Kowneyn, From what I gather, what you have an issue with is the "lip service" paid to the Somaliweyn and perhaps the insincerity coming from some proponents of Somaliweyn but not in itself. Good. Do I hear you right? after all you do respect the wishes of residents there and their right to determine their future. Excellent.

Ayoub, Sit back and hold your breath Ms London is in the mood of listening how pro-unity and ant secessionist are going to attain the united, stable, peaceful, just and inclusive government for all Somalis . She had just cleared up the misconception others may have about the secessionist as she put it they are all for “developed and stable Somalia”. So, get some tea and enjoy the civilized conversation with the lady from Burco. As to the Fu’ad type and his likes such as Jamac Qalib and Osman Kaluun why don’t we put them in the same basket eh? I see you quoting Lewis already it must be emotionally satisfying to have him say things you would like to hear. Very well Qallanjo, There is nothing wrong with the unity of Somalis or that matter the reconstitution of the former Somali state but we don’t see that happening now or anytime soon do we? Why? Who is against this goal? From where I stand, the obstacles are many and they include the greedy warlords in the south and the uncompromising secessionist in the North. The premise of having strong and united Somalia is straightforward and simple. It can be defended from Islamic, nationalistic, and economic perspectives. It is the right thing to do. Whether you support after warlords become organized as political unit or before any tangible progress from some part of the country is achieved is something we can discuss. The important thing is that you do support “developed and stable Somalia”. The other side of the coin is what happens if secessionists continue their effort, a misplaced effort, to champion the futile goal of separation based on what European power colonized what part of Somalia. The question of border demarcation comes into the picture. This creates a new conflict between those who support the separation and those who are against it. This is about the North itself hence “if Somalia is divisible so is Somaliland”. If you are with the crowd who don’t want to force the regions that are not willing to go along with the secessionist point of view of what is good for that corner of country then you would open another Pandora box. Adherents of this view, if they are successful, will set a precedent in the sense they validate the idea of those malcontents and reactionaries, clan or any other group, can exact a disjunction from the state by just declaring their intention. Hiran or Puntland, for instance, can have its own state and start putting effort to seek recognition. Not to mention the balkanization and the domino effect it will have to the rest of the country. If we opt the reconstitution of the former state, cease the quest for recognition, start saving no effort to that end, and start working toward a system of governance that addresses the concerns of all parties then we will be equipped to address the challenges our nation faces in this 21st century.

Kowneyn, "Somali card" is the right card. Would I play it if Lewis's views were against Somaliland? Now stop right there! I'm not aginst Somaliland but I'm against the secession. The distinction should be clear for all. Now regardless whose views it is Somali or otherwise, I'm agianst the secession for a reason. No. You don't need to remind me the fact that the reconcilition talks are funded and mediated by foreigners...if I may add foreigners whose sincerity are quesionable. From where I stand, getting these warlords and other leaders agree on something is one step closer to peaceful, legimate, and just government for all Somalis. If getting there requires other hand (unfortunte indeed)then I'm all for it. What you need to remember is the fact that Somalia is not the only country where third parties lend help hand to get the factions agree on political settlement. Peace process, conflict resolution, and nation-building...ever heard them...I'm sure you have heard these terms.

Fair enough Ms London. Cool is ur nickname in my book Now...let me remind u the subject he is on is Somali politics and there is no harm in discussing his topics on SOL politics thread...I think it is befitting forum to dissect his “redundant” thesis and/or his intentions behind these articles. True he has no power in shaping Somalis future. However, he can mislead, distort, and misrepresent the facts on the ground by using his credentials to advance the cause he shares with some Somalis. Blv me there are naive folks who reference his "opinions" as if they are ahadiith! Not to mention the influence his works lend to the lobbyist and their clients. I don’t know about ignoring him though especially when he is among Somalis whose political agenda include separation without all Somalis being consulted on the matter. That will leave him unchallenged. I think someone preferably Prof Samatar should remind him that this is a Somali problem and should be left for Somalis to sort this one out by themselves. “We” are not using him as an excuse to find something to talk about...we do talk about all sorts of thing here...and if by “talks” you meant the reconciliation talks in Nairobi, blv u me he is not in their radar! On the point of hearing “how Somalis will unite Somalis” well if you have time you will hear plenty of that redundant opinions in SOL Waa sidaa Qallanjo :cool:

It is true Ms. London that Lewis is: 1. Orientalist. 2. Old colonialist. 3. For secession. 4. Former advisor of the dictator. 5. Lobbyist for secessionist. U see I say this without jumping on all over u No one is saying he is responsible for Somali problems as I understand it but he is using his expertise to further antigonize the political divide by empowering one side with his redundant thesis. True. Somalis are responsible for their predictment and they got only themselves to blame. But Prof Lewis had it coming as he continues to poke his nose into our affairs. What u make of his effort to get space in Somali websites so he can assert Somalia's dismemberment is the way to go? He sure got the fire in the belly

Originally posted by Try_Me: Hey brothas, A friend of mine said to me something that literally made me smile and hope that my brothas feel the same.. so do you guys feel the same way too :rolleyes: ? "If I meet the personal needs of a woman I blv that I have fulfilled a responsibility towards my country"..... NO

I appreciate this post Jamaal_11. I've read Charles Mackay's madness of crowds and there is e-version of the book on the net somewhere if anyone is interested. Very good read. Many thanks again.

Che we are on the same page then.

Originally posted by LANDER: Baashi, you are right in the sens that this entire colonial history and how it plays into present geo-political realities, is a long subject I do not want to elaborate on at the time. Maybe another time. That will do! Stay away then from this cuz this old colonial officer is on just that subject: history and geopolitics. For starters geopolitics is combination of geographic and political factors relating to or influencing a nation or region.

Innaa Lilaahi waa innaa Ileyhi raajicuun. Alla yarxama marxuumka ehaladiisiina Ilaahey samir iyo iimaan ha ka siiyo.

Lander, I don’t wanna get into this “protectorate” thing as that is how the colonizers justify the imposition of the external force in the societies they want to exploit. If you want to swallow that you might also want to buy that America is “liberator” and Palestinians are “terrorist”. There is something you ought to pay attention to in the professor Lewis' piece and that is before the Britain’s arrival, Somalis consisted loosely affiliated tribal communities with no formal authority. Somaliland was just a political creation intended to expedite British interest in Asia. In any event, today the residents of that corner of Somalia particularly the resident in anti-secessionist regions are not obligated, in any way or form, to observe the defunct colonial borders. Why? Because they are free to determine their future and Britain is not here to object their wishes. Walaal that is the crux of the matter.

Somali 41 % (12 nomads for it) English 59% (17 nomads for it) I took a note! I of course voted for Somali and yet I'm writing in English what's wrong with this picture...add that my ESL is not up to par War kale yaan idiin sheegayaa waxaad ka eegtaan dhanka kale. Sida aan u aqaan ama Illaaheey ii baray luqada af Soomaaliaga xubnaha nagula sheekeysta halakan uma wada yaqaanaan. Sidaa aawadeed waxey ila tahey in tixgelin aawadeed loo isticmaalo af Ingiriiska. Sida D&D tidhi hal leysku wado. Geel-Jire yaa hada ka hor dood ceyn kan oo kale ah soo bandhigey. Halkaa ka sii botoriya!

MMA, amico mia SYL had it easy back then when one considers the challenges we face today. The wind of independence were a force to reckon with everywhere, the new imperial powers Soviet and US were willing to take a calculated risk so they can push over the old powers aside and put the new independent states in their column, UN had then became a hub to air the grievances of the subjugated indigenous activists, Somalis were chanting in unison Waxa aan la ooyaayaa, ilmadu iiga qubaneysaa, istikhyaar nin loo diidoo, la adoonsadaan aheyee - moving words indeed, etc. The brave and honorable youth of SYL were operating in this context. The foe was known: white Europeans and less formidable Habasha. The goal was clear-cut: independence by any means necessary. Today we find ourselves in very different context. The independence they fought and many died for had become a curse in a strange and ironic way. Leaders of the newly found state had betrayed the unsuspecting masses by making the highest office like a private business owned by them. Nepotism had become a norm; justice needed a political support, etc. Somalis today as you put it are inventive, business entrepreneurs, but clan conscious. They mistrust any political deliberation without their clan being the chairman of the proceeding. They kill for revenge, for pride, honor all in the name of their sub clan. Never again is the motto because the manner in which previous regimes managed the public turf. To institute a new paradigm one must realize what we one is up against. FYI I’ve seen students, youths congregating in a meetings to make a difference someway or another just to see their effort evaporating in front of their eyes because someone decided to exploit this wound by scratching it. Dawaco, Jamaal, MMA, Vanquish_V12, Che, and OG-Girl what to do is a billion dollar question and out of box idea is what’s needed here if we are to find our way out of this mess. Practical ideas that is.

The New Breed of Islam Bashers 3/27/2004 - Political - Article Ref: IV0403-2260 Number of comments: 59 Opinion Summary: Agree:45 Disagree:4 Neutral:10 By: Nahal Ameri Iviews* - There is a new breed of Islam bashers that were at one point part of the Muslim community itself. Muslims already have to contend with people like Daniel Pipes making statements such as "Western European societies are unprepared for the massive immigration of brown-skinned peoples cooking strange foods and maintaining different standards of hygiene ... All immigrants bring exotic customs and attitudes, but Muslim customs are more troublesome than most". Now beyond Daniel Pipes, Muslims are seeing a new stream of attacks against their faith by individuals that were born Muslim and being promoted by media. These particular bashers have chosen to take on the literary world with recent publications by Canadian Journalist Irshad Manji and Ohio based author Ibn Warraq. Mr. Warraq, a self proclaimed former Muslim has authored four books in recent years that promote anti-Islamic rhetoric by citing incorrect traditions of the Prophet Muhammad and citing Quranic verses out of context. In his book Why I am Not a Muslim, he states "People generally convert to Islam only in terror, quest for power, or to avoid heavy taxation, or to escape humiliation, or because of infatuation with a Muslim woman." A funny statement to make in the United States where many people have converted to Islam without terror. Becoming a Muslim may grant a person a considerable amount of struggle but not power. First time Muslim author, Manji has been receiving mass media attention for her book, the Trouble with Islam. It has been reviewed by over thirty prominent United States newspapers and magazines and become a best seller in the United States and Canada. It's contents are an open letter to Muslims and Non-Muslims on why Islam needs to be reformed. In one section she writes, "First and foremost, being self-critical means coming clean about the nasty side of the Koran, and how it informs terrorism." She fails however to point out where in the Koran terrorism is mentioned. Although I completely respect freedom of speech, I must ask what is the point of all of this? Do these Muslim bashers want us all to convert out of Islam? Do they want the whole world to hate Islam? The answer in my view is that they want Muslims and the rest of humanity to renounce the religion and in their delusion hope to extinguish the light of Islam from the world. Muslims are used to attacks by non-Muslims but with people like Manji, and Warraq it is different because it is completely hypocritical. They would like to be respected for leaving Islam or in Manji's case "reforming Islam", but they refuse to give the same respect to Muslims to practice their faith as they choose, without the constant condemnation and criticism. These authors state that they should be given the right to interpret religion as they wish yet; they criticize Muslims for practicing their religion as they want to. The bottom line is tolerance is a two way street, and there should be tolerance for those who choose to practice religion and those who do not. The abandonment of tolerance will only lead to hatred and crime. The FBI reports that hate crimes against people who appear to be Muslim increased more than 1,500 percent in 2001. As a staff member of a Muslim non-profit organization I receive daily hate emails that contain profanity towards Muslims and Allah, which is simply the Arabic word for God. It has become the norm and acceptable by society to stigmatize Muslims as it was at one time, to stigmatize African Americans and Jews. Most immigrant Muslims came to America to pursue a better life for themselves and their children. Freedom of religion is part of that better life. One must wonder the motive of these new Islam bashers. Are they just trying to make a quick buck or do they simply want to annihilate Islam. Either way, the bigotry needs to stop because it might just be another book on the shelves to most Americans but to Muslims, these books threaten their identity in a society that prides it self in tolerance and pluralism. Nahal Ameri is the Community Relations Director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council

Another good Professor, a foreigner, doing the bidding for the secessionist. Note the classic use of the word "protection" to disguise the colonialism. Don't forget he is a well known Orientalist. --------------------------------------------- As the Kenyan Somali ‘Peace' Conference falls apart in confusion, Recognition of Somaliland's Independence is overdue By I.M. Lewis FBA Emeritus Professor of Anthropology London School of Economics From colonial partition to post-colonial revolution ‘ Somaliland ' came into being as a British Protectorate in the late 19 th century, as treaties of ‘protection' were signed with the local Somali clans. Britain had, at this time, two primary objectives in the Horn: first to safeguard the supply of Somali mutton for its recently established garrison at Aden , and secondly in the European scramble for control of this region, following the Egyptian withdrawal, to keep the French out! With claims of the untold riches of the region, the famous English explorer Richard Burton had long tried to persuade his government to establish a proper colony in Somaliland . But HMG did not share Burton 's optimistic enthusiasm for this project. Indeed, British reluctance from the outset bred a tradition of colonial parsimony and neglect that dominated British policy virtually throughout Somaliland 's existence. The saving grace was the integrity and energy of many of the expatriate British officials, who later came to serve there. Read on...

Yes. And get this! that just got me started and I felt driven to prove manhood by ahem! doing what I must not reveal here and when I finally conquered her heart it wasn't about love...it was all about machismo. I was inspired by the nomadic proverb naago diidey loogama hadho. The perception is that an unrelenting persistence (short from stalking) in the face of rejection shows admiration and commitment. Oh! boy trust me they will swallow their pride and recant all that had transpired In 20/20 hindsight I now understand why men are called dogs. Ladies take it from me, being humble is a quality u can't beat. This way u can catch more bees and u still can perform the process of elimination by adopting TRUST but VERIFY attitude. As an old school, I felt obligated to give that advice.

Somalia is a predominantly Muslim country, and Unicef praised Islamic leaders in that nation for being a "major force" behind immunisation campaigns. Job well done...I'm glad to hear Islamic leaders are not blamed for failure...a rare occasion indeed.

Che sxb you have been calling a revolution for quite sometimes. Given the state of the country, how you suppose this revolution is going to take effect? OG_Girl, sis "we" have to do something that I concur. But what is this "something" that you suggest we should do?

^Many thanks sade it was a good read. Keep them coming sis. ------------------- Here is a piece from the Islamicity. Grandfather's Wisdom 3/26/2004 - Social Religious Family - Article Ref: IC0403-2259 Number of comments: 41 By: Mir Mahmood Ali IslamiCity* - Play fair in sports, as well as in all worldly matters. Justice is the cardinal law in Islam Share every thing with others --- there is blissful joy in sharing and caring. Put things back where you found them, you will be happy to find it there when you need it. Clean your mess --- how awful it is, if others see our dirty stuff! Do not take things that are not yours, beware taking anything without permission is thieving. Say you are sorry when you hurt anybody, bodily or mentally. Allah does not like it when someone hurts another person. Do not forget to brush your teeth before you go to bed and take a bath every day. Do not forget your prayers. It helps us keep God in our hearts. Always greet elders and young ones with As Salaamu Alykum when you get up in the morning. Do some physical exercise in the morning before breakfast. Yoga exercise is simple and good. Shabby exterior gives a bad impression, when you dress up make sure your clothes and are clean and ironed. Flush the toilet after use. Clean the mess wherever you find it. Cleanliness is half of the faith. Choose some good hobby to spend your leisure hours. Why not book reading? You will never be alone with a book in your pocket. Unless you make a public commitment, your faith will not take hold. You can not be a private Muslim. Make sure people know you are a Muslim and always be a good example. Time is your friend. Don't kill it. The best way to destroy an enemy is make them your friend. Don't be liberal in making promises, when you make any fulfill it as a word of honor. Respect is a matter of give and take, as love begets love. Talk politely even in disagreement --- it is better to lose an argument than to lose a friend. Talk in even and low voice tones, whining and braying is a donkey's trait. Talking softly is a sign of being cultured. Always be humble. God does not like arrogance. Kindness is more important than wisdom, and the recognition of this is the beginning of wisdom. Do not say I cannot, say God willing I will try. If you have a will to do --- Allah will help you in your endeavor. It is better to have tried and lost, than not to have tried at all. You can accomplish anything under the sun, with determination followed by hard work. If you pray for anything pray for knowledge and wisdom. There is nothing that can defeat honesty and hard work. One who asks a question may be a fool for a minute, but one who does not ask is a fool forever. So don't be shy to ask. Take lesson from the candle ... which burns itself to give light to others, and banishes darkness. It is said "wise people talk less, eat less, and sleep less". Never eat anything unless you are hungry. And according to our Prophet when you do eat keep one third of your stomach for food, one third for water and one third empty. Oppression is the vilest manifestation of barbarism. Neither oppress anybody nor be oppressed. Any activity can be made creative by a dint of zeal and enthusiasm. It is through passion that people achieve success. Find your passion. Read, Understand and live your life by the Quran.

Samurai, I concur with Professor Abdi Samatar’s read on the tactics of the secessionist. But I must disagree with his take on what SYL had done on the question of the unification of all Somalis. His best friend Mr. Abdirizak H. Hussein, a former prime minister, spoke about this very question with Mr. Shiino on the Somali TV in Minneapolis. He asserted that the question was whom we could trust with our independence: a veto-wielding Britain or defeated fascist Italy. Despite the Britain’s promise to grant the unity of all Somalis under one country had we choose her for the 10 administrative yrs to prepare the country for self-rule, SYL instead decided to go with the weak and defeated Italy on the basis that Italy had no veto to postpone the date of the independence. It was a risk-taking proposition. And to paraphrase the former prime minister he said ushaada nimaad ka qaadan kartaa loo dhiibtaa. Therefore the good Professor had some checking to do on this fact before he start pointing fingers to secessionist camp. The reason being he is positioned to spearhead the anti-separatist camp and I for one don’t want him lose credibility or his ability to articulate the Somaliweyn stand compromised in any way. He is on the mark ...right on Mr. Abdi!

It seems the reconciliation talks have reached an impasse and despite the efforts of many, the warlords and the so-called leaders are unlikely to compromise and find a breakthrough out of this stalemate. Granted this is not a piece of cake, after all the challenges before the attendees are enormous: re-instituting a form of government that can accommodate the interest of the warlords and the foreign elements, institutionalizing power sharing scheme in which the current winners of the tribal wars are guaranteed a piece of the pie, redistributing the real state and other assets that somehow get exchanged hands during the civil war, etc. but as the old maxim had it if there is a will there is a way. Even though this is not the type of political arrangement we should endorse, we have no influence in these deliberations. If we fail this time there is a chance that Somalia will disintegrate into fiefdoms - fiefdoms that practice feudalism where the warlords and their business associates are the neo-aristocratic class. Northwest will likely get some sort of recognition not because the unilateral withdrawal from the Act of Union by the some of the concerned parties but because the lack of partner with whom they can negotiate with. Northeast will likely follow suit. Neighboring governments will likely be vigilant about their security and use that pretext to manage the fiefdom on their side of the border by proxy. Despite all of this, the so-called leaders who have been congregating in Nairobi have failed once again by squandering yet another opportunity. If I have to guess the reasons, I would definitely include negative tribalism, distrust, greed, winner-takes all mentality, and foreign hands. If this is not a blunder by first order I don’t know what it is. It pains me to see this reconciliation meeting in Nairobi end up like this. I’m very disappointed! What now? What should happen if this one in fact ends up unproductive as the previous ones? Where do we go from there? War bal ka taliya!

^ @ M_Deep's slogans. Speaking of slogans you should have heard the slogans against Kismayo aka Jubada Hoose team by Waqooyi Galbeed fans: Ku feedhe maqas ku feedhe, fargeeto timo fargeeto... and this is done in a chorus with a nice melody to it. Oh boy! Sanweyntu qaadi meyso, sabaax la saari maayo...

If men who are interested in u are decent men, If you have cynical view of men in general, If you turn them down with no reason at all, If the fact that you are a wonderful chick and men especially friends who have the chance to know you can’t help but ask you out is the biggest mistake your male friends can commit. Then Runawaw_Virgin, you got it...you have a problem . Could it be you are moody, temperamental, or paranoid? You have a reason but just you are not sharing with us! Advice: Say no for a reason.

Ahem! So where u at S_S?

Originally posted by LANDER: Baashi, I have no interest in wasting my time replying to your non-sense as you probably like to argue for the sake of arguing. What the stubborn naive Idealist like you have to understand is that Somaliland has not/will not be held hostage by other somalis PERIOD. non-sense, stubborn, naive, idealist, etc. What other names do u have for those who simply oppose the Northwest secession? Or you simply can't take my guts to take on the separatists I like Somaliweyn label better as I'm a believer in its tenents. I know as things stand now it is very difficult to see beyond the issues of the day TNG, PL, SL, RRA, and their drive to get the lion share of the future power sharing scheme. Anyone who think this principle has no merit plz do make the case. And don't come on across the screen as angry, uncollected as my boy LANDER. It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong. ~ Voltaire