To the ducks that started quacking, pls answer my questions first, then yourz will be answered (no matter how rhetorical they might be)! unless ofcourse you lack Comprehension

Why does A Muslim have to Apologize or be held accountable for whatever happens in the muslim world? I was watching this press conference the other night and the media were hounding the muslims and demanding off them to Apologize and Condemn actions that were done by other muslims. How come people don't hound/ask the average american citizens for an Apology and Condemenation of their nation's massacring of Falluja, the Japanese, Afghani kids and grandparents? Why is the muslim always expected to APOLOGIZE first, when the muslim is the one that is INSULTED and HURT?

Originally posted by Amelia: Ileen shaqo la'aan waa habaar. Those Sheikhs need to get a life - one outside of chewing KHAT endlessly and then meddling with people's private bizness. What if a couple of 'BABIES' were made from that party? What if it was your sister that could have been raped at that party? What if its a Muslim land and the people there have VALUES and MORALS and Promiscuity is not one of those Values? What if they the elders are not as LIBERAL MINDED as you are, mate?

chat is running

Originally posted by Caamir: What a great opinion by Bashir Goth! Thanks Amalia What was great about HIS OPINION/XAWAINATION? Please do share with us some examples of the Keyboard Orientalist's STUPIDNESS. Originally posted by Ngonge: I can’t really fault the man’s logic. It’s a powerful (though slightly on the long side) piece. I personally thought he was reasonable and controlled. His usual pieces are, almost always, hard on Muslims . There is also, usually, an attempt at a ‘fatwa’ or two (his Ramadan piece is a great example). Here however, he dealt with real problems with complete sense, solid logic and exceptional clarity. There was no attempt to ‘allow’ or ‘forbid’ anything. He started by praising reason and, fortunately enough for him, did not let himself down when it came to his own wisdom. How in the world did you come up with such thoughts-were you looking at your mirror again saxib? Bashir Goth said: One may be forced to draw an analogue, despite the difference in time and context, between Prophet Muhammad's struggle for freedom of worship in the early days of his call to Islam, and the West’s torturous and bloody journey to earn the freedom of speech they enjoy today. How in the world can you equate the RISALAH/MESSAGE of the Prophet of ISLAM (salallahu calihe wasilm), His struggle with that of Freedom of speech which stems from a rebellion to the Church and all that was/is SACRED? How does this goooof, Bashir Goth equate the two?

Originally posted by the-urban-hang-suite: ^^^that little man is probly picturing his own funeral.. ^^^^ The things a maaaaaaan has got to do to put a little caano and rowdii on the table for his family. Caption Title anyone:D

Salamz, I wonder what was CW now known as Amelia's reason for posting that article. :rolleyes: KEYBOARD ORIENTALISTS only end up CONFUSING themselves. These indecent attributes of Meccan non-believers to Muhammad are in our holy Qur’an. We read them everyday and we teach them to our children, but we don’t get angry and they don't prompt us to extricate these insulting words from the holy book and declare them as an apocrypha. Simply because we read them in their historical perspective and they teach us a valuable lesson that finally it was the word and indeed free speech that won the battle against the emotional outbursts of Muhammad’s adversaries, the sword of later days was but incidental. :eek: :eek: :eek: Easier to spread Confusion among the gullible, liberal oriented muslims. Since when was the life of the Rasul (salallahu calihe wasilm) and his Sunnah (path/way) become limited to a 'HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE'? If that is true, then Lessons to be learnt from the rasul's life, sunnans to be practiced from his life can be labelled to be OUTDATED and USELESS. Why wear leather socks, or grow the beard, visit the sick, after all there are cotton socks that are in abundance and cheap to purchase;wearing a beard would bring Unwanted Attention and Hostility, so its 'Out of style today';who needs to visit the sick b/c doctors heal a person better then a regular religious visitor...etc. the sword of later days was but incidental. If it was Incidental, then why would Allah praise those who speak the truth and fight for it over and over again in the quran (some of these verses are in Al Baqra) and in other parts of the quran. May be if we had read the Danish cartoons in the same historical and geographical perspective, we would have understood that Denmark is a non-Muslim country with its own values, its own culture and that the Danish people have the right to behave the way they want to behave on their own turf. But Bashir Goth has a different standard that applies to the Muslims as he comes down upon the Taliban The Taliban regime that kept the Afghan people hostage for years, ridiculed its female population and destroyed the historical heritage of the Afghan civilization and religious sculpturers of Buddha without any regard to the religious feelings of millions of Buddhists around the world was an insult to Islam. Don't those muslims have their own Values, don't they have the right to behave the way they want to behave on their own turf too Once again the double standards of a KEYBOARD ORIENTALIST such as Bashir Goth and those that agree with him.

Salams, Originally posted by Legend of Zu: That is the same course I have opted. my initial thought was to respond and partake this debate until i read the majority of what the debators wrote! and it occured to me that it wasn't about how to strengthen the islamic world, it wasn't about the prevention of similar events to occur in the future and definately it wasn't about what is the rightous approach. Silly me, it was about "Ooh I am Angry..look at me..I love the Prophet (SAW)..I'll instill fear in the hearts of Infidels so they wont abuse the Propohet Again!" As if they don't know there are thousands of Books that abuse and defame the Prophet (SAW)...and what were their response...I wonder? Just because there is a Mass abundance of GARBAGE, does not mean that you One SHOULD Accept that GARBAGE and be COMPLACENT about it. One should Clean up that GARBAGE, according to their CAPACITY-that should be the Muslim Motto and it is not a sign of Hypocrisy that one- can't clean up All the Garbage or blast all 4billion people who might contribute to that Garbage. Fi Amanillah

Originally posted by Nur: Callypso bro. You write: Nur, my brother, one does not elevate oneself by demeaning others. Answer; Thats right, be fair and tell that to the Danes, French, Germans Palau too? You write: Can you be sued for false advertisement? I was expecting to at least smile, even unwillingly. Answer; Not if you are spiritually Challenged. You argue: This is a favourite myth perpetrated by religionists. Contrary to your whole-cloth fabrication here, most Americans are happy, most don't commit suicide and your favorite trope (that of the wayward wife) is sadly not all that common. According to the CDC, suicide is not even in the top 10 leading causes of death. Instead, the leading causes of death are those killers in old age --heart disease, cancer, etc. In other words "the follower of Americanism" is somehow resisting the pull of the Brooklyn Bridge long enough for old age to claim him. Speaking of old age, the life expectancy in the US is 77 years, you'd think if life was so miserable simple apathy would kill our poor "Americanist" before he or she reached 40 even if s/he does not actively end it all in a showy display. But the pull of your argument requires no facts to back it up. It's a comforting tale told to oneself so many times that it becomes truth by repetition. Well, bro. If you actually believe what you have just said, then it may be the other way around, you have accepted the validity of what has been repoeated instead of questioning it, may I suggest an alignment of vision between us to explore where the misunderstanding resides. But that was interesting, you could not find any oter flaws with the Americanism religion? just with e-Nuri outlook? be credible, agree on some, disagree on some, at least, you will be believed. Nur Callypso, I believe Nur was Hollarin' at you!

Originally posted by NGONGE: ^^^ Still as vague as ever. Now, I don’t disagree with a word you said there. But, how do you propose to apply it to our current situation? What are you suggesting that the angry Muslims that saw (or heard about) those filthy cartoons do? Are you preaching patience? What exactly is your proposal for TODAY? Remember that people are acting regardless of what you say. Many already believe they have repented and returned to Allah’s ways. Many more believe they’re using the Quran and Sunna as their reference points. What do your vague (in this context) words mean? I’ve given you the example of all those Islamic groups for a reason. They all believe they’re following the correct teachings of the holy book and the prophet’s sunna (yes, even the Shiia). How do your words differ from theirs? I know it might need a whole thread to clarify your words and position, but since you’re doing it for good reasons and intentions, I’m sure you’ll find the time and words to be through with your advice. Give it ago and don’t hold back, saaxib. Edit: Your second post as even more ambiguous than the first. It’s as if I’m asking you how to cook a nice meal and you’re providing me with a shopping list without any instructions of how to cook the wretched meal. Put your apron on and start cooking, brother. Lets see if what you recommend will be as tasty as you imply. The shreeking noises of Ngonge don't need a response-every second, of every minute! Smile a little saxib and show a little gentleness-at times. A good teacher needs to show a little patience and kindeness towards his Students.

Originally posted by STOIC: The West understands to separate the “significant†from the “insignificantâ€. What the West views as a “significant†we don’t personally view it the same. A woman being mugged is more offensive to West than an insult on their religion because insult does not impact their lives but being mugged does it. As a Muslims whatever that is being directed against our religion or our prophet does impact us more than a woman being mugged. This is significant to us. The West-most of them- do not act collectively as we do. They may argue that this might not lessened their love for their religion. I personally think that there is a crush of significance here that needs a dialogue and not a violent repression. I am not an expert on how to achieve this, but I have itching feeling that it could be attained . ^^^^^^ and this is what some of the nomads don't understand when they are typing away and condemning muslims for 'REACTING VIOLENTLY'. When 9/111 happened, within a few hrs time, no questions asked, the amerrriicans BOMBED AWAY innocent MUSLIMS and the WORLD and most muslims DIDN'T SAY A THING. Why? B/c Popular Sentiment was on the amerrriccans side and thus justifying ALL THEIR ACTIONS. .... Honor is not VALUED anymore in the world and especially in anything that has to do with RELIGION. Life and Money are the most SACRED THINGS in MODERN MAN'S world.

S.O.S SAID: Am I anti-territorial-nationhood-divisions among Muslim peoples? Obviously! Where do these silly countries with their silly little flags come from? Our interests are primarily one and united by devine authority; Fake territories have many fake intersts; Our interests cannot be aligned with many fake countries: Don't you all think so? I agree and these 'fake territories' were CARVED UP by COLONIALISTS, so as to keep their HOLD on things.

If all that is posted about Muslims and Muslim nations is UGLINESS, day after day, month after month, year after year....then how in the world can you FIND BEAUTY in ISLAM? :confused: Mumia, what was the purpose of you posting this on the General forum, then the next day you posted it in POLITICS.

Originally posted by Alle-ubaahne: ^^ Oo gaalada hadii lala dagaalo ma decency ayaa laga tagay, mise waxaad decency u taqaaniin waxay iyaga ugu yeeraan xoriyatul-qowlka? cajiib Good question

Originally posted by Socod_badne: Alexus, I'm all for women overpowering men if that is what you desire. Personally speaking, I kinda dig overpowering hell cats. Originally posted by Socod_badne: quote:Originally posted by ALexus.: Socod_badne/Homer Simpson I desire for you to be my foot washer. Can it be fulfilled? Your foot washer? Now dear Alexus, why would you slave me with such medial task, of bantam tangible return, as washing your foot? As oppose to reaping staggering profits by slaving me to scheme ways to defraud senior citizens of their wealth. Resource management isn't your forte, is it? SB, She got you there....is your 'Submissiveness' to women, CONDITIONAL to your Liking? Resource Management....cut the 'you know what' saxib.

Originally posted by Castro: We should also shame them into learning about Islam, since their faith has been diluted and corrupted over the millennia. In fact, shaming works so well that we should shame murderers and rapists into "recognising the folly" of their crimes. Do you not understand Muslims view the cartoons as sacrilege? I won't bother cataloging your misunderstanding and mischaracterizing of my statements but I will ask you this, what are these "current conditions" that you're so adamant would make any laws useless and "unworkable"? You could spend time on that, and only that, if you will.

Originally posted by Castro: ^ Indeed he is and not without an impressive resume to add to his capabalities. I wish him the best and I'm sure it will be one more reason to watch the channel. My only fear is Al-Jazeera changing its hard hitting journalism to "accomodate" English speaking audiences. Clearly, this new channel is not targetting Arabs and may be watered down a bit. Let's hope that's not the case. When you become a BUSINESS first and try to reach out to different MARKETS -change to accomodate your TARGET MARKET, becomes inevitable. They will have to play by different rules now and come under the scrutiny of European Broadcasting Boards. MMA said: I sent them an email via on their newly established commissioning site in this past Oktoobar, suggesting the upcoming Ingiriis channel hire Mudane Raage Oomaar. Not to get over my head, I think this news bears the fruits of my well-intended –-though unappreciated -- suggestion. Saxib, You are a good reference, indeed! I think Google is hiring soon, can you put in a good word or two for me, to them.

Editor 'sorry' for Muslim cartoons Feb. 10, 2006 DOUG MELLGREN ASSOCIATED PRESS OSLO — The editor of a small Christian newspaper in Norway apologized Friday for offending Muslims by reprinting caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad in January. At a news conference, Magazinet editor Vebjoern Selbekk said he regretted publishing the cartoons on Jan. 10 because he had not foreseen the pain and anger they would cause among Muslims. "I reach out personally to the Muslim community to say that I am sorry that their religious feelings were violated by what we did," Selbekk said. "It is also only right for me to admit that I, as the editor, did not understand how offensive it was to publish the copies." The Evangelical Christian newspaper was among the first newspapers to reprint the drawings that were first published in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten in September, saying it was defending free speech. The drawings, now widely reprinted in Europe and elsewhere, have caused often violent protests in the Muslim world, including the burning of the Norwegian and Danish embassies in Syria. Selbekk made his apology at a hastily called news conference, where he appeared with the leader of the Islamic Council in Norway, Mohammed Hamdan, and Norwegian Labour Minister Bjarne Haakon Hanssen. The newspaper editor praised the Norwegian Islamic community for insisting on dialogue rather than violence in its response to the cartoons. "The Muslim community has handled this in a worthy and reserved manner. They deserve honour and respect for that," Selbekk said. Hamdan stressed that Islam values forgiveness and that Selbekk, who has received scores of death threats, was now under his protection. "Selbekk has children the same age as my own. I want my children and his children to grow up together, and live in peace and friendship," Hamdan said. Source Why did it take sooooooo long to APOLOGIZE? Is that all there is to INSULTING MUSLIMS; an APOLOGY should be GOOD ENOUGH for INSULTING our RASUL (sallahu caliyhe wasilm) and helping others to RE-PRINT the garbaggge? Is this a Detterent(something that will prevent this from happening in the future)to others who would like to RE-PRINT this garbage? If someone said 'F...You' in PUBLIC infront of the world and your family, wife, kids, parents etc. were put to shame, were harassed as a result of this and even people like their 'neighbors' started saying 'F...You' to them becuase of that first incident, would an APOLOGY be sufficent for you??? Its like if someone stabs you and takes out the knife and says-sorry, half hour later. Would that make THINGS ALRIGHT AGAIN?

Originally posted by General Duke: I think this a very divisive topic. All Somali's like their brothers in Islam felt anger at the insluts directed at our holly Prophet Mohammed (Peace Be Upon Him). I suggest brother you should change the topic to was there any protest in Somaliland? Because I know for a fact that my people in that area felt as bad as their brothers elswehere. This issue is bigger than our silly squables. So lets not drag our clanish differences to a matter that affects the whole Umah. I agree with you saxib. Xarago, I apologize for those comments but that doesn't give you a Licence to call people HYPOCRITES. Its jummah today, so aan iis caafino!

Salamun, She inquired.Her mother told her about the Prophet's request that she mary Julaybib. The daughter heard her mother complain and saw how she turned down the request. This bothered the daughter greatly. "Do you refuse the request of the Messenger of Allah?"She finally asked her mother. "Send me to him(Julaybib) for her won't harm me." The daughter then read a verse from the Qur'an to her parents that called belivers to obey the Prophet in all good things. Then she looked at them and said," Iam satifsfied and submit myself to whatever the Messenger of Allah considered good for me." When the Prophet heard what she said, he prayed for her, "O Lord, grant her good in abundance and save her from a life of hard work and trouble." ALLAHU AKBAR! ALLAHU AKBAR! ALLAHU AKBAR! Such conviction, such allegiance to the Rasul (sallahu caliyhe wasilm), such love for the Rasul (sallahu caliyhe wasilm) And the nerve of some muslims today, to question ANYTHING that comes from the Rasul (sallahu caliyhe wasilm) or to say that defending his HONOR is not worth defending or getting upset over.

Originally posted by Castro: NGONGE may be more interested in changing how Muslims behave than changing western laws to curb free speech. Though he won't come out and say it. Ngonge said I don’t believe laws will work. I believe that instead of angry demonstrations and burning of buildings and property, we should have shamed Europe (and the West at large) into recognising the folly of some of its people. To angrily demonstrate puts people’s backs up and is of no ultimate benefit to us. Do give us a Template saxib, Do give us a Blueprint saxib!!!!!!!!! Blessed/Aminah walaal, I haven't had a chance to glance fully at your response. You made some valid points and inshallah, i'll respond when I have some amble time on the computer, likely over the weekend.

Originally posted by Kashafa: quote:Civilized muslims are surprised just as everybody else. 'Civilised muslims' are the 21st century's answer to the Uncle Tom integration-seeking Negros of the civil rights era. Their entire world came crashing down on them because the hungry masses were stirring 'trouble' clamouring for their 'god-given rights'. Now, they're faced with the prospects of being kicked out of the suburbs and back to the 'hood. Deja vu, anyone ? As Jamilah said earlier, I can't help but think the reason why many Muslims in the West are so quick to distance themselves from the 'barbaric ferocious rampaging mob', is not because they disapprove of their actions, on the contrary, they wish they had the spine to stand up for their beliefs, but because all those funny looks at the office are getting to them. So they'll up and announce themselves as 'moderate'(whatever the heck that means), and paint the rioters and protestors as either extremists out for a clash of civilisations, or as ignorant reactionary poor people. In effect saying: "I've made the American dream and I'll be damned if those Thirld Worlders are gonna mess it up for me. Hey john, I'm with you guys on this one. Those crazies out there jumping up and down in the streets, tottally nuts dude. It's not even a big issue. Cartoons, for pete's sake. Why don't they protest about poverty, and racism, and homophobia, and fundamentalism ?" I'm not condoning the way the protests were carried out. But they were inevitable. Basic Human Nature 101. You don't poke a lion in the eye and when he starts going after every animal in sight, say: "Gee, now why'd he do that ? That was uncalled for." Don't poke him in the eye in the first place, and if you just can't resist it, well man up and deal with the consequences. As Colin Powell said about the Iraq war: You break it, you own it. And finally, about this whole freedom of expression ish, I'mma keep it simple: If your right to freedom of expression turns into freedom to insult, than my fist has the freedom to deny your nose's right to exist. I agree with you saxib. MashaAllah, beautifully stated. Now, if folks would just reflect on what you stated and not be so quick to attack you or others!

Originally posted by Callypso: Hello Khayr, quote: Maala uqdaadh baa deenta kaa qaabta, laakin, ummadha Nabi Muhammmed (sallahu caliyhe wasilm) badankayna, baan kaatirsanaxey! Now, I know my grasp of af Soomali is not the best, and there may be dialect issues here, but I don't understand what the above sentence means. Often when someone is intruded upon say a mother is threatened that her 'cubs'/children might be attacked, or will be attacked or have been attacked, that mother takes on characters of a LIONESS and becomes overwhelmed with RAGE and Anger. Now if someone found out the storyline behind that mother's RAGE i.e. Children have been attacked to PISS HER OFF etc., would there be room for SYMPATHY for that mother? Khayr, are we comparing attacks on defenseless children who can actually be injured/killed, with editorial cartoons lampooning a man you believe to be far above human interactions? Are some Muslims organizing violent protests because they feel Muhammed is in immediate danger of physical harm? If not physical harm, then do the cartoons hurt his feelings? If the answer is no, then shouldn't some sort of introspection allow a Muslim (no matter how angry) to reason that there are better ways to counter these offensive cartoons than to behave even more offensively? are we comparing attacks on defenseless children who can actually be injured/killed, with editorial cartoons lampooning a man you believe to be far above human interactions? Are some Muslims organizing violent protests because they feel Muhammed is in immediate danger of physical harm? :eek: :mad: You have a deep hatred and biaseness to Islam and muslims and in general, but most nomads on SOL are still part of the Ummah of Muhammed (salallahu caliyhe wasilm). (Translation) So respect our Deen and at the least , stay Silent! You're contributions are fruitless and bare nothing but disdain for musilms and their deen.

Originally posted by Callypso: Hello Kashafa, quote: I'm not condoning the way the protests were carried out. But they were inevitable. Basic Human Nature 101. You don't poke a lion in the eye and when he starts going after every animal in sight, say: "Gee, now why'd he do that ? That was uncalled for." Don't poke him in the eye in the first place, and if you just can't resist it, well man up and deal with the consequences. As Colin Powell said about the Iraq war: You break it, you own it. You say that the reaction to the cartoons is basic human nature, but then use an animal as a metaphor. People generally understand that there's a division between animals and humans, such that a human can curtail their reactions in response to aggravation. Not suggesting turn the other cheek or something, but how does burning embassies and killing or maiming innocents prove that Muhammed was not a terrorist? If the reaction was not intended to achieve that goal, then I can indeed see why you used an animal as a metaphor to explain Muslim sensibilities. Callypso, Maala uqdaadh baa deenta kaa qaabta, laakin, ummadha Nabi Muhammmed (sallahu caliyhe wasilm) badankayna, baan kaatirsanaxey! Often when someone is intruded upon say a mother is threatened that her 'cubs'/children might be attacked, or will be attacked or have been attacked, that mother takes on characters of a LIONESS and becomes overwhelmed with RAGE and Anger. Now if someone found out the storyline behind that mother's RAGE i.e. Children have been attacked to PISS HER OFF etc., would there be room for SYMPATHY for that mother? More to post on this thread...to be cont'd inshallah!

Originally posted by ATLAS: Scientists say there is directly observable evidence of galaxies moving farther and farther away from each other Many people take this to mean that the universe is expanding which has not ever rang true to me, my contention has been that: the universe--being all that exists--wouldn't have anything to "expand" into; because nothing exists outside the universe. Making it clearer i mean the question is a bit more complicated than that. "The universe" is an abstraction; it's a sum concept, it's not one single entity, consequently Space is somewhat like time; where time has motion, a perceptually-given fact, as its basic referent, space has distance, which is also perceptually-given. To say that "space is expanding", per se, is like saying "time is slowing down." Neither of them mean anything. It's only particular distances that can become greater or lesser, just as it's only particular motions that can speed up or slow down. like to hear your views... Is that why the question of WHAT IS VELOCITY is IGNORED in Physics and more concentration is given to Acceleration and Motion etc. I'll have to refer to this book that I have, later on this afternoon, inshallah. The biggest problem people make with the notion of "space" is its reification, attempting to make what is essentially a relational concept, into a "thing." As a mathematical abstraction we can locate objects in a coordinate system that we impose, but that does not imply that the coordinate system is itself a physical existent imposed on physical reality. :rolleyes: Inshallah, I will read up and review on this and contribute to this topic. Its a good topic, although I think that we have discussed it in other threads, with diff. wordings.