If they want to compete under normal,legal democratic process, & the people vote for them,& they will in turn repeat the same process to work,& abdicate power if they lose--it's fine.But they never talk about parties,democratic process,and they never give power back.That is not an option for us, and who ever wants to try to usurp power by force,well,it's a fantasy in today's somalia.Keep dreaming. GANBARAAN UGU FADHIYAA.

Originally posted by Khayr: quote:Sharia is dictarorship That is the image that is spewed all over the media - chop hands and chop headsetc. Thats corporal punishment and not shariah as a whole. The Shariah is the legislative part of the deen that governs how to we interact with each other be it dealign with property lines between neighbors to defining how gets the zakat money etc. These laws are from the islamic tradition and no one particular group has a monopoly on them because islamic law has developed over 1400yrs and can not be redefined or redeveloped, so as to "reform" it. The idea of a dictatorship is that one regime, one man dictates and defines what is the rule of law and reforms it to shape their agenda. That is an abuse and dhulum/wrong doing. In Islam, it is the islamic tradition that checks regimes by means of the sayings of the islamic scholars (majority of them and not one isolated scholar that wants to reform the religion). Muslims leaving in the western hemisphere and those largerly educated by the media and blogs, have developed the western biase - that Shariah means corporal punishment (Chop, Chop and Veil those women). Yes,it's dictatorship.Men r enforcing it, & the qabiil is very,very much intertwined.Do u know at least 40 members of the 100 member excutive body of the islamic courts were of the same qabiil.It never worked,& it will never work. It will always be heavy handed,ruthless & uncompromising.Go for it--but I know u can't cross Beletweyn up north.Try-& you fail.I'm waiting on the side line. Ganbaraan ugu fadhiyaa.

Just being realistic.The same way we were before & after colonialism.Sharia is dictarorship,& anything heavy handed doesn't work with somalis(few yrs maybe).Because u really have to enforce it.Al shabab is really a fluke.History will write me correct.SHABAB can't go beyond belet weyn up north,& the chances there r absolutely nil-because people in those areas have settled with too much freedom,& they won't let it go.We can argue about it,but please let me know if it becomes anything closer to it.It won't happen.

Originally posted by Voltaire: quote:Originally posted by ElPunto: There is a simple answer here. As a Muslim one believes that Allah's method for governance, if properly applied, will be superior to whatever man-made systems there exists including the secular ideal you espouse here. That there haven't been any present day examples doesn't mean that this quest should be abandoned or that it is hopeless. Christians used to believe just that. Time has proven them wrong. It's hopeless.Give me an example,unless we wanna argue the customery way of "I'm muslim u r kaffir".

Originally posted by Hales: I dont think Secularism will work anymore saxiib, we need to try something that will replace qabilinism and unite the people and i believe Islam can do that. Another recipe for disaster.It's already happening--Why look far.Much better to follow the"LANDS".

Eng Csdde:I strongly encourage that we look any where for love.Don't get too pre-occupied with ur own people.I think that is healthy.Both men & women.

Where the ladies r ahead of men.Show me that,too. In addition most of u who go to school r paid by fathers & brothers--some of them have menial jobs--i.e like cab drivers.Most of u ,who brought u here in the first place?.It's true that some women sponsored some later on---but by in large it was men who brought the families first---paid ur tickets,knocked every door to find u a place to sleep & what to eat.And now u put ur pair of jeans & act like there was no yesterday.Look before u leap.

Originally posted by ElPunto: POP, Clearly you're on a tirade. Perhaps that is why there is little logical or relevant in your post. Empires of the past targeting male demographics indeed??? 1- There are many immigrant groups in North America - the place I am most familiar with. The rates of criminality for Somali men are much higher than for Chinese, Indian, Arab, etc immigrant group even if adjusted for the fact that more men than women commit crimes. In light of these stark facts - I'm not sure how one demonizes or degrades Somali men when making a comparison to Somali women or even to other immigrant groups. 2. In North America, Somali women are more likely to graduate high school, go to college or university, hold down a job and have no criminal records at disporportionate rates to Somali men. 3. When you make a comparison of the relative position of the 2 sexes - I am sympathetic when a Somali women says I can't find a decent Somali man since the numbers are not in their favour. That is not to say that they aren't many good Somali men out there. But there is a large disconnect. I've made no generalization or demonization of Somali men. I pointed out how far they lag behind the ladies. This is not revolutionary stuff. What a crap---show me.u have the lab top,go to the internet & get me the beef.If any they r the immigrants with the least criminal record. These women read too many black women magazines. That is exactly how black women talk about their men---true or otherwise.

Originally posted by Mr Prince: I think the four of you should go for foreigners, because in the long run, you guys will be fighting like this with your Somali partners, it's best to prevent, rather than cure. Not really.It's better to stop the one sided nonesense than to cure.

NNC:Whatever! We had a clash of ideas couple of months ago.May be u have a grudge againest me.There is no point in continuing this with u. Any way I'm not generalising somali women.Only what I meant was there is always those who will make some crazy stuff to trash somali guys.

What I'm seeing here is what messed up black women in the U.S.I can't lower the bar--but man yours should be higher always. Here is how it works. She. He. Work in office(20k) . NOO. Construction(50k) Bartender(25k) . NOO. Truck Dr.(40k) Nurse(40k) . Noo. Mechanic (80k) Unemployed(I need man) . Unemployed(Retard) In school(help . (help urself.ur man. 40k-liberated(can't find man). He Settled. 15k-I'm only a woman. YES 80k +3piece.Impre ssion matters. My advice is don't ever worry about this is kin.Every one fend for urself.I'v white wife & 4 beautiful children.I never missed somali women.With the attitude these women have-next they will talk how dirty ur under wear is.

I'm not saying there is no other cities.These were & are the largest ones,even today.And I was talking about the ones Siyad destroyed.Cool down. You don't have to defend what is obvious. I noted the ones behind him destroyed a lot. Bosaso,Galkacayo,get ruined?.Come on man! I see it's becoming like some other Somali sites I put the lid on. Waajid is as big as Mogadishu,too. Let me go back to my winter olympics. No hard feeling.

What ever he built as meager as it was,he left in shambles(Mog,Harg & Burao.)The 3 largest cities in ruin.Yes the war lords & the religious fanatics finished the job.Mengistu & Stalin rebuilt & left it intact.

Any one have any idea who the Tutsis really are? I was in Uganda long time ago;i met quite a few of them who told me they regard themselves Somalis.I do too.We very much look alike,besides Rwanda & Uganda(Museveni is Tutsi-Ugandan president)have peace keeping forces in Mogadishu. Rwanda & the US were the only two who were trying to mediate Ethiopia & Eriteria.They really care. May be we need to be conscious about our people who drifted 500yrs ago.

First,I was not defending the Shah.I agree exactly the way you said.Anyone who reads the article will see I was talking how various movements fought againest the Shah,and how Islamists stole from under the rug.Did I say Shah was good.No I did not say.I see your English is good & I don't know why you twist words.Ha you don't like the truth. You can check the book I mentioned above & Wekepedia & many other sources I'm sure you will find it. What it has to do with this article?Didn't we talking about secular state. Check back your posts. We are talking about how sharia & non sharia laws can or can not co-exist. Don't put words I didn't say into my mouth. I like clean & truthful discussion. If we disagree.Fine.But don't misquote me, and don't say "what it has to do with this , when you damn well know it is exactly what we talking about." And if you want to install an Islamic gov't, tell the people what you want in advance;not by deception.Saying what the people want and then come up with a whole new agenda once you come to power is a disservice to the masses & sinister at worst.And tell these Wadaads running with guns to lay down their arms & save people from further agony.If you just talk about two words every day-is that applicable to Sharia or not?that is just a lot talk.And if you go back home,and find out the reality on the ground,I'm sure you will come up with a whole new begining.The only areas people are really suffering is betwee Beletweyn & Kismayo.These are the areas the fundamentalists are either controlling or fighting.Between DusaMareeb & Zeila,people are really living o.k.You wont see beggars,few indeed.But there is a lot of displaced people from below Beletweyn,mostly women & children in this area.Last year less than 20 people get killed above Galkacyo to Zeila.Believe or not.

First,I didn't defend the Shah.I know what the Shah was.Exactly the way you described;I agree with you.What I was pointing is how the Islamists will go to a great length,to silence the people,

For me,I quit reading books & looking at certain statistics.Quite a normal-pure & simple. Most African countries have the potential to go forward like Korea,Indonesia,Malaysia,etc;which had their flags about the same time as Africans. I was reading an American newspaper couple of years ago,they compared Nigeria to Indonesia, because of a lot similarities.At the time both were between 150-200 million(close),had good agricultural sectors,oil,and in terms of education,Nigeria was rated first,back then in 1960 when it became independent.Indonesia had theirs some time late 1950s. So what happened?It is like day & Night now. Conclusion-corruption. And I add dictatership,which leads to tribalism and religious violence to maintain power,and then leads to unaccountability,and then to ultimate corruption & destruction. Poor Us!

Iran:The Islamic Revolution. Islam & revolution by khomeini. Iranian Revolutionaries: 1.Peoples' Mujahidiin(PMOI,also MEK,MKO)(Persian). 2.Marxists(communist TUDEH party). 3.Fadaian guerillas. 4.Anti-Shah secularists. 5.Constitutional liberals. 6.Reformist Islamic freedom movement. 7.And the more secular National Front. The most powerful was leftist Islamists (MUJ) and opposed the influence of the clergy as reactionary.The second most powerful were the Marxists & the Fadaian guerillas who had been weakened considerably by gov't repression.Despite this the guerillas did help play an important part in the final Feb.1979 overthrow delivering the regime its coup de grace. Many in the clergy did not follow Khomeini's lead.Popular Ayatollah Mohamoud Talegani supported the left,while perhaps the most senior & influential Ayatollah-Mohamed Kazem Shariatmadari-first remained aloof & then came out in support of a demcratic revolution. Many observers of the revolution maintain that while Khomeini's book(The Islamic gov't, authority of the jurist)was distributed to his core supporters,he & his aides were careful no to publicize the book or the idea to outsiders,knowing that groups crucial to the revolution's success-secular,and islamic modernist Iranians-were likely to be irreconciablly opposed to theocracy.It was only when Khomeini's core supporters had consolidated power that the book was made known to the general public. Khomeini worked to unite the opposition behind him(except the Marxists),focusing on the socio- economic problems of the Shah,while avoiding specifics among the general public that might divide the factions-particularly,his plan for clerical rule which he believed most Iranians had become prejudiced againest. Once in power Islamists found many frustrations in their attempts to implement the sharia, complaining that there were many questions, laws and operational regulations that received no mention in the sharia.Disputes with the Islamic gov't compelled Khomeini himself to proclaim in Jan.1988 that the interests of the Islamic state outranked"all secondary ordinances" of Islam,even prayer,fasting & pilgrimage. The severe loss of prestige for the Fuqaha (Islamic Jurists) as a result of disstisfaction with the application of clerical rule in Iran has been noted by many.In the 1980s,clerics were generally treated with elaborate courtesy. Nowadays,clerics are sometimes insulted by school children & taxi drivers, and they quite often put on normal clothes when venturing outside Qom. No dispute that Khomeini was a unifying factor,but the truth is that the revolution was shortchanged in earnest. This shows why Islamists are the antithesis of the democratic process. EVERY WHERE-THE POPULACE WHEN INFORMED REFUSE TO BE CONSTRICTED BY THE STRICT AND THE UNCOMPROMISING>

Pauper .O.k.I'm gonna continue this with you.Don't keep repeating" you're either muslim or not".Put some stuff on the table.Don't be overtaken. Impatient!

Lovely!Pragmatism should be order of the day.

I'm non muslim? that is fine,Pauper. If you come by the sword,you go by the sword. If you come by camel milk,you go by camel milk. Muslims have their choices like any other, and there is nothing you can do about it. SEE YOU IN HEAVEN.

But,bro.check any somali website.almost anything you talk about,some one brings in Islam(which is o.k.),but they make it always absolute,with no room to maneuver & thus kills any discussion immediately.We need to be civil. Give me a feed back,bro. Let it go it is a good thread.

Mr.Pauper,we can't debate under this cloudy atmosphere,where each step taken,some one yells, he/she againest Islam. Listen,bro.Siad Barre was a human being,a Somali and more over a Muslim,if that is what you are stressing,and you know where we are.Jihadists fare no better,actually worse.Amputations of limbs & death by stoning were in the script all along.We were muslims for 1300 yrs,and we never took such drastic measures,because people just refused to accept & still is the case with the exception of few regions run by the Jihadists by force of arms( contrary to what Islamists project that theirs is a peaceful transformation).AS for inheritance,why not let each family run as it sees fit. I guess you forcing facts to fit impossible desires.

Guys,it's quite refreshing to see such a marvellous team coverage.I'm kind of busy nowadays,but will try to present some facts in a logical & constructive manner. In the mean time I would like to point few underpinnings. INHERITANCE:I have two boys and four girls I love all of them as a parent would be.When I pass away (hopefully 70 yrs from now),their shares are in place,in writing & by witnesses,and is equally divided.That applies whether they live in or out of Somalia.Will that make me non-Muslim?I'm just trying to be fair to my daughters which I adore. Common sense dictates.I think this inequality should be tackled,and especially by the young in the diaspora as I assume they are more open minded.If some have a problem with the"common sense",I have few questions to ask. First:Are a good number of muslims promiscuous,don't pray regularly or not at all,don't lie,don't drink,don't kill each other (Somalia),etc.And I'm talking about good number ++.I THINK IT'S JUST A HUMAN TRAIT REGARDLESS OF FAITH. Second:Look at most Muslim leaders,there is hardly anyone his hands not get painted red.Here few. Saddam:Gased his own people(Kurds). Propaganda ha make my day. Siad:Bombed his cities & his people. I can figure more,but ya get all. May be time is not on our side,when it seems planting a flag on Mars is around the corner. For hard liners,each to his own, but we'll fight over it ,and it will never come to your fingernails.Never has so many owed so much to so few.I intend to be the few,and save these mothers and children who are under the yoke of these gun trotting prima donnas. Freedom for ever. Inchoate.

Mostly mankind is religious only when in need. Religious Wars. Ethnic Wars. Economic Wars. Interest Wars. At times it helps to believe in evolution,and that man is not yet finished.