Hello people

SalamAlikum; No wonder you are not convinced. Thats because Ibti's views are shaped by 30 or so Burka wearers. If it were upto Ibti, she would convince the world that these women represent the silent majority and that we should take their word over the thousands of women whose lives were shattered because of the Burka in their home countries.(public record) You have yet to back this up. Where in the west have 1000s womens life been shattered lazy??? Also you have started to perform for the audience, remember we started this discussion on our own to achieve an understanding, so instead of all of sudden addressing the audience and referring to me in that context, please return to dialogue. Ibti draws the intimate experiences of the 30 or so women at the expense of the victims of Burka. These thousand or so women who say they have been coerced into wearing the material in the first place and that their lives were at risk at some point or another because of the Burka are not legitimate source, nor should their words be taken at face value because its a western agenda and perhaps these women are agents of the west, sent to spread lies about the good muslim by portraying the said garment in a negative light. On the other hand, the words of the said 30 or so amazing ladies that Ibti draws from her experiences are the sole authority of the Burka, thereby dismissing the thousand or so that have endured the lashes just because Ibti says its a personal choice and her ladies say its personal choice too, which means we should take their word and put the 'to wear or not to wear' subject to rest. Lets just say I know 30 Burka wearing women, (which I don’t know, I know more Burka wearing women than non-Burka wearing, furthermore I have travelled Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, India, not to mention Somalia where I have met Burka wearing women, some of them for the strangest reasons and raging from salafist, shia, Sunni and few other random sects) but for the sake of argument, lets just say I know 30 happy Burka wearing women. How many Burka wearing women do you know, (Happy or unhappy?? One? Two? Zero?) I keep asking you this have you ever even exchanged salams with one, even if she had a black eye and broken leg? The fact is, I still have more interaction with them than you, you draw ALL your conclusions from YOUR own thoughts and Tabloid newspapers/ shows. at least I have a sample data. Ibti's counter-argument is flawed, in that on the one hand, she insist that it is a personal choice and because Islam does not prescribe the garment, it doesn't mean that is outlaw by Islam, thereby insisting that the right for a woman to wear the Burka should be granted and no one should stand in the way of it. On the same token, Ibti argues that the material brings some women (the said 30 or so) closer to God by turning them away from worldy sins and vanity and into God, in other words, the motivation to wear Burka is an 'exaggerated penance', which only the Burka can fulfill. Never said only the Burka can fulfill, some may do other things too. This could mean one of two things: Either the women battling inner demons and the Burka conceals the darkness from the world and away from prying eyes or they believe that Burka would single handily wash away their sins, thereby allowing them to be closer to God because they have embarked on the ultimate sacrifice, "covering their identity from the public" , so why wouldn't Allah grand them forgiveness? After all, the garment is made from harsh material and the dark screens that the figure represents a ghost like figure, thereby, subjecting themselves through penance in the Burka. What? Come again sister. The Burka is not a torture Process nor hardship for those who wear it because they want to :confused: And as for Ibti's high heel research? Ibti, Ibti, when did this discussion turn away from the Burka and into the world of stilettos? Let us keep our eyes on the prize because we don't want anything to distract you from your mission of putting this topic to rest but as soon as you bring distractions into the discussion, the Burka just doesn't go away. The correlation since you would like to pretend you did not see it was because YOU (not me) You brought up the issue of the Burka and alcohol induce behavior, and association of danger. So I asked you if you are saying Burka should be banned based on the danger it causes its wears, then how far do social institutions go in engineering behavior, High heels? Which clearly are more dangerous than the Burka. Read it again if you did not see it the first time. As for turning away from sin, Theresa of Avila once told of the moment she felt that God had admonished her for her youthful sins and from that point on, she did everything to feel God's love through spiritual healing. Denouncing worldly goods, giving her body and soul to serving God, which was anything she has yet experienced. Theresa once said "The memory of the favor God has granted does more to bring such a person back to God than all the infernal punishments imaginable." For her, loving God with all of her body and soul meant that she would not offend him. (the more she loved him and was closer to him, the harder it had gotten of offending God by being sinful) What we can take from the good lady? Her devotion to God in this world and the next. Collective works that brought her closer, it strengthened her iman. For Theresa, there was no other alternative, thereby defining her closeness to God through her collective good works was the way. Theresa continued to work hard, day and night, praying to God, indulging in mental prayer, denouncing her friends and the evil spirits but this surely was not enough. She knew she had to do more for she had tried to serve God by becoming nun and even that could not fulfill the sorrow she felt or fill her empty heart. All in all, nothing she did was ever enough, or atleast she felt that way, until she started dedicating her time to others. Her life as she knew it didnt end with being the best nun she could be, there had to be more, thats why she believed that good intentions were not enough, instead good actions is what counts with God, in which she said: "Good effects were better than pious sensations that only make the person praying feel good". By God was Theresa right and no amount of Burka would cleanse the soul of evil, even Burka, instead, good actions will go along way with God. (may her soul respect in peace) What is your point sis. (by the way she too wore a Jalbib (the Somali and Arab, exactly the same even in the layers) Example of good action: Feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, treating the sick. Devoting your life to others, that is what counts but I do not hear you saying any of that coupled with wearing the Burka, instead, Burka alone should be the good works of a Muslim woman. Being pious is all about the clothing when we both know that God can see through everyone and everything. At the end, I hope you take no offense when I say that I'm not convinced(just as cicero and others are not convinced), instead, I'm left with more questions than every before with every post. Now you are jumping from post to pillar, Lazy no one said that anyone will go to heaven based on what they wore, and those actions you listed above are beloved and advised in Islam, however they are NOT compulsory like prayer, hijab, Fasting etc. As for you not being convinced, Cicero Will never be convinced because he does not believe in religion, the very idea that something has to be done for a God offends him. You just have some questions, which I have taken the time to look at and given you my feed back as best as I can. Whether you buy it, or not is up to you at the end of the day. I hope that I have made you question your stance at least and that questioning will compel you to do your own research and seek your own answers in this topic. I’m just an individual, I’m not a preacher or a scholar or a learned one. Just giving my two cents like everyone else on this forum. Ibti, can you honestly sit there and say that you have given your all in presenting a convincing argument for the burka? Instead, we are reading about one distraction after another.... Indeed I have to the best of my ability and my knowledge. My aim was to make you question your own stance and how you form a conclusion and advocate for a ban on something which all your knowledge comes from heresy and for me to understand why you feel such outrage and hatred for garments that people choice to wear in the west when they could just as easily throw it out the window as soon as they arrive from those oppressive regime. Although you started well, I feel that the sincerity is fleeing as we progress, and I feel that nothing will be gained because you have become preoccupied with maintaining your position and defending it regardless. As a result you have failed to answer most of the questions I asked you in my last two posts, instead nit picking and continuously repeating the same things, despite the fact I have responded to every point you have risen in this discussion and tried to get you beyond the “I know they are forced and beaten, because I just know they are even though they don’t say they are”. Do you see how many correlations and statements you draw on from this basic statement based on your own thought process?? I’d like you to look at this as a leaning process rather than a debate or a challenge where your way must be imposed. Maybe one day you will come back to it after having met some Burka wearing sisters and reflect. Maybe you will never change your stance, but at least be aware of the huge gaps in your reasoning and the limits of your statements. Kind regards Salamah

^^^ yahoo, In any case I thought always wa la xiishooda, I don't know what I said that offended your xiishood radar. :rolleyes: Perhaps next time you can just skip past it. :cool:

Fresh measures to track terror suspects and strengthen airport security after the attempted Christmas Day bomb plot have been announced by Gordon Brown. A "no-fly list" is to be set up to stop suspected terrorists from travelling to the UK while other individuals under suspicion will undergo thorough checks. Direct flights between Yemen to UK are also to be suspended until concerns about their safety are addressed. The UK faced "active" terrorist threats from across the world, the PM said. 'Tracking terrorists' Mr Brown ordered a review of airport security in the wake of the attempted Christmas Day bombing of a flight to Detroit, believed to have been planned in Yemen. Following the review and further intelligence briefings, he told MPs that the government would introduce a range of measures to protect the UK's borders and further strengthen aviation and airport security. He said the Home Office's current watch list - a register of known criminals and terrorists as well as those considered a threat to security - would be extended to identify those "posing the greatest risk" to the UK. A new "no-fly list" will identify individuals who will not be allowed to enter the country because of suspected terrorist links. Individuals who have attracted the attention of the authorities but are considered lower-risk will be listed in a second category. They will be subject to "special measures", such as more extensive screening, before being allowed to fly to the UK, although officials said they could not divulge what this would entail. By the end of the year, all UK airports and ports will be covered by the e-borders scheme, which he said meant information passengers provide when buying tickets can be checked against the watch lists. Enhanced global co-operation would mean that suspect individuals could be checked against the watch list 24 hours before they boarded a flight to, or via, the UK. Other initiatives he outlined to MPs include new teams of intelligence officers who will seek to identify individuals who present a threat to security early on, well before they come to the UK. Ministers also want the EU, the US and other G8 nations to share intelligence about security threats more effectively and help countries with gaps in their security arrangements to fill them Mr Brown, who said he had discussed the measures with US President Barack Obama on Tuesday, also confirmed that new full body scanners would be introduced at British airports next week. The prime minister said the objective of the enhanced security measures was to ensure terrorist movements could be "seamlessly tracked and disrupted" both in the UK and abroad. "It is because we fully recognise the global nature of the terrorist threat we face today that our response must be truly global," he said. "Some of the intelligence we need to protect our people against attacks will be here in Britain, some will be held by our international partners and passed to us, just as we help them with information about the threats they face." Growing radicalisation The Conservatives, who have called for a "radical" rethink of the UK's security approach, welcomed the introduction of a "no-fly list" but said the threat posed by individuals already in the UK must be recognised. Tory leader David Cameron said the man who tried to detonate the Christmas Day bomb was radicalised in the UK before going to Yemen. "Doesn't that show that more needs to be done to tackle radicalisation right here in the UK?", he said. Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg called for guarantees that peoples' civil liberties would be protected amid the tougher measures. The BBC's Security Correspondent Frank Gardner said the move to suspend twice-weekly flights from Yemen to the UK was prompted by concerns that another attack on Western interests could be imminent. UK officials were also worried that airport security at Sana'a, the Yemeni capital, was not good enough, he added. The Nigerian man arrested for the attempted Christmas Day bombing has said he was given the bomb by al-Qaeda operatives in Yemen. A meeting arranged at the end of the month to discuss assistance for Yemen has been downgraded to a two hour session but Mr Brown insisted the international community was still committed to tackling the root causes of extremism in Yemen and UK. He added that by the end of this year, the UK would have given £100m to Yemen since 2007 to support political, social and economic reforms. The prime minister added that UK aviation officials were currently in Yemen to discuss improved aviation security in the country and he hoped flights could be resumed as soon as possible.

Women have you not seen the new inventions?? Now they use material that allows you to see out clearly, might fine vision like tinted windows but people cannot see you. I like them; Cara it is a walking violation only if you already had two left feet, niqab won't help with your walking then

Sayid, you have to be willing to use your own mind and words, rather than trying to get them to follow links and find the same answers you did. THAT never works. If an atheist give me a link, I read it but with a mindset of trying to find faults and pick holes in the content. I certainly don’t read it so that I am enlightened, therefore I’m more likely not to gain anything from it.

Faheema you are nuts, You are the only person I know who goes to work when they have an excuse NOT to go to work, THEN complains of work or being bored at work!! :rolleyes: If I finish early I'll come by and we can watch Abdi Habey; Did not get a chance last night.

Since you posted this, you have to be willing for them to give YOU dacwan as well Sayid. So get ready, it is going to be a looooooong thread if you are serious. :cool:

Ngonge, That cracked me up!! I know a ban will never work in practical terms without lawsuits but semi bans: For example in universities, schools, hospitals will probably become more common. For example at the hospital I work at, the guidelines are: - Nothing hanging off or lose at the arms - Not dragging on the floor - If wearing a dress or skirt; It must be wide, lose fitting and not restricting your steps or hazard - No open toes or sandals. Which is fine, unless you are a niqabi.

^^I'm serious, what are you LoLing about @ CL. Ngonge chews from time to time.

Ngonge Remember you wanted to be on TV? Shall I send a referral your way? Under the Skin of khat chewers

Ngonge you must make yourself useful and start writing again. This thread use to help me fill all those hrs when everyone is asleep.

Faheema did you go to work?? I woke up with a headache and so tired. Tonight I am going to bed at 8pm inshallah.

^^^Not true, it is not one of the signs of the day of judgement. Miis waxa kasta wa laiska yidhad to creat fear. Dajiye: I don't think you should speak about Cara like that; she will cut off your toes and feed you to them. Canjeex: I'm still waiting for the day you say something worth reading/responding to :rolleyes:

^^^No, the person added their own damn picture. They told me to watch this Xalimo trying to break in to film with Prad Pitt.

Oh no, not the China Man in Burco.

Maskeen subxanallah

Hello Lazy; This is not going no where because: 1) You have never interacted with Burka wearing women 2) You refuse to try their lifestyle for a while (walk a mile in their shoes as it wore) 3) You think they are all forced, lashed by their partners or brothers/ father 4) You question their intentions (despite the fact you can never know someone’s intention) 5) You feel they are too oppressed to speak up for themselves and even when asked directly, they will lie out of fear 6) You think the Burka is on the same level as drink driving and therefore it is for their benefit to ban it, since they don’t really want to wear it anyway. All I can say if you have created a imaginary world in your mind, where all Burka wearing women are forced or don’t know any better or lack the free will. You refuse to carry any research out in this area, instead your evidence is based on what YOU think, or the limits of your mind, that you cannot imagin for the life of you why any women will otherwise wear such garment. 1) I have and do interact with Burka wearing women, they are in my family and I went to Islamic school for 10yrs (In the UK) so many of my childhood friends wear a Niqab or Burka. 2) I go out with them as I am, we went to university together and few of them have established themselves in careers such as primary school teaching, working for external labs and data analysis. 3) They are not forced or lashed, some of them don’t even have male relatives here. 4) You have no way of knowing their intentions 5) They have a bigger mouth than you because they spend more time fighting for things they want to do because of people like you. They work that much harder than me and you because they have to proof themselves. They won’t get anywhere by being Burka wearing and timid at the same time. 6) As Burka and Drinking driving, although this obviously too ridiculous and does not need me to defend or even comment on, I will give you another example; High heels Every girl in the west has a pair, even if she never wears it, just in case. I could make the same argument as you did above for their ban, and my claim will have more credibility, medical research to back it up and few cases too. So let’s ban it because according to recent research (you can find it in many sources as it was widely published) 1) A third of women suffer permanent problems as a result of their prolonged wearing of 'killer heels', ranging from hammer toes and bunions to irreversible damage to leg tendons. 2) High heels make you raise your heel and as soon as you do that your centre of gravity is pushed forward. What happens then is you bend your lower back to compensate for this and that changes the position of your spine, putting pressure on nerves in the back. 3) This can cause sciatica, a painful condition where nerves become trapped, triggering pain and numbness as far down as the feet. Another common problem is that the Achilles tendon - which runs up the back of the leg from the heel - becomes permanently damaged. 4) Since heels shift your centre of gravity, if attacked, from behind or up front, you have more chance of losing your balance. In addition running away is difficult as you would not get far. 5) There are also basic researches about kidney problems etc, but it is not yet proven, just a small correlation. 6) As tax payers, when they seek treatment (long term, for long term problems) this puts a strain on the NHS, which we pay for (so yes its affects us) Considering the first 3 facts, and that variety of conditions from corns and calluses to hammertoes, arthritis, chronic knee pain, sprained ankles and back problems are caused by high heels, should heels be banned, or at least regulated so that women do not wear more than 2inches thick heels? Source if you to read more: Healthlink & British medical journal. P.s. You seem to have missed my early point; In islam everything is considered lawful, unless it is made unlawful If you want to make the Burka unlawful you will have to do better than these poor women are beaten in the west and need me to advocate on their behalf. Secondly you also seem to keep ignoring me when I tell you that the Burka is just someone who in their view is going the extra mile. Finally please answer this sincerely: Can you honestly say that if they wear it for religious reasons (i.e. they sincerely believe that Allah will reward them for going the extra mile and it takes them closer to Allah) that Allah will NOT accept it from them?? Remember in Islam, the precondition of any action is intention. You say Burka is NOT Islam: I keep saying to you that It is Islam if the individual thinks it takes them closer to Allah, it is Islam because it fulfils the basic 7conditions of Hijab. You agreed with me that it fulfill the characteristics of Hijab, but goes beyond and above what it is needed; Fine so be it, but since there are no laws against doing extra curriculum activities to get closer to your lord, then they are free to wear Burka, Niqab, three hijabs and gloves too. Tomorrow, today and the day after till I die I will tell you the same thing; You are going to convince anyone because you seem to think you speak for people you are so far from both physically and in ideology. Furthermore you are willing to experiment with their life, just because you seem think you know their life better than them. If you really want to see things from the other side, follow the basic line of: 1) Neutralize your position, put your ego aside 2) Consider the evidence from both sides 3) Segregate the position of those who are forced and those who make the choice on their own 4) Consider them as human beings who are intelligent and able to make their own decisions 5) Look at the options and support services they have in the west to help victims 6) Accept that there are people who out of their own decision wear the Burka/ niqab 7) Decide if you respect their position or you want to impose your own way. Follow step 1-7, waxab yaan la istaalin, at the end of it you would come to either one of: • There are some people who wear it out of choice and we’ll leave them to it • There are people who made that choice but really we know what is better for them and we’ll enforce it • These women are forced, so let’s help them break the shackles

^^Hey, what is wrong with Somali food. I'm starting to eat white washed Somali food since friday. I'm sick of it already. I need a cook book, maybe west African food or something.

^^^Looool your nuts lady, Adam never had any complaints about me. Now stop trying to create problems for us, you know absences makes the heart (I sometimes have one too) girly

Ailamos,I got it as a gift from a friend, I never finished reading it because someone took it off to read and never gave it back. From what I read, (I've not read his predictions or how these laws could be used currently); there were laws and processes in there that even I did not know. He also based his whole book on the area his wife's family lived, so I'm not sure if all the rules and processes are the same across the country. Reminds me to start asking for my books back.

@ North: I'm almost upset by that; I don't care who owes the damn thing so long as they make the same chocolates. Something tells me they are going to out source the production to india and we are going to get funny tasting chocolates. Salams people

Originally posted by LayZie G.: Ibti, good evening to you sister. "two side of the same coin" card is the only one you have left to play, which really doesn't surprise me sister but play I say. You do not object to my call for 'banning' of this said garment because it demeans women's worth but that the call to banishment is the very thing you object to. Nevermind that the said garment diminishes the worth of the woman in the social sphere or that it prevents her from taking on daily activities, such as juggling children and household chores. Unable to drive her children to school because she can't drive with the said garment while behind the wheel. She may not compete in a the corporate latter for her dream job because of discrimination. Ordinarily, it is nearly impossible to walk the same way as she would if she didn't have the extra weight, never mind that she has a child on her hips and grocery bag on the other side and holding on to the burka in fear of falling. Nevermind that she can not protect herself from a would be attacker in the middle of the night beacuse she can't see who is attacking her from behind nor can she identity her assailant from a police line up before the said garment prevents her, and so on and so on. Instead of calling for its banishment or even making an argument against banishment, you are stuck with "no one can tell me what to do", you would rather that women go on believing that it is a choice they personally made when infact thats further from the truth. Ibti believe that it is not a religious obligation for her to wear one, as say someone who just limits herself to the head cover. Instead of addressing the grievances that arise from horrific scene of a woman juggling Burka on the one hand and her weight on the other among other things, you insist that its a choice and no one should have the right to look after her interest, much less a government authority. If thats the case, why should we applaud the government authority for coming with legislation of banning drinking while driving if we won't listen to what they dictate to us citizens? Because, they know that someone who drives while under the influence of alcohol is danger to self and others and that person is not safe to drive in fear of crashing and causing an accident that would not only be harmful to him/herself but to others, thereby, outlawing drinking while driving but if we said, the heck with the government, we won't allow them to dictate what we should and shouldnt do, isn't it the same thing observing a garment and making it as a religious observance, when in fact it is neither an obligation nor a requirement for a Muslimah to wear it and instead, opt for personal choice? If every law that bans something is opposed, we wouldn't be civilized, would we now? Ladies, lets take emotion out of the equation, I know you are dying to agree with me, you just can't stand being told what to do and thats where all of your objections to this ban lies, ee admit it already and lets get a move on. Loool @ LAzy. Sister I would love to agree with you but the fact you think so little of these women really bothers me, the fact that you would put them on the same capcity as someone under the influence is beyond me walahi. I cannot decide if you are serious or just pulling my leg. Burka wearing women in the west are not as demented, stup*id or ignorant. The fact that you think a garment can automatically make someone sub-human is mind blogging. When I Ibtisam wear a Burka and a niqab do I suddenly become stu*pid and unable to make my own decisions. Your comments remind of ignorant folks who are surprise I speak English without an accent or that I have education or that I hold a position of authority. Often when I meet my patient, after having spoken to them on the phone or e-mail, the first comment they say to me is “Oh you are not at all as I imagined” is it because your own bias views won’t let you see the individual behind the garment? Have we advance so much that we associate intelligence with what they wear. As for attackers and carrying stuff, again I already mentioned it is perfectly practical, I still advise you try it for a day. I have worn it, carried my shopping, taken tube, bus and taxi. I will try to carry a child next time too. But in case I don’t buy your concern for their well being- particularly as it centres on you knowing better than them what is suitable for their practical life. A Burka wearing sister would not need to be walking about in the middle of night in hostile situation. Even I take precautions to get from A2B at night let alone a Burka wearing sister. Lastly sis, you are not smarter than this sisters who have made a different choice to you, nor are you more enlighten, nor do you know what is suitable or safe for them in their own individual life. Only they as individuals can make that decision. Now I understand if you bang you feet and make noise about women in Somalia or Taliban or any other country were they are forced to wear certain things, and I will support you. But I won’t agree or support you in “we know better” and will tell you how to dress. Or buy into, their dress sense is so dangerous for their safety like alcohol and must be banned. How can you compare it to drink driving :eek: Do you know how many deaths drink driving is responsible for in the west? I have yet to see a case where Burka was responsible for someones death in the west? :confused: No Sir, imam marasey siiadsu, so waxab ha istalin. I won't agree with you even if the cows come home unless you gave me a different reason to your objection. Yala sis, dig up another reason.

I know it should be called PAkistani school. They have yet to show a Muslim from any other culture. :rolleyes: CL Shame on you!! Watching planets of the Apes always makes me think of Johnny B :confused:

^^Adam has taken a Holiday from SOL for a while. If I remember correctly he was fighting with the Ethiopians in Wikipedia as they keep editing our stuff. :mad: Damn this thread reminds me how much I miss my cyber husband, come back safely dear.