I don't believe in tactical reason, here you are making concessions that are not yours to make! But as you were, wa bila cakku ya haween> opening doors you cannot close there!. I will leave you to it in any case, although I would always say Speak the truth and shame the devil.

A&T: "militant faction within Islam" is an oxymoron. Aliamos few weeks away from SOL, seems like I've missed a lot. :confused: Maxa Dahacey? what did Johnny do? BTW as for lack of criticism from the Muslim world (there is no such unit first) Secondly condemning unIslamic acts will be a really tall tasks and a loooooooooong. Muslims as individuals can and do condemn murder, rape, killing etc but I doubt there will ever be a statement each time a "Muslim" does another crime. I certainly don't expect people living in the west to apologies for crimes committed by the governments let alone western individuals. Is it not enough that Islam condemns such crimes and has done so for centuries. The quran explicitly condemns this practice, as Muslims out statement is the Quran.

^^No, but you can expect him not to rely on the Quran as evidence, or attempt to do his own tasfeer, as we know he has yet to study it. In any case You are claiming the high ground here, you want a debate, so cover your basic point of entry. The aim of the discussion is not to bang your heads together, I assume you want to try and benefit them, so you need to put in the effort, otherwise you are not doing your job as a daaci. I guess if the aim is to just argue for the sake of it, then it makes sense that neither of you do your reading and then we can just see who shouts the loudest.

It is snowing again!!! Heavy too. Hey Val and chubacka and Serenity.

Peter Taylor normally is a well balanced guy. Will remember to watch it inshallah and see what he brings.

^^Just because it has happened, does not make it a valid mode of discussion. If you cannot be bothered to read the book, then there is no reason why anyone should respond to what you posted, unless Hamza is going to appear and defend or counter argue, you cannot do it on his behalf because you have not read the book. since you don't want to read the book I can only assume you did not seriously want to engage them (those who do not agree with you) instead you just wanted a hit a run- something that I expect of Johnny.

Just like I do not feel responsible for everything a black person or a Somali person does, I do not feel responsible or feel the need to apologies for everything that someone with a Muslim name does. I think Islam could do a lot for societies that practices such horrendous, as Islam outlawed these barbaric practices in the Arabian peninsula when Islam arrived (They use to bury their daughters alive) Religion is never judged by those who follow it because we know that humans have twisted it and abused the masses using religion in history (all religions not just Islam). The Sikh and Hhindu communities in the UK have centers and help groups to tackle honor killings and family disputes that lead to such circumstances. I think the Turkish/ Kurdish and Pakistan communities need similar initiatives to stomp out these traditions and cultural horrors. P.s. I feel like I missed the SOL war of the year and everyone has picked the line not to cross.

North, you must read the book first, otherwise it is as pointless as Johnny quoting me something from the Quran which I know he does not understand nor can comment on, all he would be left with is quoting me what another said, which is never as stong as what and how you can say something. Don't be lazy, read the damn book, it is not that long. Cicero: when you manage to post without mocking Islam, Muslims and their book can people discuss with you anything, till then it is best people ignore you all together. It is a shame with all your so called education and libration, someone could not teach you basic manners and discussing an issue without emotional crying and chewing tour nails. Acudubililahmina shidan rajiim. P.s. they also forgot to tell you that we are called Muslims not Mohammadans.

SalamAlikum everyone

Originally posted by LayZie G.: First thing is first, thank you for the kind words. Samir iyo aamiin allah naga siiyo. Inta dhimatay allah u naxariisto, inta noolna allah u gargaaro, aamiin. Ameen LOL@ quote: Lets say I answered those questions you asked FOR myself and at the end of it I decided that as a free bird, who is educated (in Islam and world subjects) and independent (both financially and otherwise) would start wearing the Burka and the niqab full time here in London. Then WHAT? All of your questions have been answered, do I now have your support, would you defend my conscious decision that I made to wear it as a religions garment because I believe it brings me closer to my lord and I am doing a pleasing act with the right intentions. Furthermore would you respect my choice and defend it for what it is i.e. a person of sound mind making a different choice for religious reasons or even otherwise. Well would you? Ibti, no 'buts' or 'ifs' or 'lets just say'. First you must ask yourself the tough questions and ask your subjects these very same questions.(answering a question with a question will not work) Answer the question dear sis, I just said to you that I have asked myself those questions and made a decision, so what is yours, maxaad la mermersan :confused: Or are you too polite to say that you think I am also forced, abused, ignorant or otherwise unfit to make such choice? Matter of fact, demand that they ask themselves the tough questions. (you have 30 strong women). Other than that, I don't do hypothetical, I deal with the 'now'.(we dont have much to discuss here if you do not want to challenge yourself or your subjects) This whole discussion is hypothetical dear, your whole argument is based on your perception and your assumed position in the face of certain conditions (which are again assumed on your part) so you do, do hypothetical, have been for a long time. You say 'you come from a research background', and I recognized it early on to be the simple truth, which is why I told you numerous times why I think you are the best person to tackle this issue with your 30 women but you must first challenge yourself before you challenge your subjects. Besides, you did not do your actual thesis on the burka and its impact on Muslim women, nor did you share any scholarly material thats upto date or provide statistical studies , instead, you shared your views, which you based on your interactions with the said women in your life as well as using the verses from the Qur'an to strengthen the argument that covering up could mean for some as more than a clothing(which was not a strong argument at all) and it could potentially mean for some that this simple act or the representation of it brings them closer to God, which is why they decided to follow this path in the first place.(not proven at all ) I’m glad you have finally grasp 10% of what I’ve been saying for weeks, hopefully you will catch the other 90% another time when you are not busy being defensive. I am not proposing a ban or a compulsion on all to wear, therefore I DO NOT NEED to present any research to indicate that people are free to make their own decisions!!! YOU on the other hand have made a number of assumptions based on WHY or HOW they have made their decisions, based on YOUR OWN assumptions (even if you did your own research it would be a start, but haada it is all in your mind) Somehow you expect to artificially induce an agreement from me based on WHAT your perceptions are. :confused: So I don’t need to proof that they are abused or not abused, drugged or dragged, ****** or genius, nor do I need to claim that a new revelation came down saying take this evidence to Lazy G, all I am saying is that burqa wearing women are normal human beings who are intelligent enough to make their own life choices without interference from deluded well meaning individuals who feel sorry for them or think of them are subjected poor sub human beings who need to be librated, nor do they need a bunch of hot headed lunatics to play God and beat them for wearing a different hijab. I told you that it wasn't as black and white as you make it ought to be and that there is potential here and that you needed to explore it. You just want to limit your understanding of the subject and accept any answer that agrees with "IBTI's position". No, disagree all you want, but disagree based on principles or solid reasons, don’t disagree for the sake of it. Cara, Naden, Sherben and Aliamos agree with me on a complete different wave length compared to why Thierry or Blessed will agree with me, North would probably agree with me first and foremost just to be on opposite end as you, nevertheless the point is, all these individuals agree with me in principle, but we differ widely after the initial agreement that it is an individual decision and these women are capable of making such decision. Cara and Naden might object from a fashion or healthy & safety perspective, others bring up integration and social barriers etc. BUT you are just rigid and refuse to accept that some can and do freely wear it because THEY want to, believe in it and love it without a beating male relative or brainwashing. You did not question the reasons nor do you question yourself as to why you accept a simple answer as, I do it as a sign of religious observance, etc. Yad yad ya, I have answered this before dear sis, the fact that you ignore my answers does not mean I have repeat myself like a broken record. My opinion and respect for this garment will not change because you keep beating the same old battered drums. I questioned myself, answered those questions and still grace the pavements in full gear when I feel to with the hope that Allah may reward me for that day that I have gone the extra mile. I have to be honest Ibti, not only do you come across as being irritant with the course this subject has taken but its almost as thought you want to just take people's words as truth and dismiss the opposition by using Allah as leverage. Subxanallah at using allah, walciyadu bilaah. I’m irritated because of your lack respect and perception of these women. I’m irritated that you as someone who champions women’s rights etc at the same time are trying to dictate to other women because they offend your emotions and sensibilities with their choices. Most of all I’m irritated that you as a Muslim have posted a nun you much admire and I KNOW you would defend her right to dress such way unpressured and under no strain picked such life style based on she was pleasing her lord (both in action and dress), yet you cannot extend the same curtsy to Muslim Burqa wearing sister. Remember, human beings are biased. You are biased, I'm biased, the said women are biased, thats why its our job to find out why people say what they say, how they say it and what role does outside influence play on their decision making but failure to grasp this simple fact will lead us and this subject a place where we can not turn back time. agree but this discussion was and is not about the process people take to come to a decision, it is at a basic level of Can they make such a decision, and if they do, should we hinder them, help them or leave them to it. Also I was sent to this earth as an investigator to look into the hearts of people (you or them) each has their own challenges to overcome and responsibilities to fulfill both to their lord and to other humans. I can only call a spade, a spade. You on the other hand emotional pick topics and then try to build a case without pillars (I say this because I have yet to see you questioning why women wear this that or the other, or why men do this here and there;) instead I see you victimizing burqa wearing women and constantly mocking them on this forum, because somehow you concluded that you are better than them, and they deserve less respect than everyone else. As an admire and an occasional wearer, it is not rocket science why I would be irritated and annoyed that you don’t even have a single solid foundation for you ignorant assumptions, and instead demand that THEY proof to you or society that they are not abused or brainwashed or beaten; maybe I’ll make them a little card to carry around, stamped and signed by at least 10 people a day, verifying that indeed she made this decision unaided. Even then I’m sure you will find a reason to object. tick tock, tick tock, tick tock.... Indeed time is precious, so lets not waste each others time dear, we really don’t have much to discuss if you stand with you back against the wall demanding a verse legislating women must wear Burka and a certificate that she who does, wears it is because she wants to, and she wears it for God, not for a man. Walahi your whole attitude reminds of people I occasionally meet who speak to me really slowly, loudly and with lots of sign language because they assume I do not speak English.

Aliamos: The Kurdish take their culture and particularly marriage very seriously. It has nothing to do with Islam. Even here they kill their daughters who marry or date people they don't approve of.

It will be a long thread, there are so many. Why maxaad kuu faali?

To cut a Long story/thread short; Answer this first Lets say I answered those questions you asked FOR myself and at the end of it I decided that as a free bird, who is educated (in Islam and world subjects) and independent (both financially and otherwise) would start wearing the Burka and the niqab full time here in London. Then WHAT? All of your questions have been answered, do I now have your support, would you defend my conscious decision that I made to wear it as a religions garment because I believe it brings me closer to my lord and I am doing a pleasing act with the right intentions. Furthermore would you respect my choice and defend it for what it is i.e. a person of sound mind making a different choice for religious reasons or even otherwise. Well would you? Then progressor in which ever direction it takes you.

Salam Firstly I’m sorry about the tacsi, may allah give you sabar and forgiveness for the person who passed away. Sorry for your loss. First thing is first, I don't believe that I intentionally ignored any of your questions. I believe I have answered all of your questions with the exception of "why do you object to women making choices for themselves". (I do recall giving you a reason why I did not want you to lose sight of the discussion by focusing on other distractions, i.e choices, which is why I did not give you an answer at the time) I don’t think you intentionally ignore them either I think you have a habit of either skim reading, or you read the first few lines and just start typing a response focused on that, in the process of hammering that home you forgot to pick up on the other points. I tried to fix that by numbering my points, but that did not improve the situation either. I had a very good reason why I did not want to address this particular side of the debate, which is why I accused you of bringing distractions to our debate by making this about personal choice, when in fact, the question has always been and is still is about whether Islam prescribes the Burka. But by you making the discussion about why I object to it, instead of proving the authenticity of the Burka, as the Burka was on trial, you fell right into Cara's trap. You allowed yourself to be overwhelmed by her distractions and to make this about women's choices, when in fact that was and is still is further from the truth. At the time, I made the choice to stay on course for as long as I possibly could by not falling for that line of questioning you were hammering me with but it seems to me that so far, you just can't let this go, so tonight I decided to entertain you for the sake of entertainment. Well done to you, but way before Cara showed up, in page3 (where I posted the pictures) You would notice that I told you where I stood and I closed the chapter on it. I still stand by it. I answered your question with regards to the how the Burka fits into Islam and I posted pictures to support it (that it is part of Islam because it satisfies the criteria of a hijab) and how people act within those limits in entirely up to them. It is one of the things you keep missing and since page3 I’ve repeated it several times. The BURKA is part of Islam because it is a legitimate way of fulfilling the hijab criteria which we agreed on in page 1-3. I went on to tell you that for some people it is doing that extra bit more to please Allah and we have no place in commenting on it. I also told you that other people wear it for whatever reason and it is not for us to comment on it. Same way I cannot comment on someone’s prayer. Now I am having to say it again, because yet again you insist that we have not addressed this. Ready or not, here it comes: We established the religious argument and that there is none to be had at this time when it comes to the Burka, correct? NOT CORRECT, please see above and any of my above posts for that matter. Otherwise I am going to just start cope and past my previous answers. So, in your view, what is left? Choice? By whom? Women? How are the said women characterized? Religion is a person thing, it is always discussed as a choice made by an individual. Two definitions arise from the above questions. One is that, we first need to define what is it that we mean when we discuss a choice one makes. At the same time, we need to categorize the said women in order to understand the choices she makes and how it affects her and her community and whether the old cliche of subordinate role is the key to understanding her decisions, which more than likely allowed her to tune out reason, instead takes up the role of the dependent women, who relies on heresy masquerading as free, independent thinking, which leads to such choices as what the woman can or can not wear, how and when she can wear the garment and most important, how she ought to observe her God, etc , etc. I don’t really do group definitions, far too wide, but lets run with this. First thing is first, what does it mean when we say one has to make a choice? It is a thought process, which the person decides about A or B , assuming that there is more than one choice to be had, thereby, choosing according to instinct/reason/ability to reach a decision after much deliberation, etc etc. (atleast thats how I define as someone making the choice between option A, B, or there could be C, D but it all comes down to making a choice) An adult person, normal, not mental or sick person. What are the choices that are presented to her? Who is presenting these choices and how does this said woman deliberate? Is she alone or with a male figure? Does she rely on popular opinion? All important questions to be had if we are to have an honest debate about the said choice, correct? Not in reality, highly in practical to debate about the circumstances that lead to every choice. But carry on. The assumption here is that she is normal, not sick, not mental and not abused or forced (because that would not then be a choice) Marka kale, who is this woman? A free bird, independent woman or is she the submissive, the old cliche of society who still clings to the same old, tired stereotypes of what a woman ought to represent in the eyes of her male master? As I said this is why group definitions are far too wide and problematic. Either way and who ever she is her providing SHE made a choice between wearing and not wearing or wearing a specific type, her choice is valid. She could be old fashion or otherwise. We have to really be careful when we start discussing Burka and choice in the same sentence, sometimes, its best to be careful about what you wish for because you just might regret it later. Burka is not a controlled drug nor is it some sort of killer bug, is she changes her mind, she can just take it off. It is not a life long sentence, often depending on level of Iman we fluctuate between our extra actions; whether they maybe burka wearing, sunnah fast or sunna prayers. Now, I don't mean to overwhelm you here with endless questions but these are all valid questions and they deserve an honest answer. Your question does not matter the least HERE is showing why you, aside from your obvious dislike for the Burka would go out of your way to condone it or advocate for a ban. Lets say I answered those questions you asked FOR myself and at the end of it I decided that as a free bird, who is educated (in Islam and world subjects) and independent (both financially and otherwise) would start wearing the Burka and the niqab full time here in London. Then WHAT? All of your questions have been answered, do I now have your support, would you defend my conscious decision that I made to wear it as a religions garment because I believe it brings me closer to my lord and I am doing a pleasing act with the right intentions. Furthermore would you respect my choice and defend it for what it is i.e. a person of sound mind making a different choice for religious reasons or even otherwise. Well would you? If your answer is yes, then we are done with this issue because bottom line is that providing I am not force and I have the capabilities to make a choice for reasons known to me then it is fine and Okay. If you are answer is NO, then still we are done with this issue because dear sis it means that putting aside the issue or force, putting aside the issue of education and stereotypes of women who generally wear this and putting aside the so called abuse, your concern is not rooted in these but rather another objection which you have failed to highlight, which is that YOU don’t like, YOU don’t approve, YOU want to dictate to them the limits in religion and practice- WHY would be an interesting question at this point. But nevertheless it is clear at this junction that if your answer is No, we are never gone come to common grounds so let quite wasting our time and energy. After 6 pages of circling around the issue of Burka, I'm more than convinced that you do not have a shred of evidence that supports your position about choice or what such choices entail or better yet, who is making the decisions? Instead, you accuse me of allowing my personal views to cloud my judgment and that I should give more credit to these women for being brave souls and choosing to wear the Burka in the west of all places but what all of that tells me is that you just dont like my objection to the Burka because you believe that my argument against the darn thing is valid and therefore you dont want to admit that I'm right nor do you want to admit that you do not present a counter- argument but instead, you insist on bringing other factors into the discussion about woman's prerogative etc in order to avoid asking yourself the tough questions. I told you long ago I don’t argue for Right or Wrong, because outside of what Islam says is RIGHT or WRONG (i.e. the grey areas) are always open to debate and interpretation, and I happy to entertain, accept or even adopt anything which Islamicly valid and authentic. Your argument is on the opposite spectrum, so the chance of me ever accepting it is zero. As for tough questions, walalo as a hijabi, I’ve been there done that, did my research, looked for a short cut or way out, tried the rebel mode, made my piece and decision. Alhumdulilah questioning and reasoning and digging for answers is why I am who I am and made the choices I made. You think playing dress up with an atheist/christian is research? You think 30+ of your close friends and family is real stats? (my personal views are much more convincing than the 30 or so women who you insist represent the majority of Muslim women) your personal views ON Burka is more convincing then the testimonies of 30 Burka wearing women! Haha. Why? Because you think they are all abused, uneducated, men-worshiping freaks. Really? I come from a research background, your personal opinion is just that, an outsider looking in. C'mon now, you know better, thats why I don't take these bits of personal moments you share serious because I know you are capable of much more. On some other issues, you can hold your own, even now, if it weren't for these distractions, I think you would have taken this argument to new heights but you can not allow Cara to trap you again. (forget it, she could care less if they wear a g-string. Cara will always believe that the choice should always be left to the woman because she thinks all women are alike) you are obsessed with Cara, not me, and she does not think all women are alike, but I’ll let her defend her point. As for new heights, unless you are waiting for me to claim that I have received a revelation, this is the short and long of this issue. Partly because it is really not as bigger deal as you think it is people cover, some don’t, some do it for culture others do it for religion, others just follow the crowd, but what does it matter, it impacts them as individuals until SHE (the women) tells me otherwise. On page 3 of this thread, Ailamos said the following to you: quote: ________________________________________ This is basically what I have been trying to say, that it's always the woman's choice, not the male authority's, she has the sole responsibility to read and interpret and not succumb to someone else's interpretation. ________________________________________ My question to you is, do you agree that all women are on equal footing when it comes to making decisions on their own? Do you think all women are capable of making decisions? providing they are not mad, mental, sick abused or to young, yes I do, they are all capable of making decisions that applicable to THEIR life/ environment. Whether they are allowed to or not is a different story and a different issue, but capable certainly each women is capable. I'm sure you agree that the free birds are more than capable of making decisions that concern their lives but what of the submissive ones? Are we to believe that these clingy women have developed and embraced modernity, even after the feminist waves? I don’t know about these so called clingy submissive ones, but I did not need feminist movement to liberate me, Allah already gave me my rights, I just had to learn to read. I could not give too hoots about modernity either (if by that you mean the period of “Enlightenment”) if you mean up to date, I still don’t care. I follow a scripture, whether parts of it are classed as archaic or not suitable for modern society does not concern me. So submissive ones providing they are Muslims and know their position could make their own decisions about life. Do you think these prudes are in fact appreciative of the struggles that our women hero took on behalf of all women? See above, I don’t count myself as a feminist. I’m quite neutral about them and I don’t believe they made any scarifies for me. Do you honestly believe that because someone resides in the west, that they are more likely to have independent thoughts, than say, someone in Jakarta? thoughts without action are just thoughts, someone in the west has the space to grow and make wider choices without limits or pressure from opposing society. I can walk on my head or tie a bin bag in one leg and a bucket on the other and no one will blink here. If I try that in Hargisa they’d probably put me in a mental hospital or try to beat the Jinn out of me. One thing is clear, which is that the hopeless souls, however many that exist hate to be labeled as such or boxed into a corner , instead, they take comfort in being dominated, because because, get this, wait for it, they find peace and security, oh and the shocker of it all, its a personal choice.(but wait for it, thats only after an alternative or lack of understanding of the choices is presented) In other words, these hopeless souls reject modernity in all its forms because of the fear of the unknown. Hopeless souls, I can’t get passed that. Besides fearing the unknown, they resist change but it does not mean they oppose progress, especially if it has their best interest but this search, this process of self-discovery is the very same thing that they are told is problematic and if you dont believe me, says the male-master, just look no further, see what it did to the free-birds as 'feminists', 'men eaters', 'westernized', 'lack faith and have no respect for traditional values', is that what you want to discover? You want to be a free-bird? Throw the kitchen sink my way sis, I’m not a traditional or cultural person, but what ever ideas someone wants to discovery, follow or promote is entirely up to them. By the same token, assuming that people who have taken a different path have not gone through a similar process of self discovery is just blind ignorance and self absorbent. PS: sorry for the delay, tacsi baa i gashay Once again my sincere condolences.

OzWaxad ku tidi afarahayaka ha so geelin, and waad ku qiliisey and you question his intention for doing so. In fact adigu la qabeso the attention this thread has gotten because you forced him to defend his position, intention and reason. Aliamos as Muslims are guests in the west we cannot impose our laws into their society, but nevertheless from a Islamic prespective there is a lot wrong with it.

Originally posted by sheherazade: oh no Faheema is there a cold blast due back question mark times 5. I have tried all kinds. The symbol on the key is not what shows up. You have to ask the guy that works here, point at what you want and he pushes something else. OMG I found the comma, it is a semi-colon. If he is sick or dies business will drop sharply. I said why dont you get the keyboard to show on screen what you press soft, untimidating, secretly irritated queston mark. He said he would let the owner know. ie nothing will change. Sheh could only be in an Arab or Asian country with that kind of response!!! LOOOl HAHAHa Big wave @ Sheh hey girl, send me the numbers if you want and I will pretend to be you and abuse them. Hi all.

Oz, I did and it still did not come up. I don't know what you expected from me, and really it matters not. Bottom line is you are being a bully haada to someone maratii iino aha. You can afford to wax uu sheeg if you differ with so much, but instead you are being very rude. You are also forgetting he come from a different background to you and does not view gays the same way you do. Nevertheless thread or no thread, your opinion is neither here nor there, this lifestyle is out there in the Somali community both in the west and back home. Nor does this thread qualify as promoting it. You need to separate your emotions from reasoning. It is very easy to say I object to this life style, my religion does not allow it and I really hate it, but hey it is out there. The problem maybe is that you feel responsible for the actions for every Somali, so when it is good we celebrate together and when it is bad, it is shame for all of us. Well that is not true, we are no longer a society, we are all individuals and at the end of the day each of us will appear alone to answer for our life actions. Why then do you busy yourself with stuff that you have no control over and you cannot change? Dislike it as much as you want and hate it too, but keep it moving. I don’t have to apologies for gay Somalis, or Christian or Atheist Somalis, or warlord Somalis, thieves, murders, rapist (oh yes we have all of these too) (and yes Johnny B, I have put Christian/ atheist along with thieves, rapist and murders)

I don't know why everyone is biting Sherban's head off :rolleyes: What the hell is wrong with you all. OZ for your information sherban's thread does not come up when you search somali gay. Instead billion other societies and promotional, support groups and personal blogs pop up, so take it easy. FYI there has been threads about Somali gays on SOL before started by other Somalis, so just because this poster happens to be none-Somali you should not feel the need to get defensive. :cool: In saying that, I don't see these people or the choices in life as an issue- they will answer to their lord like all other sinners.

1) Johnny just because a book sold many copies or it caused a reaction; it does not necessarily make it a good book, 2) I have read it, from cover to cover and concluded that he makes no worthy argument as such. As I said I found that he at least followed through his argument in the blind watchmaker (even though even in that book, he kept repeating himself 500 times). In any case what is you point? I also read the Satanic Verses, which was also badly written, ridiculous attempt by a man. It also sold however many copies and he won an award for it. It still does not make it a good book. If selling so many copies makes something good, then I have a few examples you would not agree with; such as his book leading to a 120% increase in the sales of the Bible and religious related material in its first few weeks according to Amazon. 3) In case, he talks about God as representing or being a metaphor for nature or the world. This definition of God is not really compatible with Islam. I wonder why he did not take an overview whole approach instead of breaking it down. 4) Johnny IF you read the book, you would also realise that he DOES NOT claim to disprove God with absolute certainty as you are trying to push, he just thinks that there maybe simpler alternatives. Maybe you need to read the damn book- it is after all your bible. 5) He only deals with the issue of God in few chapters, half through the book he has already moved on to discussing how a world without God will still be this or that or moral. A few chapters and he expects readers to conclude that he has dealt with the whole complex issue of an alternative to God. Really Johnny?? Who but an athesit would find this acceptable? :rolleyes: He aimed to show that atheism is the only tenable position, but it really was hit and miss and he forgot to aim well to start with!. His closing argument was based on the Burka as a metaphor for our lack of knowledge of the universe; an admission on its own don't you think? He shot himself in the foot by addressing his opponents as religious apologist, feeble-minded or corrupt, which basically is id*iotic since he is supposedly the enlighten one and they are the deluded bunch. It also means that his book is aimed at those who have already decided that they don’t believe. A cult of atheist as it were, and therefore adds nothing of substance to the regular believer or undecided/ neutral individual. Lastly there are many atheist who don’t necessarily follow science or any of his arguments, which shows that the replacement of religion does not need to be science. So if he missed the non-science atheist, and the religious followers of all faith, what exactly is this book, aside from a littler celebration of atheist feel good book? His key message, atheist should be publicly proud; fine be proud, but please do tell us of what? :confused: What is interesting is that he obsesses about who created “God”, but he fails to understand that for religious people this is where FAITH comes in. I can pick this book apart if I wanted to chapter by chapter, but it would be pointless. In any case this guy seems to think that higher education= increase of atheism. Just in case he was correct I dropped out of uni :rolleyes: Strangely enough I agree with some of his analysis of the Bible and its contradictory nature, I wonder why he did not select other religious text books from the world religions? He picked an easy target. I for one would have liked to see his attempt on the Quran. So agree with me that this is nothing more than a handbook for atheist and adds nothing to anyone else understanding of the world will ya. P.s. North you are going to give yourself a headache at this rate.

^^^Xaa ku haya?

Btw the way there is a big beard Muslim half Arab guy at your university who has been there for 6yrs. Every one says he is so. Plays basket ball with the brothers. Better watch yourself before you end up in Paddington. Well since you cannot discuss it, then do not make any allegations. I would never believe the M15 rubbish about extremist anyway. They think going to a couple of talks and praying 5 times a day is extreme.

Max, in your head maybe. What makes them extrem. You cannot make things up from thin air. We have yet to see a somali extremist form an organisation, nor do we have the somali version of Abu Hamaza. I don't know what "many" you think you saw or what you saw them do which makes them extremist. What I do know for a fact is this article is load of bullshid, along with the so call shike and community leader quoted. loool @ juxa!

^^^Malika I thought he has already started his shift dhee lol How you doing?

^^^No that is your list; Mine is different. :cool:

Why are you attacking the students? Before you join the bandwagon of the media propaganda; The said case/ individual was from the time of the Ethiopian invasion, close to when the Islam courts were being overthrown. Why it is being published as it is something that has happened recently, or the links between Somalis and al Qadea is just propaganda when they run out of things to publish. I’m just surprised you fell for it. Even worse, when are so called moderate shikes and somali communites going to notice that the media is really not their friend. :rolleyes: