islam is facing a foe it hasn't faced in its 1400 yrs of existence and that is MODERNITY. its ill equipped to deal with the modern world; no work ethic, no independent thought is encouraged but inflexible conformity to dogmas. the rest of the world is rapidly pulling away and muslim societies are falling ever more into decay and stagnation, they are at the bottom of the heap. Everywhere despised, mistrusted and looked down upon. all they are reduced to is boasting of medieval glories to massage their bruised egos. they don't understand that the arrow of time always moves forward and to succeed you must change with the times.

There are still lots of peoples, cultures and countries that are ignorant or indifferent towards this ideology because their not in the front lines of terror today but it will eventually reach them because jihad is an open ended aggression against the whole world. a critical mass is being approached slowly.

Yeah, somebody tell them they can't extinguish the flame of tolerance and liberty however much they scream like deranged beasts.

Listen to this sheikh if you know arabic and see the context for jizya: its about cutting necks and humiliating unbelievers. what a thuggish lifestyle and they wonder why people hate and mistrust them. soon the whole world will be on one side against this enemies of humanity.

dp

DoctorKenney;971024 wrote: Your definitions of what's acceptable and whats not is warped to begin with, so spare me your personal opinion of why you think Jizyah is wrong. And your news stories have no relevance to this at all, as I can easily just say (and rightfully so) that no Muslim country truly practices Sharia Law, so your example of Iraq is not worth mentioning. Anyone remotely familiar with Islamic Law would say the same thing. How are my definitions of what is acceptable warped ?!, if the non muslims decided to be vindictive and petty like the muslims, what will come of you in the west ?. muslims will only understand when they get a taste of their own medicine, as their too thick and self righteous to reason. Dismiss my evidence but its a clear testament to the heartlessness and injustice of the jizya system you call reasonable and humane. if sharia law is truly applied, things get truly barbaric and horrific quickly as we have seen under Taliban controlled afghanistan and shabaab ruled somalia. don't even go there. DoctorKenney;971024 Again, the tax is very light and poor people are exempt from paying it. And you keep mentioning that Non-Muslims are to be killed if they openly refuse to pay the Tax, as if you want us to ignore the very serious crime of tax evasion . And you completely ignored my example of the "Ridda Wars", where the Caliph Abu Bakr went to war against those Muslims who didn't pay their taxes. Its pointless discussing this very simple point with you and you seem to either be extremely slow or deliberately ignore what I've posted. [/quote wrote: I don't care about its lightness, we are discussing the unfairness of the Jizya itself. why are non muslims only killed for tax evasion if we take your absurd justification seriously. ridda wars was one special occasion and there is no call for Muslims to be fought if they don't pay zaka, its a charity. your playing gymnastics my friend, that point has been debunked by another poster.

DoctorKenney;970977 wrote: Did I not already give you evidence directly from the Hadiths that the Jizyah tax be light, that it be taken with gentleness and respect, and that the Non-Muslim Dhimmis be treated with courtesy? And did I not provide you with the link which explores the issue in even greater detail? What is the point of repeating the same points over and over? You can't some Muslim writers and then expect their words to hold more credibility than the words of the Prophet himself and the 4 Righteous Caliphs. It accomplishes nothing at all. Here is the link again: http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/the_status_of_non_muslims_in_the_islamic_state I provided quran commentary, the highest Islamic source, not some Muslim writer as you say. That link you gave is sugarcoating the issue for western audiences just like you are, do you seriously think he would provide honest, impartial answers. your assertion that dhimmis are to be treated with respect and gentleness is a joke, Quran and history contradict your absurd lies. in any case we should be debating the fairness or unfairness of jizya, not how much the extortion money is or how it should be collected. DoctorKenney;970977 wrote: And then you ask the question "Who are the Non-Muslims being protected from?"....a ****** question since the obvious purpose of any State and Military is to protect its citizens. Otherwise it wouldn't exist. Its like the Police Motto "To Serve and Protect", and the protection is from people who wish to do people harm. Not understanding such basic points is really shocking to me at the moment. your thickness shows through once again. it is not the same as the police protecting you as you harmlessly put it but far more sinister my friend. i asked that question for a reason because the non payment of jizya causes one to forfeit his life and property. Ibn Qudama explains that in case of non-compliance with the dhimma pact, the dhimmi’s life and possessions are forfeit: “A protected person who violates his protection agreement, whether by refusing to pay the head tax [jizya] or to submit to the laws of the community ... makes his person and his goods ‘licit’ [halal — freely available to be killed or captured by Muslims].” DoctorKenney;970977 wrote: And if you actually did state the facts then you wouldn't contradict yourself so thoroughly and then expect me to explain your point! You clearly contradicted yourself as you don't even know what the purpose of Jizyah is, how much should be charged, who should be charged Jizyah and how it should be taken. Your playing games here so i won't even respond. DoctorKenney;970977 wrote: Back your assertions up, do not speculate and then expect us to understand your point. There are a huge number of Islamic resources going into the issue in detail and it is very clear that the Jizyah Tax is very reasonable and very humane . Any other points after this and I'm repeating myself so spare me the repetition i have sufficiently backed up my assertions. There is a huge number of islamic sources but the basic idea of instituting a discriminative tax on the dhimmis is shared across all. of course its reasonable and humane in your eyes because your definition of those terms is grotesque to begin with. For Iraqi Christians, Money Bought Survival MOSUL, Iraq — As priests do everywhere, Archbishop Paulos Faraj Rahho, the leader of the Chaldean Catholics in this ancient city, gathered alms at Sunday Mass. But for years the money, a crumpled pile of multicolored Iraqi dinars, went into an envelope and then into the hand of a man who had threatened to kill him and his entire congregation. “What else could he do?” asked Ghazi Rahho, a cousin of the archbishop. “He tried to protect the Christian people.” But American military officials now say that as security began to improve around Iraq last year, Archbishop Rahho, 65, stopped paying the protection money, one sliver of the frightening larger shadow of violence and persecution that has forced hundreds of thousands of Christians from Iraq. That decision, the officials say, may be why he was kidnapped in February. Two weeks later, his body was found in a shallow grave outside Mosul, the biblical city of Nineveh. Archbishop Rahho was among the highest-profile Iraqi Christians to die in the war. He was mourned by President Bush and Pope Benedict XVI before his role as a conduit for protection money paid by the Chaldean Christians to insurgents became known outside Iraq. So reasonable and humane isn't it. real world application puts a lie to your assertions about jizya, the equivalent of the modern income tax as you say. By the way the same extortion happens to sikhs in pakistan, copts in egypt and everywhere muslims are majority and non muslims are minority except for a few countries. non muslims are leaving islamic dominated countries in droves because of the inherent unjustness of the islamic sharia system and its unending abuses on innocent non muslims whose only crime is to be a non believer.

DoctorKenney;970933 wrote: Again, if you want to educate yourself more about this topic, you should read the Hadiths supporting these Quranic verses, as well as the commentaries regarding it. You might also do yourself a favor and read the actual link that I posted. Here is what the ibn kathir commentary on the Ayah says; " This honorable Ayah was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the Pagans were defeated, the people entered Allah’s religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims’ control. Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight the Romans and called the people to Jihad announcing his intent and destination…. Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr (Unbeliever) and Disgrace. Allah said, until they pay the Jizyah, if they do not choose to embrace Islam, with willing submission, in defeat and subservience, and feel themselves subdued, disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated." why would a normal tax come with instructions to humiliate, belittle and degrade unbelievers who pay it. Here is what al-Mughira bin Sa’d told the persian commander Rustam: " I call you to Islam or else you must pay the jizya while you are in a state of abasement." "Rustam replied, “I know what jizya means, but what does ‘a state of abasement’ mean?” "Al-Mughira explained: “You pay it while you are standing and I am sitting and the whip hanging is over your head.” DoctorKenney;970933 wrote: Regarding whether Non-Muslims should feel themselves subdued while paying Jizyah. This is just a term to emphasize the fact that the Non-Muslims who might have been hostile to the Muslim State previously, are now themselves subdued and willing to pay the tax. This is the same for all wars. I'm pretty sure the United States "subdued" Germany after 1945, but these terms are vague terms and you have no right to insert whatever meaning you like into them. In fact, Islamic scholars say regarding this verse: "This is groundless and the verse doesn't imply that. It is not related that the Prophet or the companions acted like that. The correct opinion regarding this verse is that the word "saghâr" means "acceptance" by non-Muslims of the structure of the Muslim right and their payment of Jizya. (Ahkam Ahlul Dhimma, Volume 1 p. 23-24). Once when Umar was on his way to Syria, he came across some Christian lepers at Jabia. He ordered the financial authorities to give them help from the Zakah funds and to provide for them. (Al-Baladhuri, Futuh Al-Buldan, p. 177) Its not just a vague term but rather a command to the Muslims to act upon it, once again your dishonesty shows through in your attempt to sugarcoat the unsavory parts of the religion. Islam attacked states and peoples who have not been hostile to it and far from it geographically forcing them to pay the jizya extortion. There is no justification for attacking plundering and extorting innocent peoples in their homelands whatsoever. DoctorKenney;970933 wrote: Either way, the Prophet and the 4 Righteous Caliphs all strove to protect the rights of their Non-Muslim subjects and set up a great structure in dealing with them and helping them prosper in the Islamic State, and I gave numerous examples of this. Muslims are even forbidden to backbite against Kafirs, and this further shows the exemplary nature of Islam. Protection of the rights of non Muslims ?:confused: this is a mafia system then you admit, otherwise why do they have to be protected ? and from whom ? what have they done to deserve protection ?. i also pointed to you earlier that dhimmis have few rights anyway so this assertion is doubly absurd. "Do not initiate the Salaam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley." ibn kathir , so much for your exemplary nature of islam. Sa’id ibn al-Musayyab stated: " I prefer that the people of the dhimma become tired by paying the jizya, He says, ‘until they pay the jizya with their own hands in a state of complete abasement." Records show dhimmis who came to the point of offering their children in exchange for the enormous sums that they had to pay each month and even 10 year old children were extorted in syria despite what the islamic texts say. DoctorKenney;970933 wrote: The rest of your post was pointless drivel with no substance and no facts. You pathetically attempted to reconcile 2 contradictory positions and now you're attempting to save face, instead of actual discussion. Your really thick, the onus is not on me vis-a-vis this contradiction but on islam, i just stated the facts; Islam desire to convert everyone to the true religion as they see it and the lure of easy tribute money they have to fore go when their victims convert are problems well known. the same with slaves when they convert when is obligated to free them in islam. DoctorKenney;970933 wrote: From the point of any rational person, this discussion is over. Take your Missionary points to another forum, because I've addressed everything I should have addressed. another pointless rant once again.

Egyptians shouldn't risen up against Mubarak, Syrians against Assad or Libyans against Gaddafi, is that what your implying ??

its AS doing the bombing and destruction not HAG, are you that dumb ?

Apophis;970847 wrote: Come on. How long does it take to see “everything" in the one road town known as Hargeisa; I believe this explains the obsession with SOL. so true, but I guess you could say the same thing about all somali tuulos...err cities.

DoctorKenney;970838 wrote: First you claimed: 1. That the Jizyah tax was set at artificially high rates and it was designed this way in order to intentionally make the lives of Non-Muslims difficult, thus forcing them into Islam. And then you claim: 2. That the Jizyah tax was designed to enrich the State, and that the Caliph was forced to invade new lands to acquire more Dhimmi subjects, as the number of Dhimmis dwindled. So which is it? Is it Option 1 or Option 2? Is your hatred of Islam so great that you can't even see the contradiction between the two positions? Or do you just say anything that comes to your mind? You are not a serious person at all. I don't know about artificially high rates but reconciling option 1 and 2 was a dilemma for the Muslims, their desire for steady revenue from the dhimmis clashed with their duty to convert non believers. that is why i touched on conversions being discouraged in some places lest the jizya revenue dry up. DoctorKenney;970838 wrote: This is a letter written by Abu Bakr, immediately following the Prophets death. This is addressed to the Non-Muslims: 'In the Name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful. This is the written statement of God's slave Abu Bakr, the successor of Muhammad, the Prophet and Messenger of God. He affirms for you the rights of a protected neighbor, in yourselves, your lands, your religious community, your wealth, retainers, and servants, those of you who are present or abroad, your bishops and monks, and monasteries, and all that you own, be it great or small. You shall not be deprived of any of it, and shall have full control over it.' (Abu Yusuf, Kitab al-Kharaj, p. 79) The Prophet (peace be upon him) and the four caliphs said that taking the Jizyah should be done with gentleness and respect. (Al-Mughni, Volume 4, You know the Qura'an takes precedence over all the other sources right ? Here is what the ayah regarding Jizya says unambiguously; "Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued".. the bolded parts mean what they say, the rest is unimportant. DoctorKenney;970838 wrote: The Jizyah Tax is designed to bolster State resources as well as ensure that the rights of Non Muslims not be violated. Its a little hard for me to fully respond to you as I'm at work right now, but for you to dishonestly claim such things should serve as a warning to all Muslims reading my post, that these Non-Muslim critics are not to be trusted and will twist and turn every fact they see fit in order to bash Islam. We knew it was a revenue/extortion scheme, but don't lie, it has nothing to do with keeping the rights of dhimmis as they are accorded very little rights to begin with and treated as second class citizens in their own country. lastly why do you always end your writing with rants that have nothing to do with discussion at hand. stick to the topic.

indeed, all that glitters is not gold as they say, his deceptively friendly smile fooled a lot of good hearted and decent people from early on, not any more. His actions could lead to the balkanization of somalia as different parts of the country realize his incompetence and realize no good is coming from them. it doesn't look good currently, i hope he changes course quickly.

Sources are plenty; " "The honor of Islam lies in insulting the unbelief and the unbelievers (kafirs). One who respects kafirs dishonors Muslims... The real purpose of levying the Jizya on them is to humiliate them... [and] they remain terrified and trembling." Shaykh Ahmad Sirhind Jizya was collected from all but the most destitute of dhimmis, Umar Ibn ElKhattab fixed it at 48 dirhams for the wealthy, 24 dirhams for the middle class and 12 dirhams for craftsmen and manual laborers. The payment was not uniform throughout islamic rule, it was upon the discretion of the individual rulers. Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi from Aslam, the mawla of Umar ibn al-Khattab, that Umar ibn al-Khattab imposed a jizya tax of four dinars on those living where gold was the currency, and forty dirhams on those living where silver was the currency. In addition, they had to provide for the muslims and receive them as guests for three days. Al Muwatta. The dhimmis must have a posture when paying the jizya as well; Lowering themselves by walking on their hands, reluctantly; on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas-but this is not accepted by everyone. Here is ibn Kathir Allah said, (until they pay the Jizyah), if they do not choose to embrace Islam, (with willing submission), in defeat and subservience, (and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said, "Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley." This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace. In summary Jizya was an extortion tax imposed on non Muslims as humiliation, impediment to livelihood and inducement to convert to islam. its not a normal tax as insinuated by the poster in lieu of exemption from military service. a normal tax doesn't set conditions for citizens of a state according to their religion.

However much you try to twist and justify it to make it look good, a 50 plus man marrying a 6 yr old child is plain wrong on so many levels and disgusting. How can you be against this forced marriage when the prophet himself did exactly the same ? Answer that, stop ducking.

Missionary , attack islam ?, how did i attack islam by debating with you. if your comfortable with your beliefs defend them without crying for help from the moderator.

DoctorKenney;970738 wrote: The Jizyah Tax is designed to give the Non-Muslim citizens many of the same rights and obligations as their Muslim counterparts. Only a fool could argue otherwise and sincerely expect that Non-Muslims shouldn't have to pay any tax at all, when the Zakat is a tax which every Muslim is required to pay. The problem for you is Non Muslims don't have the same rights as Muslims and neither the same obligations. 1. they are not to build any new places of worship. 2. they are not to dress like Muslims. 3. they are not to ride on horses with saddle and bridle. 4. they are to entertain for three days any Muslim who wants to stay in their homes, and for a longer period if the Muslim falls ill. 5. they are not to name themselves with Muslim names. Non Muslims are not agitating for a free ride as you disingenuously suggest but would like to pay the same tax rate as the Muslims and have the same obligations. Not even asking for representation for the taxes they pay. DoctorKenney;970738 wrote: Regarding your claim that it's a "punitive tax designed to make their lives difficult". Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 23, Number 475: Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun Al-Audi: I recommend him to abide by the rules and regulations concerning the Dhimmis (protectees) of Allah and His Apostle, to fulfill their contracts completely and fight for them and not to tax (overburden) them beyond their capabilities ." And also: 'The jizya was so light that it did not constitute a burden on them, especially when we observe that it exempted them from compulsory military service that was an obligation for their fellow citizens, the Muslims.' (Sir Thomas Arnold, Invitation to Islam, p. 77) Ever heard of not killing the Goose that lays the golden eggs, even the ancients were wise enough to know that, not bankrupt an important source of finances. its clear from history that islamic states in some places went into decline when the numbers of dhimmis went down since jizya receipts went down with them ( in some areas even conversion was stopped). This necessitated new jihad campaign into foreign lands to replenish the coffers of islamic state. The above hadeeth are imploring the believers not to milk dry their source of livelihoods and be smart about it. it in no way negates the unfair, punitive nature of the jizya -- which is a tribute akin to a mafia protection racket basically. DoctorKenney;970738 wrote: Furthermore, the tax is designed to compensate the Muslim State for having the obligation of fulfilling their rights as well as giving them military protection, as well as humble them. It is a tributary tax and Non-Muslim women, children, monks, hermits, as well as the poor do not have to pay the Jizyah tax. The tax is not binding on property as well as agriculture, but only binding on actual income. Whereas the Zakat Tax is binding on property, agriculture, investments, as well as income. So the poor peoples conquered by islam in their native lands have an obligation to pay up for their protection, their rights to be fulfilled and to humble themselves, brilliant!. DoctorKenney;970738 wrote: If the Muslims are required to pay this Zakat tax, and are required to participate in military service if the need arises, then it also makes sense that Non-Muslims be required to pay the Jizyah tax. Only an ignorant person or one who's animosity towards Islam is well-known would claim otherwise. Non Muslims are not allowed to do Military service, so can't use that an excuse DoctorKenney;970738 wrote: Do not come on this website and claim this lie that the Jizyah is to be taken regardless of the financial position of the person, when this is an outright lie. Don't come without any actual evidence. Disprove that assertion with sources, go ahead.

The prophet himself consummated a marriage to a 9 yr old girl, and Muslims are ordered to follow his lead because he is the supreme example of good conduct. i would think the prophet example is more powerful proof of permissibility than your hadeeth. Yemeni child bride marriage thus is on solid religious ground. you can't pick choose parts of the religion you like.

Where did you get the 2 % rate for Jizya ? there is a minimum but not maximum limit. Zakat and Jizya are not equivalent taxes imposed on Muslims and non Muslims as you disingenuously suggest. Jizya is punitive tax designed to force conversion of non Muslims, by deliberately making their life hard and constantly reminding them of their lowly status hence the " until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued". its imposed only on people of the book, ie christians & jews, what about the rest of the religious groups ?. 1.Jizya has to be paid no matter the financial condition of the payee unlike zakat, 2. failing to pay jizya one's life and assets are forfeit. 3. tell me anywhere where taxes have these conditions ?. in summary the two are wholly different, you can only twist lies so much.

GAROODI;970616 wrote: The hag have figured out a new formula for Somalia conquest. Keep hag in presidency hire a d block yes man. Develop mugdisho and take the country. Genius. You will see this as the new formula. Hag is getting serious now. The second objective will be to change the constitution, develop a hag ruled army and mugdisho. From there build a power base from Kenyan border to Galkacyo. A new day has dawned for hag however the only thing letting them down is security and the reliance on au soldiers. But if they can end the dependence on au then its win win. :confused:

^