sect you are, or if you are a modern Muslim or traditional Muslim or Fundamental Muslim; we Muslims should not open the door for banning and oppressing our minority. This just makes it easy to pick us off one by one. An interest case which has nothing to do with this area is the issue of little Muslim organisations in London; They were engaged in this little in house fighting between mosques and committees, so they tried to use the media against each other and point the finger at each other. Sadly to the media and general British public, we all look the same, the resulted documentary was severely damaging to the Muslim community and resulted in shutting down of facilities and banning of lessons in certain masjids. This in fighting is what is destroying our community; we spend so much energy and effort trying to destroy the brother or sister who has a different view to us that we forget that we are a minority in countries where they really don’t care about what conditions we have to satisfy. My point is, if we support the ban of the niqab or the Burka, how long before the long dress and hijab is seen as extreme and that ban is extended (remember the niqab and Burka only seem extreme now because they are uncommon and partly because its been misused by certain groups) . We are not supposed to be the forerunners who hang the rope that is later used to dangle us from a balcony; if anything we should try to legitimise the Burka/ niqab as well informed choice made by individuals who are the same as you and I. Aliamos Your right, it is getting boring, length, no direction and i'm too tired to read.

Cara; I did not say I want to hang out with him :rolleyes: Shiid women I was just going to take the ticket and then deny it later. CL you see, Cara is too American; we don't do groupies cara Juxa, I like going on holidays alone, too many people means too much time debating what everyone wants to do.

Cara I met a Yankee basket ball player who is quite rich and still no injuries, he offered a paid for holiday there, if I accept can I come and stay with you, sort of go AWOL on him from landing. Loool @ Juxa.

I think her husband will draw the line at a male tag along, and one without Muslims morals at that Afternoon Johnny. Juxa; Lily is not going, and if she does you guys take one holiday with the same amount of dosh I take 5 holidays on.

CL, her husband will approve, she just needs to fake a depressive break down. Sayid, I think Malika ayeeyodba sanka aya lo saranyah ee iska daaf

^^^You do? :eek: ; Biskina iyo Yasinka this calls for family conference; I am, I don't like to admit to it because everyone then asks me if he pays for my lifestyle, university, sweets and holidays. I like to think I work hard for my own way. And yes she is married, but wa free women

^^^My boss asked if I wanted to extend my contract after April or should they advertise the post. I told him No, no I am so going and never coming back. Why don't you take off with me in April for round the world ticket. I feel to do just that. when I come back broke, I am going to go on the dole with five different names.