Qorran qallanjo luuleey you are officially inducted into Scholastic Society of Cyber-ku-Dirrir. Your post is off the hook . I like your style. That was an original post :cool: . However awoowe despite its many tactical blunders and its association with suspiscious characters, UIC is a fresh, genuine, and principled entity. It is the only alternative to the warlordism culture that got us in the dhooqo. I for one don't believe this is a holy war. So far my small sized noodle holder is not convinced that this is a holy war. However, I share the principles UIC was trying to advance. I urge you too to carefuly examine these principles. Don't focus on the personalities, they come and go but the system itself is what matters the most. May Allah help them for they want to advance his word. They sure have a big heart and good intentions. They didn't have the experience and intrigue required in managing a complicated and messy situtation of this troubled region. TFG on the other hand was a necessary evil. It was the product of two years of deliberation. Good or bad, TFG was the outcome of that process. It failed. We will have to go through another lengthy deliberations. In the meantime Somalia or rather parts of Somalia will have to keep on enduring the abscence of just and legitimate government...for one, two, ??? more years. Maandheey Somali problems are not black and white.

^Maxaan sharaf-xumada ku mutaystay boowe? Wiirsi? Xaasha Alle-U-Baahane magac qurxoone, hadal ayaan darro ah yaa ka dhac-dhacaya beryahan. Kaftan-dhable yaan ilaa hadda kugu dayay. Wali kuguma wiirsan. Hadaadse is dabaqaban oo aadan af Muslim iyo mid gaalo mid la iman, iyada bay boowe tagaysaa. Wiiloow tuhunka ku dilay iyo Kali-islaamnimada aad iclaamisay iyo kafada luqunta kuu sudhan ee aad qofkii abaartii hadlaba aad xukunka kula ag kufayso ninkii tilmaan ka bixiya boowe ma gaaladuu raacay, ma gaalo-la-dirrirka buu dibindaabiyeeyey, ma aayad buu dafiray oo waaba dibada? Waxad yeesha cagta dhulka dhig meel dhaxaad lalmanaysaa e. Talo haddaad iga maqlaysa waxan ku leeyahay kobtu waa gole. Wax walba waad ku arkeysaa. Hadday diintu kaa dhab tahay nasteexo bal ku day. Wax tusaalee, xagga iyo xageerba wax ka tilmaan, hor Ilaahay addiga siday kula tahay u sheeg adaan cidna tuhmin, xukumin, ama diintaba ka saarin. Hadaad damiin tahay oo aadan hawshaa ku filayn dee u daa ragga kaaga haboon. Awoowe qofkii islamka u gargaaraya Allah ha guuleeyo. Waan hubaa inuu najaxayo oo aakhiro iyo adduunba liibanayo. Haddii ay kula tahay ayaan darrada Somalia ka jidhaa Jihad hadde inama acmaal bi niyaad wa ina kulimri' maa nawaa khayr badan iyo guul baan ku rajaynayaa ee soo shahiid. Annigu waxan leeyahay boowe shidaa taagan. Amar baa dhacay, waa la isku le'anayaa. Nabada in doon doon lagu dayo iyadaan mabda' laga tagayn bay ku qurux badan tahay. Maanta si baan u liidanaa badhkayo dhanka kale yey ka soo jeedaan. Gaalo ma aha e si baa amarku ugu dhacay ee u ducee in Ilaahay dadkaa walaalaha ah ee Islamka wada sheeganaya ee barkood gaalada la soo duulay in qalbigooda isu dumo cissigiina Ilaahay u soo celiyay gaalada ka faa'iidaysana ka dhex saaro. Waa nasteexo inkastoo aan ku yara dheeraaday. Sidaadaba waligii mid u toog hay. Waxaad waligii ogaata in sideedaba dadka bini'aadamka ahi uu kala ra'yi noqon karo, in mid arrin la quman in kan kale ay la qaloocnaan karto.

^You are the dady of all traitors Alle-U-Baahane has declared cyber-jihad on you War ninyahow walaguu yaabaa. When Habasha are here...who needs 2morrow

Geellii la qaadyaye haddaan lagugu gubaabaasin, Gurrigii la geeyaba haddaanan gaas dhan ku afuufin, Haddaan lagu guban, waa haddaan gobi ku maaleyn. That was the preview my man. The movie starts the minute Habasha reaches Mogadishu gates. The minute it does, sh*it will hit the fan. It will be too dirty, too bloody, too tragic, and too costly mano to mano kinda war. Benadir is no Jowhar. Millions call Benadir their home. They got nowhere to run to. There is no nationalism in this. There is no glory in this war. If there is one I fail to see it. This war started as war of choice and has now become a resistance war. TFG has won the contest by employing Ethiopian might. Ethiopia achieved its goals as it succeeded weakening UIC significantly. Ethiopia has also succeeded deepening Somali divide and can now sit back and watch the carnage unfold. This might be Jihad to many. It is a tragedy in biblical proportion to me. It might be a nationalistic wat to armchair generals and chicken hawks who show their rage in this cyber space but it is loose loose proposition in any way I look at it. Ciiloow wayee! talo xumaan cudur ka weyneyn e, Anoo soo cesha leh bay col u hayaansheene, Cabdul iyo waxaa igala tagay caabuqii wadaye, Complicity in Puntland. Silence in Somaliland. One clan in Beledweyne area is in collusion with their clan cousin who is hell bent to settle old scores with another clan. Mohamed Dhere has his clannish die-hards behind him. Combination of civil war and religious war seems to be taking root. Brilliant. Ethiopians has now scored a touchdown. Big time. What to do now? How to prevent a civil war to take shape in 90s image, drive Ethiopians out, and reach some sort of understanding between Somalis. How to do that? Is that impossible? Is there an elder, an statesman, a leader, a wise man out there somewhere who can put the winning formula 2gether and bring all concerned sides to their sense. I gotta tell you folks without us Somalis seeing eye to eye, Ethiopians will keep on winning. We will keep on losing and lose big. That's the truth. Take it fro me fellas. Gudduntaay hadaan badhkay kugu jidhin ima aad goyseene soo ma ahayn xikmadu.

^^True that. But I made my stand crystal clear at least more than three times in this thread alone. As for that train has left the station assertion, I guess there is some truth in that. And that addresses the feasibility of the ceasefire not the need for it. From what I understand, the offer is still on the table. EU is spearheading this effort. If and when UIC takes up the offer, the onus of refusing (with diplomatic consequences) is on TFG and its Ethiopian ally. The least this play achieves is the opening for Arab League involvement. As things stand now that opening is shut close by UIC call for "Jihad" against Ethiopia statement not being retracted as of today. UIC strategy is military in nature with no diplomatic effort complementing the military strategy.

Provocative post

Surprise surprise!

K-didy, try again. Obviously you failed in first attempt. Stop tailgating the man Lander. Come up one of your own. I'm expecting you to deliver the goods. You got all night long to do your nitpicking. Good luck for your assignemnt . Castro, No I don't think TFG is driving the kareeto but it is riding it big time. BTW, no offence is taken buddy. I don't usually take offence in these type of exchanges. But next time engage me in my views instead of questioning my loyalties. That was not your style last time I checked.

^UIC. What makes you say that amigo Castro? Now be a good sport and play ball my man. I got about 20 minutes beforw I head to my dirin. What's wrong with that qoute. Be specific?

K-Diddy, In the game of tribal wrestling, the idea of convincing ur nemessis (presedential hopefuls) to vote for you for the promise of cabinet position is an impressive trick.

You are correct. Since TFG is null and void why should UIC sit down with them is the question? An excellent question. Here is why: Ethiopia is determined to give the support the TFG needs be military or otherwise. That means everytime you defeat TFG, it will be propped up by Ethiopia. Not only that, TFG is now an internationally recognized entity with all the trappings of diplomatic benefits. AU, UN, US, Arab League, IGAD are all responding to its calls for foreign troops. None is willing to condemn Ethiopian aggression so long it has TFG permission. All these facts make TFG a formidable challenger. Formidable in the sense that it can employ Ethiopian might to advance its interest, call international entities as well as regional ones for their help and so on. Now that being the case and the fact that one always sits with one's enemy (whether that enemy uses its own muscle or that of a third entity muscle is irrelevant) to make peace, it is inevitable for UIC to sit down with TFG. What you are addressing is TFG's legitimacy in the eyes of Somalis. It's legitimacy as a reconciliation government is null and void as far as I'm concerned. However, the two sides have no choice but to sit down as two opposing factions looking for ways to end the conflict. The objective is to end the war. There are two entities at war with each other. TFG is one of them. Legitimate or otherwise it is part of the conflict and UIC, if they are to cut their losses to a minimum, have to sit down with TFG. Ceasefire is a necessary prequisite for the talks to occur. Here is the kicker and that is TFG will insist as being the only legitimate transitional entity. It is UIC to make the assessment whether to swallow that or not. If they were to ask me advice I would say do it and make a dignified deal before it is too late. Castro, you are now in the warmongerer column . Did I miss something?

SW, I guess we reached the end of the road my man. Let's wait and see what dread tomorrow may bring. I'm holding onto every bit of hope that folks in charge will see the light and bring this cycle of idiocy to an end by declaring ceasefire followed by a negotiated settlement. Originally posted by LANDER: If some of you 'political scholars' hell bent on schooling in the art of 'negotiated settlements' were honest with yourselves you might see these developments differently. Welcome Lander. Take a breath and calm down. Better? Good. How different would you like us look at the situation? Before you make a fool out of yourself plz read the post in its entirety and then share your wisdom cuz you might end up pointing an angle we've already covered. For a brief recap, UIC's success in bringning peace to Benadir has been acknowledged. Its political platform and its stated goals have won my approval and support. To say I have respect for the cause and principles in whose name they are fighting for is understatement. From the get-go, I condemned Ethiopian interferences in our domestic affairs. My repeated dissaproval of TFG's collusion with Ethiopian establishment is a matter of record. Likewise, at the outset, I disagreed UIC impatient "Jihad" declaration on Ethiopia for I thought that was a blunder of first order. Now they are in a fight against a resourcefull enemy, I thought that it is in their interest to accept a ceasefire. Do you disagree with that assessment? Be my guest. Do you see contradictions in my conclusions and my stated Islamist/Somaliweyn principles in my posts? Please highlight them. If you do that with straight face you will have contributed to the discussion and by extension exposed a hypocrite. It shouldn't be difficult! Are you up to the challenge boy? Anyone? Noh? Very well let's refrain from I'm holier than thee BS ala Alle-U-Baahane style. This is a "put up or shut up" challenge!

Guuleedayre, abowgiis waxay dhib ka joogtaa Kaligi Muslim baa haw kugu soo oranaya hadaad sidas bay ila tahay tiraahdo. Eeda saa la iigu sayrayo hadde waabad aragtaa. Waxa uu Alle-U-Baahane ku kalaamay waad akhrisay. Awoowe sidee wax loola wadaagayaa nin aaminsan in isir iyo hayb dhan ay shayaadiin yihiin. Annigu shaqsiyan IndhaCadde waligay uma aqoonsan mutadayin. Kolay innagu daahirka yaynu xukminaynaa. Ninkaasu af iyo addinba waxii aan ka aragnay kuma sifaysna hadyul nabi. Shaqsiyan qiil waxan isu tusay maadaama nimanka wadaadu cadawgoodu badan yahay in ay furan tahay in ay la heshiiyaan ninkii iyagga u hiilinaya. Waswaas badan baa i galay dhowr jeer. Haddana waxaan uga haray in waqtiga lagu jiro uu yahay mid adag. Awoowe gadaal sheekadu waxay ka noqon Ilaahay baa garanaya laakiin sida aan is leeyahay belo yaa dhacday. Cadow aan kuu turuhayn iyo mid ku yaqaan oo diirada u sida oo leh halkaan bay mareen baa la isku saliday. Waxan qabaa maalin kale haba joogtee maalinka maantay ah dib gurusho xeel dagaal waxay ku dhaanto garanmayo. Sida ay ila tahay awoowe haddii ay suurto gal tahay waxaan is leeyahay in heshiis la dalbo yaa fiican si loo badbaado. Waxan aaminsan nahay dawladda Somalia u dhallan doonto qaab iyo cudud aan uga qaybgalno in lala haro oo ragga birta aan la wada saarin. Soomaali hadaan aqaan waa wax ba'ay oo kolka xaajadu xumaato waa sarifmaan.

First off my heart goes out to Rahima for her loss. The loss of loved ones and grieving the death of young family member (I assume he was young) is a very painful. May Allah ease your pain and May Allah grant him the Janah. I missed the post. SW, I see. It is too soon to make the call though. Ethiopians seem to be tilting the balance of power to the TFG’s favor. I agree with you on that point. I have to disagree the domino effect that you are predicting though. My reading of the situation is that UIC will lose a large swath of territory to the TFG, warlords, and Ethiopian forces. Benadir, however, is not in play. Suppose Ethio-backed TFG and its coalition of convenience (warlords such as Qaybdiid and Mohamed Dhere) manage to add Jowhar, Kismayo, and Marka to their column. Can they keep their new gains without Ethio backing? How long is Ethiopia willing to commit its meager resources to a what, for all purpose and intent, looks like a protracted guerilla war? To defeat UIC completely, Benadir must fall. Benadir being out of the question, UIC has the ability to wage a guerrilla war against muscular Ethiopia. If Ethiopia withdraws, UIC can take on TFG quite easily. In this context, Col Uways is very much in the game and doesn’t need Col. Yussuf kindness or generosity in order to safe his neck. Add the possibility of TFG internal daemons rearing their ugly heads again. Not to mention the loose cannon such as Mr. Dhere getting all worked up again. Where does that leave the TFG’s wish to preside a transitional government before its tenure gets expired? Or UIC plan to pacify large swath of the country and bring under Shariah rule? Stalemate at the end? Yes! Unwinnable war? Absolutely! Possibility of all the above-mentioned points are what makes the ceasefire all more urgent now. Both camps have vested interest in resolving the issues in a peaceful manner. They both just cannot achieve their stated goals through war. They are kidding themselves if they are thinking this way. TFG is nothing without Benadir and Benadir is not your cup of tea. Time is the essence here. TFG doesn't have much time. Ethiopia might cannot deliver Benadir and without Benadir, TFG is not a whole. There is no running from the facts. Nothing short of negotiated settlement with UIC can crown Col. Yussuf. On the other hand UIC cannot attain its stated goals without resolving core issues of Somali problem. Somalis are a divided nation and the tribal culture today trumps Islam. Guns don't indoctrinate people, education and orientation do the job. UIC will thrive in stable and peaceful Somalia if it reaches a settlement with its nemessis - a deal that will allow UIC's political platform to be part and parcel of the political structure of the post-conflict Somalia. Ceasefire is a must. Anything short of that means one thing and only one thing: protracted civil war sustained by proxy war. Somalis will be caught in the middle. Not a good prospect.

SW, Good to see you back buddy. Dhalaanka goluhu iyaguu u xiran yahay waayadan. Bal ila yurree awoowe! Fadlan share your reading of the rise of the two colonels – the men of the moment. Don’t you forget the jacbur I served for the dhalaan’s consumption is a Waxa-la-Yirri version, not an authenticated biography of the colonels. As to the proposed ceasefire, I stand by it firmly. Funny that you are predicting a deadlock. The fact that there will be a deadlock strengthens the case for ‘cease and desist’ order. The need for a suspension of active hostilities followed by a negotiated settlement is a case that's very hard to dismiss. The contestants’ willingness to heed that call will be problematic especially when one side seems to be gaining more territory at the expense of the other. But still that’s the only way out. Castro iyo Xiin, I beg to differ. This war was a war of choice. Today it has become a resistance war and it will stay so as long as Ethiopia's agression continues. Ceasefire is a must. There is no other way around if you want UIC's political platform to keep its teeth. Ethiopians WILL NOT invade Somalia - they just can't. They will, however, try to tilt the political and military balance in the South to its friends. Colonel Abdullahi will do his utmost to ride Ethiopian might to eliminate his opponents. That’s the name of the game. That’s my reading. On the other hand, UIC knows that Benadir is safe. They will make their stand elsewhere. If all else fail they will use guerilla hit-and-run tactic. Either way you look at it, Somalis in general will be the sole losers. TFG, despite of its association with warlords, is now an internationally recognized entity. It has the backing of some Somali clans and regional powers as well. It is said to have the loyalty of one of the recovery zones up in the North. This fact makes them a formidable player in Somali politicking. I share the sentiment that in the wake of Ethiopian aggression and its involvement in the current conflict, it effectively became a faction of the conflict. It is no longer a reconciliation government. I’m of the opinion that until the TFG mandate expires, TFG will be part and parcel of any negotiated settlement in the South. What you are ignoring is the fact that once the sides sit down everything will be on the table including TFG’s tenure, 4.5 formula, Ethiopia's boots on Somali soil, Shari’a as a political platform for the post-conflict Somali Republic, looted properties, and you named it. These are core issues of Somali politicking. I don’t know! I keep on making the assumption that these leaders are capable of seeing the light. Alle-U-Baahane, One word for you: ayaan darro. Here is my advice: plz oh plz don’t you speak in the name of UIC. Leave that task to the able and knowledgeable Xiin and Nur. Your ignorance hurts the movement image big time for impressionable minds will think your line of reasoning is same as that of UIC. Ngonge, Again you hit the nail on the head. Indeed the ceasefire is not only a must but it is also the only outcome.

^ What the hell are you talking about yaa ME? Discovered what? Neutrality? Let's keep our eyes on the ball! Shall we? Who should call the ceasefire? No need to call a new one. Just accept the one initiated by EU with Arab League. It is on the table as we speak.

You are wrong there. With ceasefire declared, Ethiopia can not resist the diplomatic pressure. Even if it is not feasible the least thing that come out of this is the Egypt, a regional counter weight to Ethiopia, will push another UN resolution. As of today, because of the UIC's public call for foreign "Jihadists" to help and Jihad against Ethiopia, no nation is forthcoming in condeming the Ethiopian aggression. Why not play ball. Keep fighting the good fight but play ball damn it.

Originally posted by me: Mr.Baashi, . . . Baashi, hadalka waan kaa yareenayaa, I know exactly where you are coming from and how you are thinking. I will no longer accuse you of anything. I will do my bit and more for my country and we will see those who love Somalia and the Somalis. Waan kala baxaynaa bur iyo biyo style. The cowards and the dabadhilifs only have to face themselves. Explain to yourself why you are acting the way you are. Hide behind any excuse, use any justification but at the end of te day you know there are two reasons why you are acting like this. 1. Cowardice 2. Clannism and nothing else. Here u go again . You got one thing right though. I'm not that brave. I don't wanna die for UIC war. Are you?

Originally posted by Castro: Edited: But Baashi, it's ceasefire or a route so it's not really a novel idea you're proposing here. Take it a little further. With whom shall this ceasefire be negotiated and under which terms? Here is how formidable forumers engage in debates. This is an excellent question. Take notes peeps for ur man Castro knows how to cut to the chase. Now, amigi Fidel here is how I see it. There are two parties in this conflict. UIC on one side and TFG with its Ethiopian backers on the other side. The theatre of contest is in the South. That means the two recovery zones up in the North are excluded from the contest as of today. The UIC sits with TFG not with Ethiopia. For Ethiopia is insisting on the line that it is defending an internationaly recognized Transitional Government. At this point my understanding is that Ethiopian demands will be chanelled through TFG. The terms are crystal clear. The ceasefire shall be immediate and complete. All the parties will stay put where they are today. UIC will clarify that its call for "Jihad" has been misunderstood and the real meaning of IndhaCadde's statement was lost in translation. They will clarify that they are not planning to attack TFG controlled area. They will demand a Somali-owned reconciliation talks held in Arab nation. They will recognize TFG as the outcome of collective clan-shared process as it's the only thing we have to manage the country through the difficult period of reconciliation process. By recognizing it will undertake the necessary security needs of TFG so it can come to Benadir. On the other hand, TFG will promise the withdrawal of "front-line states" forces in Somali soil out persuant to UN, AU, US, and Arab League understanding of the UN resolution (I don't remember the numbers). It will recognize the legitimacy of UIC reign over the lands it controls. It will agree to a new power-sharing formula that reflects the realities on the ground. It will promise to refrain the provocative name-calling that undermines the legitimacy of UIC as a grass root organization such as "Al_Qaeda" and what not. This sort of exchanges will be understood as being having an adverse impact on delicate peace. This will at least generate a much needed support for UIC diplomatically. Having clarified its position vs. "Jihad" on neighboring country, the Arab-League, Djbouti, Eritrea will have the opening they need to condemn Ethiopia's aggression and also provide a much needed regional representation to isolated UIC. It is not perfect. UIC won't get everything it wants nor the TFG will be happy stopping the momentum of gaining more territory at the expense of UIC. However, Somalis will be saved from unwinnable and disasterous war and both camps will be compelled to sit down and hammer out a working and practical plan that can get us out of this sorry state of affairs. This is a start of a negotiated settlement of core issues of Somali political problems. How the final outcome will look like is anybody's guess but this is a table we must sit down together sooner or later. The sooner the better. This is a hasty post. I'll come back and clarify if needed. I'll take a break and I'll be back later. Ku durduriya.

Again with all due respect Mr. ME you are full of hot air. You sound as a nationalist. Although that stand is respectable position to take, the timing could not be more wrong. Somalia is a broken glass. It is very hard to pick the pieces and make it a whole again. UIC was our hope. The Khartoum peace post was the road to Rome so to speak. Today the things are different. Ethiopian jets are bounding Somali cities. TFG is providing the cover by saying they are the ones that are fighting. AU and the regional bodies are taken back by UIC "Jihad" declaration against sovereign state. I don't expect you to understand the grave miscalculation UIC made in declariong an impatient war. What I expect you to acknowledge, however, is that tactical retreat is not synonymous with surrender. It is part of military strategy to revive negotiations when the odds of winning is slim. Now I see you are proud Somali. You like to attain a dignified victory over our archenemy. Listen kidos that would be wonderful and who am I to oppose that. However the facts are facts. The muscle is not there. Let's go to the gym and build that bicebs and come live to fight and other day. This is tiring wallahi. Don't you have brains to get it kidos?

^ what do u mean by that young man?

That's not enough my friend. I don't know you from John and Peter. You might know me in my days in MN. But that's not here and there. The idea that one cannot be neutral in issues of the day has no legs to stand. Add that to the fact that I'm not neutral in this case. I have principles and my principles compelled me to support the stated goals of UIC. However the way UIC excuted the plan is something I totally oppose and for a reason at that. I'm not willing to cheerlead for an strategy I oppose 100%. Now the ceasefire is something I think benefits the UIC. if you see holes in my argument go for it and show me what they are. If you are too emotional to engage me plz stay away for I'm looking for someone who can challenge me without getting all worked up. FYI I've been wrong before and I will not be surprised if some1 proves me wrong today. Ceasefire is the way forwad. This is my stand.

You are absolutely right there yaa Paragon. Indeed I did. However, I meant a case that's more inline with current conflict. Now the bush is clear make the case sxb. Let's do it buddy. The floor is all yours.

^Engage me in the issues at hand yaa clean-hearted honest guy. In any case you have a good point there. Ceasefire could mean surrender. However the one I'm proposing is not a surrender. Oh boy! Xoogsade I can come out and give my support to my clan elder Abdullahi Yussuf. I chose not to. I could but didn't and no one is preventing me to do so. Are you man enough to go beyond "I'm and the faction I support are the embodiment of honesty, dignity, and what have you and the 'other' (read that as you wish) who air different point of view are gaalo raac kinda rubbish? Here is ur opp buddy! It takes a manly man to set emotions aside and make the case he advances. Paragon, My man I didn't ask you a rerun and paraphrases of theories. At issue is THIS war. UIC picked a fight with a neighboring nation. It called a Jihad. Somalia whose name it speaks are divided in fiefdoms and plagued with negative tribalism. Sir how this war of choice is a "defensive" war is what I'm interested to understand. Boowe ku laabo dee and give me somthing jewable.

Horn, Awoowe you need to heed the proverb af daboolan waa dahab. You and Il Generale and co. are making urself a laughing stock. If UIC are pushed back it is because of Ethiopian might. To inaundate the forum with Hiiraale or TFG captured this tuulo or that tuulo kinda news, while its true that there are warlords taking part of the fight, is completely beyond you guys. Have you know no shame friends. Tuned it down please. This is a moment of tragedy. There is no glory in this tragic civil war. The fact are the impatience of UIC and indignity of TFG got us in big dhooqo. Ethiopians got the excuse they've been looking for and boy they are milking it like no tomorrow. Just don't make urself arses. I know u feel making the case for the other angle but Ilaahaan idin ku dhaarshey this is too low and unbecoming of decent Somalis. If anything we supposed to weep for the victims. Instead of hailing one side of the contest, let's dissect what happened and the way forward. How to get out of the bottom of the pit. These are worth the energy and a more fitting topics to discuss. Somalionline first page is a one stop for Somali news. No need to inundate the forum with propoganda fellas.