*Sighs* you know you've given me naught else but disagree for the sake of it and without proving anything of any real substance to the equation. Like I said ambitious imagination at its best and though I am tempted to divulge further and get into a heated debate....wsell I truly don't have either the energy or care as for the genetic aspects of evolution? Natural selection can only take you as far microevolution but macro? *lifts a brow* But I shall leave you with this birds don't have teeth? Eh? Indeed then what do you call that? lacerations? I would suggest that anyone whose truly interested look but the evidence and research themselves instead of taking it on peoples word. Thats me done.

^- Dont ask for such things waa maqaariib. Speak only of goodness you never know it might be lay-latul qadr the night where all your dreams can come true. If only you ask for it. Raise your palms in the air with me and ask for gorgeous, clever little daughters and sons. Goblan indeed *tisk tisk*

^- LOL Salma- Depends upon SOl's definition of clean and I'll be honest...*comes close to whisper in her ear* I've never been on paltalk and don't even have a face book account. I'm not as sassy as I'd like to make myself out to be I just assumed the cimaamad and cabaayad brigade lifted their prospetive clothing through proper "cyber" talk -via xalaal means. Technially it wouldn't be a sin to jiggle about infront of ones webcam would it? *giggles* I kid...

^-Hmm, religion an absolute truth which we envolved into eh? Then I would ask precisely what the nature of truth is and whether its something which is evolving and adaptable. If so how can if ever trust its validty as one unique trait of the truth-its that its usuallly seen as being a constant unalterable force. GG-I didn't insinuate that you should apologise for anything and I was refering to your answers to Johnny the proof being in the quran part. Sure his angel analogy was rather amusing and lacking some but the idea that the quran provides truth? Well...does it really contain detailed descriptions of scientific descoveries way before its time or do we humans merely romantically read what we wish into the translations depending upon what progress we've made in the world? Does the Quran contain hidden messages we only see after accumulating knowledge or prior to this?*shrugs* Still... actually refering to a holy scripture in which someone doesn't accept to be valid rational document is rather well, benign. Hope you understanding what I meant if not? Then I shall drop the matter altogether. Ps Naden thanks for the heads up but I didn't see your review unfortunately and either way I was desperate to watch this film...and I've just come back from watching it...guess what? I LOVED IT! LOL I know yes it was racist, cheesy and not especially original but it came from SOUTH AFRICA? And it wasn't especially subtle with its references to its aparthied history. But it had human idiocy and I found it difficult not to form any compassionate feelings of sorrow with the "prawns" who just wanted to go back home. It was rather touching ending and I'm left thinking...will christopher come back? to help that poor selfish white africana? Who ended up finding the true essense of human compassion through the ironic transformation into the very creatures he was abusing? ...or perhaps I'm just a soft touch for old stories re-told? The nigerians thing was a bit over done..Still I was laughing with relish at the whole juju-alien eating thing. To further go OFFTOPIC There is one movie I am fairly foaming at the mouth to watch and thats Guy Richies Sherlock Holmes. Downy junior has excellent comic charm and I for one cannot wait! Jude law puts me off though...

Hehehe, sounds funny *goes off to watch a few clips*

LOL-Arab dating eh? I'd stay away from "muslim" dating if I were you. Too much sexual fustration resulting in cimaamad and cabaayad lifting on pal-talk for my liking. I'll stick to oggling guys on life support machines in hospitals thanks you very much. Plus they don't fight back and are easier to subdue.

Yes, and I shall...inshallah

^-Hmm, true it would be difficult if not a rather heated affair but surely if one makes a claim then they should go about either proving or disproving that claim to whomever is truly interested in the pursuit of knowledge? Regardless of their own personal beliefs. Should we go down the route of excluding the share of knowledge based upon a series of stringent criteria it would become a serious error in judgement. Having said that inorder for one to recieve any sort of information they must be capable of being susceptible to openly discussing said matter/matters with an open clear and relatively objective mind. In anycase, it matter not that an athiest doesn't believe in the essense of God in the first place...provide compelling evidence and all shall fall to their knees regardless of their prior dominant stances. The truth is a very difficult thing to hide-instinctually we know when we see it or feel it. Some merely require more info than others to "believe". Its within the open lines of communication where the most mesmerizing of human transitions of "faith" can be brought to fruition. Segregation of the "truth" is never a good idea.

Ps A.Z lol-You shall make very reer magaal father. Me? I'll talk to my kids, trust them, kick them and then send them scattering off on to the horizon. Theres only so much a parent can do except try your best and make du'cas constantly to help them stay on a clear path. LOL Peace..

LOL-giving your daughters full access to the local neighbourhood Somali boys wont make them more somali-but taking them back home every year to talk with those older then themselves will help them form a sense of cultural identity. I learnt more about "somaliness" talking to my grandmother and aunts and uncles then talking to kids of my own westerned influenced age. Then again each to their our own. My kids? Inshaallah Shall be jetted off to Somalia every year for months on end-volunteering where neccessary-at hospitals etc (let them see the poverty and give thanks)-cleaning and learning to heat girgiraha with duxul and dashaq together some laxoox and learn the basic forms of Somali compassion, generosity- etiqette and respect for elders. Simple...plus I'm thinking of making them help with the agricultural aspects and allow them to generally roam free around the buurahaa where I shall regale them with tales of their nomadic ancestry. So they grow up to be confident, intelligent and street wise well as well acedemically and practically sharp individuals. I shall raise obnoxious, cocky little brats with hearts of gold. Very complex kids-(LOL I can only hope) I shall in essense give my kids the trust and freedom I was given. Which is why I'm such a boring old woman..so much freedom? Nothing to rebel against, except the world ..Or the world in which I have created.

Sue- Ah...you make a good case but it all depends on the notion of freewill actually existing and judging by the fact that Allah knows and has written each of our destinys when we're in the womb I truly doubt we have much say in the matter. Allahs will and all that. If you say that we do have freewill and then go about stating that Allah simply "knows" and is not making me do certain things-despite writing that I shall prior to any decision making I can take...then how can I have freewill? I know, its because I am human and am therefore incapable of understanding that which is above my limited comprehension-that I can accept. However, if I set myself a basic limit such as two opposing statements of contradictory notions cannot lie together comfortably then it keeps it simple (Ie Allahs fate and my "choice"). Thus I am left with the conclusion that I can only try my best-keep it simple and just listen to Allah telling me that I have freewill within the Quran when we all know deep down-we're all puppets simply dancing to our own fates. Can I deal with being insignificant? Yes I can but thats why I don't actually put much validity into the notion of freewill anyway. Then again...perhaps two contradictory notions each-facing backwards can jam together into a great mesh of "reason" to which I, a human, am not yet if ever will be capable of understanding such twisted logic? Eh *shrugs* Too much thinking LOL- And I have diverted considerably from my orginal purpose of the topic In anycase- do I take it to mean that you personally would not risk it? which is fair enough I suppose. Not everyone has sociopathic/destruct ive tendencies. *Waves to mortal combat* Long time no see..glad to see your well

Nadan- Aaah! *points a finger in the air* now I understand your meaning... So what you and Johnny boy were saying is that if let us say generally the responsibility of proving ones faith lies with the original claimers surely if they are unable to prove anything (qauntifiable)would it be a rationally reasonable option (at that precise time) to not accept their word until further evidence is provided? Hmmm...Now I see what you mean it does seems a rather reasonable enough attempt to simplify things I suppose if not a little closed off and compartmentalised. I mean there are things within this universe that are unexplained-would it truly be that bad to listen to all views, assess them individually and if there is no clear answer leave a question mark on it instead of boxing it into the skeptical "bollocks" category Otherwise we become subject to not only a culturally acceptable arroagance but ignorance in the face of unaswered gaps. An example of such a rationality led to the idea that the earth was flat-until proven otherwise, that genetics does occur via a system of "blending~" infact but not mendelian genetics. So you see if they (the scientific ie somewhat rational community) can be wrong? Then so can you... All I propose is that people keep an open mind and leave aside any presumptuous notions without either the evidence to support or negate it. Its rather simple. I guess people in general are not happy with leaving questions marks all over the place and wish instead to fill the gaps within their understing-for what purpose I don't know.In pursuit of the truth? Or as a result of the basic forms of human self preservation? *Shrugs* Perhaps? Who knows.. Ps GG LOL-Sister if you'll permit me to give you one piece of advice try not to provide religious answers to those who are not "religous" in the form of I.e telling them of the maricles within the Quran when they most likely don't accept the Quran as a historically acceptible document anyway. Right or wong...it would save you a lot of time arguing. Try to find a common ground for which discussions can commense without it coming to blows-with another person sprouting verses from the quran. Wonderful and rather lovely do I find these verses yes... but others? I doubt it would be of relevance to them. Ps 2. I didn't even get to watch District 9-Totally pissed. Perhaps this eve?LOL-Off topic I know but eh..*shrugs?

Excuse me for the quick rambles everyone...I was half stuffing myself with Aftur. Oh and I'd just like to point out one other reply which was missed out. One I found rather interesting...quite refreshing even as its definitely a difference stance altogether. Now this really would make for an interesting discussion piece. Originally posted by humble.: Shabeel and JB, first I am not really too bothered about proofs or non-proofs or existence or non-existence or some such thing that might throw us into the whirl wind of claims and counter-claims, but let me, for the benefit of discussion, be more of a complete nutter and reduce the whole argument of this thread as being simply 2 of many other human or imaginative explanation of what exists or doesn't exist. What if there could be more arguments than just these two? What if there are other explanations more inclusive than Darwinism? Or that of religion? What I find very amusing in all human arguments is that its not merely the truth that humans are after, but somehow the 'missing link or truth' becomes the very exercise of 'countering the other'. And slowly by slowly, the need for truth itself becomes redundant since it doesn't either support one or another side of the argument. Perhaps we should find the hidding place of the truth? BTW, I don't think this forum exists, it is the constract of my imagination. I somehow created it. Now counter that. Definitely outside of the box and I like it. ...and that was NOT even a shameless attempt to seduce its author with compliments. Nothing but unadulterated honesty.

Nofsky- Fustrate yourself not in vain, brother Johnny is a slippery eel-would've made a good politician. LOL Johnny boy- Firsly thank you for being polite secondly and lamentably after much of your literally posturing and prancing (entertaining as it is) I now see that any notions I had of having a proper discussion must be scattered to the wind as any further discussions will become subject to nothing more than semantic bickering and purposeful misunderstanding if our previous replies are anything to go by. No disrespect to you but I do believe I made myself clear on the belief in “no god” is a belief thing. But just to simplify it and regrettably repeat myself again (something which I am loathe to do)...the essence of and just one definition of the word Belief- is the confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof. So your Sun rising from the west analogy is rather silly (I’m sure you’ll agree in hindsight) and for reasons so obviously pointed out by GG. That being while we have evidence ie ‘logical” and thus “rational” evidence to counteract the notion of the Sun rising from the west your own philosophy of Gods inexistence fails to provide anything of substance. Unfortunately and therefore your pyramid of a "rational belief” structure is a rather contradictory notion which inadvertently highlights naught else but the inadequacies in your decorative labyrinthine theories. As for your Angel analogy? LOL-You’ve got to be kidding right? *Lifts a brow* Its not dishonest it’s called science and it’s how we relatively rational human beings test theories, ideologies and belief structures. Your own one was that there was no god and thus its your responsibility to either prove your hypothesis correct or as close as to (or statistically probable) and significant possibility. The same applies for anyone who vouches for god’s existence. It would be fair to ask that the person provide some sort of measurably quantitative factor in order to ascertain an ideas validity. If one is unable to..then one leaves it to "faith" another acronym for "belief" It’s rather a standard practise in science and I’m a little amused if a little embarrassed with having to spell it all out as it were my dear. If perchance you do not have sufficient evidence as to support your ideas “much like faith” as it requires “belief” then you’re humorously falling into the same “irrational” traps. LOL So to conclude if...after all of this your either unable to understand or accept this rather simple idea then let us leave it aside as I’m not of the disposition to argue in circles. Having said that if you can provide something truly different and interesting regarding the “near death” experiences things then please free feel to divulge. If however your going to do a Dana Scully on me...then keep your peace-I prefer not to expel too much energy on trying to convince a born again sceptic on all things unexplained-especial ly when the pathic excuse for an explaination is flimsy..much like anyone elses..*shrugs* Thus its with much I bid you adieu. I’m off to watch District 9 and would be more interesting on discussing this point.

^- LOL Must you take my phrases quite literally...I meant Allah in the sense that when you allow a ball to decide your fate its unpredictable much like the fate Allah has decided for us...and seen as though we don't know whats to happen on a day to day basis its rather the similar on that point. Gordon...no, no its not an arranged Somali marraige as we know it because usually in those kinds of set up's one actually gets to see the bride/groom before hand along with their prospective families. You also get to have several key imformations about their roles what eachother do for a living etc. This would be a complete gamble.