Would the Turkey elite get the message this time?

^way to go Mr. Abdi

Originally posted by Mr E-yes: sala calaa nabi! forget it, I'm sick of this tribal ranting Amin to that

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool@raula and nuune. Dhuubo teesarahaas ma soconaayo qofyahay Laakiin sidaadaanba kugu cunaa Hade ma waxaad i leedahay waa lagu qaabilaa Shirka waa xiran yahay :cool: ****start doing push-ups...one, two, three, neef-tuur kicks in...collapses dang!**** Aawe Rainbow, Jamaal bal aan la yara tashadee xaalku waa dhow yahay hadde e

QL, Your observations are correct to some extent. We had two distinct systems of governance so far. Both were secular: democracy and socialism. Both didn’t work because of the “negative†tribalism (negative tribalism is basically a collective state of mind or consciousness in which people believe their primary duty and loyalty is to the clan). Both were alien and diametrically opposite to the dominant indigenous tribal system, that majority of Somalis are known to have as a way of life. Imposition of alien and secular socio-political system on these unique tribal communities that are egalitarian in their political orientation, Muslims in faith, communal and pastoral in their social and economical outlook had profound and lasting effect on Somali psychic. Average Somali’s conception of the state reflects deep-rooted misconception of the actual function of the government. Yes, we do have a system of governance, an indigenous one but it falls short and many ways incompatible with the modern conception of what the system of governance entails. Reconciling the ever-present clan allegiance that most Somalis subscribe to with the legal structure and formal institutions of society in providing much of the cohesiveness and order necessary for the existence of the modern nation-state proved to be a tall order. It is not surprising to me that folks in Nairobi seemed to get along with the naked tribalism “4.5†formula as a political reference point where government and its magnificent formal institutions are formed around. I agree with Rahima. She is right on the money! But we have to understand that even though Somalis are Muslims in faith they nevertheless are “lay†Muslims. Anyone who wishes to see Islamic state in Somalia has to accept gradual step-by-step reintroduction of Islam as a viable political system. If I had my way today, I would have insisted on a political environment that allows freedom for the active campaign I have in mind to take place. Once that is achieved, the self-evident truths and beauty of Islamic justice would flourish right in front of whoever is in power at the time. Once the population becomes receptive to the dictates of Islam then it would be easy to impose Islam through the ballot. I’m ardent believer of the saying: Lots of times you have to pretend to join a parade in which you're not really interested in order to get where you're going.

Doqoni meel lagu dirirey ogeyd ee meel lagu heshiiyey ma oga By the speaker of the house Mudane Muraad. Words of wisdom indeed

LANDER, Where are u sxb. Where do that last two posts figure in the spectrum my dear friend Illaahaan kugu dhaarshey e? Does Rush Limbough come to mind?

Another heart-broken singer!, expressing his sorrow for commitment not kept by his love - pleading for change of heart in his favor. Jaceyl kala awood weyne, Kii iilka dhigey Qeys, Leylana ag seexshaa, Anna igu abuurmee. Oogaduu ku faafoo, Diidey inan adkeystee, Ii kaa asqeeyoo, Igu kaa eryaayoo. Imisaa adoo kale, Arji iila timidoo, Oofin maayo aan idhi, Aawadaa u joojee. Wadnahey ololayee, I dhigo abaaloo, Arrinteyda meel mari. ************************** Axdi beena lama galo, Wacad lama ilaabo, Ruuxii ku aamina, Lagama indhasaabtee. Afar sanno iyo dheeraad, Arrimahaan dhiseynee, Aan is idhi idlaade, Sow addigan irdheeyey. Imisaa adoo kale, Arji iila timidoo, Oofin maayo aan idhi, Aawadaa u joojee. Wadnahey ololayee, I dhigo abaaloo, Arrinteyda meel mari.

LANDER, I can see where you are coming from and yes unionist can be described as conservative leaning bunch of nationalists . But common sxb Bush and Co. are radicals, a different breed altogether. After all, there is a reason why a prefix is added to the traditional conservative party in order to highlight how radical these fellas are hence the name neo-con. They are bunch of Judeo-Christians hawks with unparalleled firepower and cash at their disposal. Speaking of hawks, you are a text example of Somalilander hawk or should I say “pro-secessionist†hawk . Man! I was frightened when you declared (in this site) war on us with 50K strong army of “duriyada†to capture Sool/E. Sanaag/Hawd territories. I fled from SOL running for my life... On a serious note, the secessionist proponents are radical in their approach to attain the goal. Even though pro-unionists are the ones who are trying to keep the State intact and preserve the territorial integrity of the country (conservative political stand), they are for gradual, limited, or well-established procedures to affect changes in order to accommodate (appease) the secessionist. Assertions have been made by some of the secessionists in this site that anyone who oppose the dismemberment of Somalia do so out of hate. That kind of mindset doesn’t even qualify radical label...that is dogmatic. As to my political affiliations in the American politics, I am independent. Ayoub, I give you two points. Bravo! You have successfully punctured holes in Somaliweyn’s case when is made on the premise of Islamic principles. Now let me repair the wounded vessel on whose back I’ve been riding for so long. I knew all along sooner or later with this constant barrage of punches, arrows, artillery fire from the determinant and passionate secessionists are aiming at my ‘daabad†will hurt it . But, hold your horses there! you are not out of the woods yet. Granted Somaliweyn as a foreign policy had never advocated the plight of Muslims in Ethiopia, Djibouti, or Kenya. It used to advocate the plight of Somalis when Somalia was a functioning state. The reason being Somaliweyn policy was conceived by nationalists not Islamists. But we are not talking about Somaliweyn as a foreign policy of Somali Democratic Republic, are we? At issue is whether Islamic country ravaged by civil war and surrounded by traditional enemies should be dismembered on the basis of what European power colonized what corner of this now independent but chaotic country. Looking from different angle, the question can be framed this way: is it Islamic to insist on breaking Muslim nation, in this case Somalia (a unity attained), just because Britain had once upon time colonized one part before the unity attained. By the way, as of tactical strategy, would you go after what you can accomplish and within your reach or would you rather declare a war in which you can’t win and draw a fire from every conceivable corner. You know damn well that Islamists’ struggle is within national boundries because of the imposition of international order in the way of independent states and seemingly overwhelming power in the hands of Western states that have power to sanction the freedom-fighters and declare their country rogue nation at will. Ngonge, didn't I tell u the utility of repeating urself....again redundancy is the name of this game. How about a repeat of that story about ceesaanta

Agreeing to differ 9/9/2004 - Social Religious Family - Article Ref: IC0409-2442 Number of comments: 9 Opinion Summary: Agree:9 Disagree:0 Neutral:0 By: Sadullah Khan IslamiCity* - With respect to the perception of truth, disagreement is an ancient phenomenon in the intellectual history of mankind. The belief that Truth is one does not detract from the possibility that how it is arrived at is a matter open to everyone, each to pursue within his or her social and intellectual means. This pursuit however, should not be to serve selfish or particularistic ends. We must take cognizance of the fact that our intellectual life is based on an exchange of opinions, ideas that vary and often reflect distinct cultural, sociological, psychological and intellectual influences. This diversity surely leads to differences in perspective, differences in understanding and naturally to some disagreement. Differences of opinion are inevitable wherever people possess intellect and honesty. Accepting differences When analyzing our history, it appears obvious that advanced and intellectually 'honest societies were able to profit from disagreement precisely because diversity fosters variety and thus a myriad of potentialities. Civilized individuals respect other people and therefore have the tendency to respect the opinions of others. Those who are ethically impoverished, emotionally overcharged and intellectually barren, have an inclination to be so dogmatic as to use differences of opinion as a barrier between themselves and others with whom they differ, often leading to disputes that cause disrespect for others and of others. It is only gross ignorance and egoism that leads any person to blasphemously believe that there is no room for disputing his or her opinion. It is unfortunate that this inability to accept and respect other people's opinion is so deep rooted in our socio-political environment that it is often considered part of religiosity. Many religious leaders, organizations and institutions seem not to have rid themselves of that destructive and predictable legacy of desiring to be contentious rather than conciliatory. Moderation Balance and moderation are not only supposed to be inherent characteristics of true Believers, they are fundamental landmarks of Islam. Allah says: "Thus have We made you an Ummah justly balanced, that you may be a testimony to the world community". (2:143 Quran) The lack of moderation often manifests itself through harshness in treatment of people, arrogance in attitude, roughness in manner and crudeness in expression. The communicative method of those who are immoderate tends to be abusive, always criticizing, sermonizing or even berating others well past the point of legitimate communication and disregarding the moral obligation of respect. Their communication transgresses a reasonable attempt to inform or even persuade -- it becomes a harangue. It is as if the speaker is engaged in a campaign to beat those, who differ with him into submission rather than simply convey a point of view, pummeling them with repetitive opinion, complaints or demands. And if the desired response is not given the speaker simply restates the point more loudly or aggressively. Telling one of these ardently opinionated people that their position has been heard, understood and considered, rarely stops the onslaught. The only way such people will believe that their point is understood is if everyone agrees with it. They can become so self-righteous that they truly believe disagreement with them is proof of confusion, ignorance, ********* , treachery, hypocrisy or even kufr. It is one thing to assert the primacy of universal virtues like goodness and justice; it is quite another to exclusively claim the cloak of universal truth on opinions dealing with matters on which knowledgeable people disagree. Differing as Muslims in an un-Islamic manner The Qur'an has declared the followers of Prophet Muhammad as Ummatan Waahidah (single global community), as Ikhwa (a fraternity); and has distinctly warned against infighting (8:46 Quran). It is ironic that the present-day Muslim society often manifests the very antithesis of these descriptions and pays no heed to this warning. The vast majority of our internal battles are as a consequence of dogmatism and narrowly defined self interests. We have made that universal and ever relevant Islam a source and cause of major conflicts and infighting over insignificant issues and turning minor points of jurisprudence into major ideological conflicts. Sadly, all of this is in the holy name of Islam. Betraying a noble tradition The Mujtahideen (experts in Islamic Law) differed and disagreed yet maintained a high regard for one another Imam Abu Hanifah said, "If it were not for the two years that I accompanied Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq, I would have perished." These exemplary scholars were neither self-righteous nor dogmatic. When the Abbasid Caliph al-Mansur expressed his intention of attaching Imam Malik's Al-Muwatta to the Ka'bah and obliging people to follow it, Imam Malik himself opposed the idea saying people in different parts of the Muslim world may have received differering information. He urged the Ca1iph al-Mansur to leave people to follow in accordance with the knowledge they had received and not to narrow down nor to limit that which Allah and His Messenger have left without bounds. Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal pleaded, "Do not follow me nor Malik nor Shafi'i nor Awzaai nor Thawri, rather take from the source (Qur'an and Sunnah) from which we have taken." The great jurist Imam Shafi'i is reported to have said: "I never argue with anyone without praying that Allah may put the truth on the tongue of that person." He also said: "My opinion is correct but the possibility of error exists." The differing opinions of great scholars and those well-versed help to illuminate the multi-dimensions of an issue and varying interpretations bring about a degree of flexibility that the law requires to meet the needs demanded by the vicissitudes of ever-changing times. Etiquette and social interest Problems usually arise due to four main reasons: 1. People overstate their differences. 2. They attribute to themselves a degree of infallibility and consider their opinion to be the ultimate view, almost as if God's revelation is merely a substantiation of their perspective. 3. Vested interests that cause people to undermine others (particularly those who are more successful than themselves or to deflect criticism of their own shortcomings). 4. When groups become excessively partisan to one opinion over another. As Muslims we need to realize that differing does not necessarily imply opposing; that within the broad spectrum of shared knowledge and difference of opinion there is also the uniting factor of mutual respect and the greater interest of the community. And Allah knows best. Sadullah Khan is the Director of Islamic Center of Irvine. He has presented lectures on Islamic Civilization at California State University at Dominguez Hills. He is a frequent lecturer for the Academy of Judaic, Christian and Islamic Studies at UCLA (University of California, Los Angeles). He is also an advisor to the Chancellor's Committee on Religion Ethics and Values at UCLA and serves as Director of Muslim Affairs at USC (University of Southern California). You can watch his lectures on Empowerment at IslamiTV http://www.islamicity.com/articles/articles.asp?ref=IC0409-2442&p=2

Let me add my taano to this interesting exchange! It looks like that admins./moderators have made up their mind on the subject. I can’t help but smile about the notion that Somali writers on Somali Online Forums are having a degenerative effect on the quality of the site. I sympathize with the folks who don’t read/write Somali language. Their predicament is understandable and one would expect that nomads who can read/write English would write in English so other nomads whom one is addressing can understand what’s posted. It is a common courtesy! Having said that it will be interesting to see how the admins’ new rules are enforced. Are they going to take a disciplinary action against nomads in the event someone writes his/her post in Somali in other forums designated for English speakers? How does that make them look? Progressive Somali website whose aims include giving nomads their piece of the net have rules that limit the said demographic to only one section! And this constraint is imposed to protect the quality of the site! We’ll see how this works out. Good, I hope.

Qudhac, Your arrogance knows no bound my friend Kowneyn, I've been doing just that since I started posting on these boards.

Much better but I'm afraid it is not enough. Show her sincerity and don't compound the situation. Address her as a person not as "women" or "child". Swallow your pride one more time and take the higher road. Send a pm this time if that's what it takes to remedy the problem.

C'mon don't let me down son

Waryaa Dude, Isku xishood son. Dumarka lalama tirsado. An apology is in order. Be a man! go ahead I know you can do it. Qudhac, Where did I go wrong bro. Words on the screen as Ngonge used to say, that's all they are. There is no harm in saying "they" to refer to the "pro-secessionist". FYI the pro-secessionist is not a "dirty" word. It inly refers to those who would love to see Somaliland to be an independent country. I disagree on the premise that some can make that monumental decision for all in that corner of the former British colony. Don't be like the republicans and the neo-cons here in America. They are so far right in the political spectrum that they shun all the analysis and political debate. Anyone who dares to question what they percieve is "right" is doing so because they hate "freedom". Relax bro, ease up, and let it slide...and don't read into too much of what I wrote up there. I hope I make sense and if I don't in your eyes then give me the benefit of the doubt.

Rahima, You’ve made an excellent point abaayo. Even though “they†the pro-secessionists want to apply selective reasoning and revisionist history to the subject at hand, you have managed to step back and see the big picture. Nevertheless, you seem to be giving contradicting signals. On the one hand, you seem to be at ease with the dismemberment of this poor, war-ravaged, backward, and semi-desert country. On the other hand, you have dismissed the secession as un-Islamic. It doesn’t add up! I see you have taken a refuge under the shades of the branches of weakness in that big tree of desperation. Be bold and make a firm and unshakable stand in this cyber room. Yes you have no power to make a difference, but you do have voice to opine what you know is right. You are knowingly and willingly lending your voice with what you said is un-Islamic. Stand by pro-union/Islamist qallanjo! Ngonge, In fairness, Ngonge have made some good points. I disagree on the conclusions he drew from the election results and the importance he seems to attach them. For these elections were held in parts of the old British Somaliland domain. Once the results were in, they were interpreted as if all the residents of former British Somaliland are for the secession. Majority vs. minority designation do not apply here since residents there are Somali citizens for all they know. Xoogsade, Sxb remember that "Perpetual optimism is a force multiplierâ€. I say desperation talk is no use . You seem to understand the fundamentals of the discussion yet you lack the strength to say what you believe in deep inside. You managed to say I support secession even though you've admitted that you think it is a wrong move. :confused:

Alle-ubaahane and Discreet, God bless Google Sophist, I wasn't serious! Only respondent to this thread is on the list.

Qabyaalad Watch Institute Organizational Status: Independent institute, founded in 2004 in SOL cyber village, Earth. Background/Scope: Qabyaalad Watch was formed to .... Qabyaalad Watch is guided by the belief that .... Qabyaalad Watch works with and through the nonprofit sector because of its vital place in communities and because of the organization's faith that the Diaspora can play a powerful role in revitalizing the nation's... Qabyaalad Watch concentrates on several main areas: .... Areas of Research: Social issues, political issues, environment and natural resources, communications and information, health and welfare. Geographic Focus: Domestic. Funding Sources: Foundations (?%), technical assistance, project research (?%), sales of publications (?%). Budget (2005): USD ?. Staff: 10 ( 10 male, 0 female ), including 9 research and 1 administrative. Executive Officers: Sophist (Executive Director) Chief Resreachers: (sexist leaning dept. ) Ngonge (Policy Analyst) Caaqil (Policy Analyst) Alle-ubaahane (Manager, Community Education Center) Zeylici (Public Affairs Liaison) Rudy (Project Coordinator) Caano Geel (Coordinator) Waaq (Policy Analyst) Discreet1 (Researcher) Viking (Researcher) Research Findings: Some recent titles include: Metamorphosis: Changing the thinking of the “Somali intellectual†Periodicals: The Anarchist Watch (Somali/English, quarterly, subscription)

^Waa i kanaa annigoo careysan oo aadan maleyn karin waxa aan maaganahay :mad: Awoowe warkuba igu ciririq weeyaan! Marka ugu horeysa ilmo BARO see baad damacdeen? Ma idinkaa (wadar) RAULA wada raba oo damac baa idinka (wadar) haya? Mise midkiin baa issagu gaar u jantay oo qallanjada doonaya? Halkee bay iska qaban la'dahay? Warqada wiilakan (feebaro) wax ku doonaya see wax ka yihiin? Waqtigan miyaa calaacal iyo wadnaha iyo halbowlaha dhiigiisa oo laga sheekayo dumar lagu helaa? War maxaad ii keentay Sxb,warqad dheer annigu wax kuma doono ee afkeygaan ku kalaamaa Raula, Dhuubo see ahaan waayee Ragga ha isku leyn dee qofyahay Mise waan tashadaa oo sidii inna rag yeeli jidhey baan yeelaa oo inta dib wax u ilaaleeyo yaan hablahaa wada cudoon mid ka mida yaan bustaha iyo ubbada ag dhigtaa? Hadaan la i qaabilin hadda xaalka waan iska tagayaa oo bajaq kale aan raadsanaa...calaa caleyk ka badanna ma dhahaayi

Sophist, You are hired

Now the Memorial Day long wkend is over, I'm back to argue, argue, argue, argue...and argue more till some of u curse me Nah! We can disagree on this issue. I must thank NGONGE and others of their calm and their understanding...well done. Btw, NGONGE I'm getting ready to dress up like a salesman and knock your "pm" doors to sell the "pro-unity" view. This time I will present new ideas that u can't turn down. Originally posted by NGONGE: Never mind, since Baashi (and I assume others too) elected you to be their spokesperson, I might as well direct my reply to you. :confused: LANDER, I don't live in OH but yeah I'm working on...actually working very hard by posting articles (about the importance of US politics) on SOL. Wish me luck

I welcome this press statement. This is their first position and it is indicative of the willingness to sit down with the rest and make some deals. If you read between the lines they are aiming at the personalities who claim to be from the SL. In essence, they seem to be saying don't talk to them...talk to us as a country Yes we will talk as Somalis from different tribes will be the answer and after some real politik we meet half way. It is all good

I have always advised others to be wary of giving uncritical support to the secession drive. Do I understand why some might feel passionate about this secession talk? Yes I do. I understand that it has something to do with the way past leadership managed the country. It also has to do with grievances and the sense of betrayal felt by most Somalis. It also has to do with negative tribalism and its ripple effect in the nomadic politik. Nevertheless I am dead against the secession for a reason. Xoogsade I agree in part as to how the unity talk translates, for some, to domination and how it brings back bitter history. But brother if I understand you correctly you seem to be saying that you would like to see the country not dismembered and the only reason you reluctantly support the secession and separation is to save us from “bloodletting and creating more animosity again†since there are diehards (majority) who intend to keep the new Somaliland. My question to you is how are you going to avoid the “bloodletting†if parts of what separatist call Somaliland call themselves Puntland and vow to keep their regions as part of Somalia. Wouldn’t it be better if we try to see both sides of the coin to understand the reality on the ground? If we do that we would realize that no matter where you stand on this divide (pro-unity vs. pro-secession), bloodletting is inevitable unless a deal is made. What kind of deal that suits to both sides' interest is negotiable and that’s what exactly is going to happen. Now Ngonge, You asked what happens next? I assume you mean when this show in Nairobi ends and gets some sort of legitimacy from the powers that matter (US and EU). If that is what you meant, then I don’t know, as I don’t have a crystal ball. I think there will be a compromise between the leadership of the both sides and the new TNG will have the legitimacy leverage as stick and regional autonomy under the federal arrangement as a carrot on the table. You and all those who embraced this new identity will be disappointed by non other than your cureent leadership. As to the sell it to me challenge, I’m afraid I won’t be successful in doing that as I know you have already dug a hole for yourself to wave the flag instead of staying away this "pointless" argument . And look at u now...you are in a defensive posture ready to strike each and every logical and rational salvo I send to your way . So why bother when repeating and hammering will do wonders and keep the SOL admin happy as it increases the traffic of their site. I feel sorry those who take this too seriously as if we have any power to influence the outcome of this delicate nomadic politics that give credence to the lineal segmentation and its relative political importance.

Xoogsade is a “girlyman†to quote Arnold. Fellas I’ve been there and done that, and I can assure you that this event is life-altering experience. I didn’t want to go in there (I have my own reasons and no I’m not afraid of blood) but my poor wife screams made me do it. Every time she calls Alla hooyooy, Baashiyoow, I would go in and the scissor-wielding doc and her nurse would assure me that everything is all right. The doc had it and she protested that my running in and out of the room as a distraction and the damn doc said we can use one person...why don’t you stay and hold her hands Baashi. For five excruciating hours, bush now, take deep breath and push it hard ritual, the scream, the crying, the wrestling exercise (her hands were all mine to control), I start begging her to let doc administer the drug (despite the side effects) I just wanted to get outta there...she refused. Finally, with lil cooperation of Baashi Jr., it was all over. No c-section, no other complication...wait both my hands sustained three deep punctures as result of her nails making their way into my flesh as she tried to get a grip for the push that delivered the Jr. out of her body. If that was not enough the doc wanted me to cut the cord and before I knew it, the scissor was handed to me...I had to do it. Doc and the nurses all smiled... My advice to you is do as she wishes and don’t turn her down if you being by her side makes her feel better. Yes, you are powerless in there and yes you feel helpless but still your presence matters to some. Be there for her if you can or convince her of why you don’t wanna be there before the real thing happens. The morning before that memorable night, I moved earth and heaven to talk to her out of wanting me being in that room when the real thing starts kicking. It worked but the Alla hooyooy thing and the damn doc changed the whole thing. No regrets though.

Xarago, Waxay u badan tahay in khilaaf iyo is-jiidku meeshiis laga miisi doona hadii Corneylku wax soo waayo. Abaayo waxaad fahantaa in dadkeenaa halka ku doodayaa aaney waxba gacanta ugu jidhin. Kolay PL waxaa ku hor kaadsha ninkaa Inna Yusuf la leeyahay sidiisana dadka lamaba tashado hadii ra'yi lagu siyaadiin lahaana dadka ma wada dhagetso ee in yar oo sacabka u tunta yuu la kalaamaa. Marka sidii ay la noqoto yey u badan tahay in lagu dhaqaaqo. Mida kale, annigu ra'yigeyga iyo sidey ila tahay yaan wax u cabirayaa oo cidna ma matalo. Inta badan kaftan dhable yaan fikradeyda ku dhiibtaa. Hadde waxii ka danbeeyaa abaayo Baashi ahaan ii la hadal oo ha ii addressgareen qof qareen u ha PL. Annigu waxa aan aaminsanahay waa midnimo. Waayadan danbe wax lagu qoslo yey noqotay waana fahmi karaa sababta saa ka dhigtay. Marka dooda Somaliweyn anniga yaa kaa qancineya hadii mad-madow kaaga jiro. Sideedana ma ahan in hadii aad fikir aamin san tahay in macnaheedu yahay in aad neceb tahay kuwa aan kula wadaagin ra'yigaaga. Wabilaahi towfiiq.