1. Every single one of the 5 questions you posed, were already answered by me.....in my final summary. Go to Page 8 of this thread....and read the bottom post. 2. Allyourbase proves his lack of reading comprehension when he repeats questions which I've answered already 3. Your constant claims of "victory" make you look silly here. Everyone viewing this thread can see who "won" here. 4. You can dismiss the references I posted and claim that "no one cares about them" all you want. But this is a Fiqh issue and there are volumes of books on this single issue 5. Anyone who's still interested in this issue....can read my post at the bottom of page 8 . This is my "summary" post which I made about 7 hours ago. 6. Anyone who's not satisfied with what I wrote can read the Fiqhi book which has 300 pages of facts and references which goes into this issue in DETAIL Now what are you gonna do? Are you gonna repeat the same exact claims and then re-dress them as a new argument? Everyone can see I answered every single question he posed yet he refuses to answer any of my questions Typical Kaffir arrogance. I'm done with this.

And BTW......constantly rehashing the same arguments doesnt count as a legitimate response. You lazily refer to opinions which don't agree with you as outside of the mainstream. I provided evidence that the MAINSTREAM agrees almost unanimously (with a few exceptions) that this practice is forbidden Checkmate. And if you have any more questions regarding this, feel free to visit those links And Allah knows best

Everything you've asked I already addressed.....and anything I allegedly never addressed, can be found in the links I provided In fact, the link I provided actually references a 300 page book which goes into deep detail regarding this, and it answers all of the claims of those who have objections. I posted the references for everyone to see. Click on the links, and read them for yourself. Then download the PDF copy of the 300 page book which gives plenty of evidences in my favour www.let me turn the tables.com P.S. Indeed, Sheikh Ibn Taymiyah and Albaani and Aisha did get it wrong sometimes. They were human and they did make mistakes sometimes End of discussion

Any Muslim who wants further information can read my sources as well as contact Waqar Aqbar Cheema regarding this issue. He wrote an entire book about this. And his website is http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/06/there-is-no-adult-breastfeeding-in.html

Summary of my points: 1. In Islam, it's forbidden for a man to marry his foster mother, or his foster sister. So if a young baby boy was breastfed by a woman, then he is forbidden from marrying this woman in the future, upon reaching adulthood. He is forbidden from marrying that woman's daughters, and he becomes a Mahram to them. So therefore, it's permissible for him to be alone with her, and for her to uncover in front of him, because she becomes like a Mother to him. (He had to have been breastfed a minimum of 5 times for it to be applicable) Here is the evidence for that: Forbidden to you (for marriage) are : your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your foster mother who gave you suck, your foster milk suckling sisters , your wives' mothers, your step daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom you have gone in - but there is no sin on you if you have not gone in them (to marry their daughters), - the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins, and two sisters in wedlock at the same time, except for what has already passed; verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. 2. Abu Hudayfah was a Muslim man, a Companion of the Prophet. He and his wife Sahla adopted a young boy by the name of Salem. They raised him, and considered him their own son. After some time, direct adoption was forbidden in Islam. You could sponsor an orphan, but you couldn't adopt him and give him your surname. So Sahla complained about this to the Prophet. She didn't like that her husband felt uncomfortable with Salem (who was now an adult) being alone with her while uncovered. So as an exception, The Prophet ordered the practice of adult breastfeeding, in the case of Salem. This was permitted for ONE person, at ONE incident. And it was the exception to the general rule. And I already said that several times in my previous posts. Here's the evidence: A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Sahla bint Suhail came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: "Messenger of Allah, I see on the face of Abu Hudayfah (signs of disgust) on entering of Salim (who is an ally) into (our house)", whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: "Suckle him". She said: "How can I suckle him as he is a grown-up man?" Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) smiled and said: "I already know that he is a young man." (Sahih Muslim, Volume 5, Book 8, Number 3424) 3. The Prophet later abrogated that practice, and it's no longer valid. So the practice is now forbidden, and it has been for the last 14 centuries. There are numerous Sahih hadiths and fatwas which say so. And there is a Quranic verse (Surah 2:233) which agrees with me. Here is the evidence: Quran 2:233 "Mothers may breastfeed their children two complete years for whoever wishes to complete the nursing [period]." Sahih Bukhari Book 48 Hadith 815 Once the Prophet came to me while a man was in my house. He said, "O 'Aisha! Who is this (man)?" I replied, "My foster brothers" He said, "O 'Aisha! Be sure about your foster brothers, as fostership is only valid if it takes place in the suckling period (before two years of age). " In al-Muwatta’ (2/603), Maalik reported that Ibn ‘Umar said: “ There is no breastfeeding except for the one who is breastfed in infancy; there is no breastfeeding for one who is grown up. ” Its isnaad is saheeh. 4. When it was indeed permitted, it was stipulated that Salem drink the milk out of a cup or a utensil. Abu Hudayfah didn't like Salem being alone with his wife, so how could he totally fine with his wife breastfeeding a man who he felt uncomfortable around. It doesn't make any sense. So Salem drank out of a cup, for 5 days in a row, and here's my evidence: Muhammad Ibn ‘Umar told us: Muhammad Ibn ‘Abdullah, Az-Zuhri’s nephew, told us on authority of his father that he said: an amount of one milk drink was collected in a pot or glass, so Salem used to drink it every day, for five days . After this, he used to enter at her while her head is uncovered. This was permission from Messenger of Allah to Sahla bint Suhail. (Ibn Sa’d, Kitab At-Tabaqat Al-Kabir, Volume 10, page 257. Also, Ibn Hajar, Al-Isabah, Volume 7, page 717) And furthermore, it is forbidden in Islam, for a woman to uncover in front of an Adult Man who's not her family member. If she's not related to the Man, then she must cover her entire body except for her face and hands. So it is inconceivable that Salem drank out of nothing except a cup or utensil. 5. So the Prophet permitted this practice in this one case. It was permitted for ONE couple, as a general exception to the rule, and it's no longer valid. You can't take provisions that were granted by the Prophet and then claim it is valid under Shariah. And the whole purpose of this, is to establish the link of fostership with the person. Once the man is breastfed, he's forbidden to marry this woman and she becomes like a family member to him. 6. At one point in time, alcohol was permitted in Islam. It was later prohibited by the Prophet. So a few rulings did change during the lifetime of the Prophet. And this is an example of that. Is it permitted today? NO. Have you given me any evidence that it's permitted today? NO. So what else is there to discuss with you?? 7. For you to disregard Thabaqat Al Sa'd because of the time lapse (150 years) but then you accept Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim is ultimately dishonest and disingenuous. Imam Bukhari himself lived 200 years after the Prophet, and so did Imam Muslim. And then you want to claim that Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari are the only two valid sources of Hadith, and that is a lie. There are many sources of Hadith, what matters is their authenticity. And only a small minority of Hadiths actually come from Sahih Bukhari. There are literally dozens of Hadith volumes, and all of them contained authentic narrations. 8. I provided two links regarding this issue, which go into far greater detail than me. This is for any Muslims reading this post: http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=4806&CATE=120 http://www.answering-christianity.com/shamoun-nursing.htm#Why 9. All Four Schools of Law, and all of the Scholars prohibit feeding a child after the age of 2 years old. Once the child is 2 years old, or 2.5 years old, then you're no longer allowed to breastfeed him There are no further points for me to bring up. I discussed everything I needed to discuss. I summarized all the points. I provided conclusive evidence that this practice of adult breastfeeding doesn't exist in Islam anymore. It was a temporary ruling, for a temporary period. And any other points that needed to be addressed, can be found in the links I provided. Checkmate saaxib. There's nothing else for me to bring up here. I addressed everything I needed to. You clearly don't care about finding out about the truth, because no neutral human-being would complain about a law that doesn't even apply anymore. It's no longer valid. Your arrogance regarding this is unbelievable. You're speaking in a mocking tone, you are behaving disrespectfully, and your posts have now become insulting and mocking. There's no need for me to continue this discussion with the likes of you. I posted everything I needed to And this is my last post on this issue. Anyone who wants to find out more about this can listen to the lecture of Jalal Abualrub regarding this, and click on the two links I provided. Islam prohibits it. I don't believe in the ruling. The vast majority of the Companions, as well as the Scholars all don't believe in the ruling. It was valid at one time, for one couple, in one incident. And that's the end of it. There is nothing left for me to add. And Allah knows Best

What an interesting thread. Thanks for posting this Safferz

Khayr;991048 wrote: Offbase, Why don't you want to answer my question? Here it is again: By the way, what is the going salary for a Junior Troller on muslim sites? Any Bonuses and benefits? There really isn't anything I should respond to, regarding this troll. Everything he just claimed, I already addressed. And any future posts I make regarding this, I'll risk repeating myself. So what else is there to say? He keeps claiming as if this ruling is still valid. I proved to him that it's no longer valid. I proved to him that this ruling was an exception made for specific people, during the lifetime of the Prophet. And that this ruling no longer applies. I proved to him that the woman first poured the milk into a cup, and then gave it to him to drink, but he insists that it's not true, and then he wants to insert his own bias into this. So what else is there to say to someone who wants to deny the facts altogether? It's pointless. It's proof that he has no interest in getting out the truth, but is only getting a kick out of discussing this topic. I've given him Quranic verses, tafsirs, authentic hadiths, fatwas, and the opinions of many different Sahabi regarding this issue, who completely agree with me, but Allyourbase wants to dismiss this. He's bankrupt here. Here's another link that goes into further detail regarding this topic than I ever had: http://www.answering-christianity.com/shamoun-nursing.htm#Why was nursing of adults That's all I have to say regarding this, this argument itself has been refuted several years ago.

Khayr;991012 wrote: Offbase, Aisha (ر) reported the hadith but where did it say that men where suckling her breast? You are spewing this thread with your garbage and you are being insideous with your circular line of questioning. You should be banned! Saaxib, read the link I provided too. Worst case scenario, she permitted drinking someone's breast-milk out of a cup in order to make that person a Mahram. So you put the milk in a cup first, then cover yourself up, then give it to that person to drink. Allyourbase took that incorrect ruling, and made an entire argument based on that weak argument. He blatantly lied on this forum, and I see no reason to tolerate his BS Nowhere in hell did it say that men were suckling her breast. Aisha never uncovered herself, she never spoke to men except through a barrier, and was a rather private person. Either way, I gotta leave the house.

Wing Wizard;991010 wrote: I said the Wahabi sheikhs preach against science and law which is true. Your average Muslim person living in the Great Middle East isn't knowledgeable enough about the Islamic religion and his source of information is the average Wahabi sheikh in the local masjid who wants to talk about science while his knowledge about science is big fat ZERO. We're in the 21st century and these local sheikhs still tell people that a man automatically becomes kaafir if he believes a mankind has ever landed on the moon or a solar eclipse occurs when the moon passes between the sun and earth. Your average Muslim person takes the talk of these sheikhes in the local masjid as Qur'aan. Whether you like it or not, that's the painful truth in our Muslim world. Dude, do you even know what a Wahhabi is? And have you ever even lived in these countries? Do you actually believe that Local Imams make takfir on people who state that a solar eclipse is when the moon passes in front of the sun? You actually believe in this? I doubt you've ever been to these countries. You sound like you're repeating what you hear on the internet. I've been to literally dozens of mosques in the Middle East and Africa and I've never heard anything of the sort. You're making it up.

Raamsade;991008 wrote: People like Dr. Ken are textbook example of the price religious dogma exacts on the human intellect. Even when confronted with unassailable arguments and evidence, rather do what most rational people would do and consider revising his previous positions, he digs in further. That is what dogma does, it forces you to stick to a position no matter what your head or heart tells you. Raamsade, and you're a textbook example of what price "religious bias" exacts on the human intellect. You already have your pre-conceived notions of what Islam is, and you'll look at this discussion, read a couple of AllYourBase's points, and then claim that what he's claiming is true and factual. You do this without even looking at the other side, and without even looking at the overwhelming evidence in my favor, which proves Allyourbase as being wrong. But no, according to you, religious people are the ones who are not rational. I can come with 50 pieces of evidence, you'll come up with 1 or 2 pieces of evidence that are abrogated, and then you'll claim that you're the one who's in the right. Your hypocrisy is telling.

Here is the link that goes into further detail regarding this. Everyone reading this thread should click on it http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=4806&CATE=120 Either way, you're jumping around here trying to prove something that's not true. It's not valid in Shariah. It's an incorrect ruling, and I've given plenty of examples showing you. And even Aisha herself, never believed that it was okay for a strange man to suckle out of a woman directly. What she believed in, was pouring the milk into a utensil or a cup, and then give the cup to the man to drink, without exposing her body parts. Allyourbase would have us believe that there were lines of men waiting to suckle on her, which is totally wrong and is a complete fabrication, and he is slandering the name of Aisha.. He's giving no evidence at all for his beliefs. Again, read the link I provided, which provides different evidences but reaches the same conclusions. That's all I have to say about this issue. And there are plenty of refutations on the net All he's doing (Allyourbase) is basically trying desperately to validate his pre-conceived beliefs and then try to pass it off as a legitimate ruling in Islam. He's wrong, I've proven him wrong several times on this thread, and that should be the end of this discussion. The link I provided goes into far greater detail than me, but it still says everything I needed to say.

Allyourbase;991003 wrote: So FINALLY you agree that Aisha is a sinner? And she, along with Albany and Ibn Taymiyyah's understanding of this matter is morbid, immoral, strange and definitely not part of islam? Do you agree? (Say yes ) NOPE. She's incorrect. And he was incorrect. And yes, they may have committed sins in their life (along with virtually all humans), but they're not sinners, far from it actually. And whatever minor sins they might have committed, they were known to frequently repent to God for forgiveness everyday. That's all I have to say about it, and I won't tolerate you attempting to defame the character of Aisha or Al Albaani. People make mistakes. Including our scholars. And the rulings they're right on, is far more than the rulings they're incorrect on. So end the topic.

I never denied they were Sahih, and if I'm mentioning that this ruling was abrogated, then I'm implicitly acknowledging that it was valid at one point in time! If it was posted in Sahih Bukhari or Muslim, then yeah.....all indicators are saying that they're Sahih. There is no SCHOOL of Albaani or Ibn Taymiyyah. Those scholars were men, and weren't perfect, and had made mistakes. (And there are plenty of examples of other Scholars that make mistakes). Don't try and make it seem as if I'm abandoning them, or that I'm denying that they're authorities on Fiqh issues. I'm denying their rulings, because there's a stronger opinion, and the stronger opinion is that the ruling is incorrect and that the breastfeeding of a person is only until the person reaches 2 years of age. So yes, Albaani was wrong on this. Ibn Taymiyyah was wrong on this. Whereas Umar bin Khattab, Ali ibn Abi Talib, Abdullahi ibn Masud, Ibn Abbas, Ibn Umar, Abu Hurayrah as well as the Prophet's other wives were correct on this. How many times do I have to repeat this point for you to fully understand it? On one hand, we have a couple Scholars and Aisha asserting a point. On the other hand, we have thousands of Sahabi, Scholars and the Prophet's other wives asserting the opposite point. But the 2nd group have FAR more evidences and their understanding of this issue is unanimous. And the block of text that I referenced, is still valid. There is no "being caught" here, because the answer to the question was stated in full. The nature of Islamic Fatwas, is that they tend to go in extreme detail regarding a topic, and then reference the points they want to reference, AND THEN they go on to answer the question. If you read the actual text, it confirms EVERYTHING that I stated on this thread. Because I highlighted the points that I wanted you to read, and if you read that Scholar's essay, he says repeatedly that breastfeeding is only valid for the first 2 years of someone's life. Here's the link to it: http://islamqa.com/en/2864 Everyone read it And he references the Quran here: The breastfeeding must happen within the first two years of the child’s life, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “The mothers shall give suck to their children for two whole years, (that is) for those (parents) who desire to complete the term of suckling…” [al-Baqarah 2:233]. So there's nothing for me to say here. The argument is done, it's finished, and I addressed everything I wanted to address (and repeated myself several times too)

Khayr, there's no use in continuing this with him at all. I'm gonna say this again, so people can understand me: And in Islam, individual Sheikhs are never taken as an authority (on religious rulings). What's taken as an authority is the CONSENSUS. ie. What they all agree on, and then cross-reference on whether their beliefs are in accordance to the evidences. Each individual person is prone to making mistakes, which is why we look towards what they collectively believe, and hope that their collective beliefs are correct. What Allyourbase is doing is completely dishonest, and he knows it. He quotes Hadiths, claims that those hadith rulings are still valid to this day, and then he claims that this is the valid view of the consensus of scholars, and then he tries to flip the situation and make it as if his opinion is the correct one. And then he tries to flip it on me and claim that I'm the one with the misunderstanding! Read above, read everything I posted, and I've given plenty of evidence. So what if Aisha and Sheikh Albaani made mistakes? What does this have to do with anything?

Allyourbase;990991 wrote: I hope this discussion has proved how fickle the understanding of muslims, even those who claim some religious knowledge of the real rulings of this religion. I am sure both DoctorKenny and Khayr were shocked to hear this really weird practice by Aisha and the Prophet. I think both members here are well meaning, they want to represent their religion and defend it, but what they are missing in doing so is actually thinking about what they are copying and pasting. They are so busy trying to get those Hasanaat and the browny points that will get them to their Jannah that they get into some really murky situations. Evidently seen here by drKenny taking out part of the huge wall of essay just because it would be clear that the question is not relevant to this discussion. Also evident by his own desertion of the very Sheikhs he proclaimed to be authorities on religious matters, and trying to find other ones purely because their opinions embarrassed him in this discussion, clearly Fatwa Shopping, an act he was criticising just earlier today. Its a shame and it speaks of the lack of reasoning that we suffer from today. Allyourbase, I live near a Church, and I was unfortunate enough to be in close proximity to Missionary Christians for most of my life. I already know about this ruling, I've heard this argument regarding breastfeeding when I was a teenager, so don't try and make any assumptions of what I don't know or do know. And I remember hearing a Muslim (I think it was Abdullah al Andalusi or Shabir Ally?) soundly refute the Missionary in a debate about this topic. But this was years ago. I've heard practically every single argument brought forth against Islam. I haven't heard a new argument in at least the last 3 or 4 years. Everything has been rehashed. The rulings stand. AllYourBase hasn't been able to refute them, and all he's been able to do is reference some irrelevant ruling which has been abrogated during the lifetime of the Prophet. It is the same as if AllYourBase references Surah 4:43 "O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say....." and then he points to that verse and claim "Hey! Islam permits drinking alcohol as long as we're not drunk while performing the prayer!" It's a dishonest point. It speaks to either his 1. Bias or 2. Extreme Ignorance, regarding this issue. The ruling was abrogated, and the later ruling still stands: Sahih Bukhari Book 48 Hadith 815 Once the Prophet came to me while a man was in my house. He said, "O 'Aisha! Who is this (man)?" I replied, "My foster brothers" He said, "O 'Aisha! Be sure about your foster brothers, as fostership is only valid if it takes place in the suckling period (before two years of age). " And I have given you numerous fatwas, rulings, and opinions from thousands of Sheikhs, Scholars, and Sahabi who unanimously agree that the breastfeeding after a certain age is no longer valid. Khayr, MagicBird, he hasn't done anything to refute either of our points. There's no use in debating this topic any further, as anything said anymore will be rehashed

Fatwa shopping ONLY applies when you're looking for a ruling that contradicts the established consensus of the Scholars. What part of that don't you understand? For example, it's unanimously agreed upon that Riba is interest, and therefore forbidden. Almost all scholars can agree on this. Some regular person, can look at this and then go "Fatwa Shopping" ie. Find a Sheikh who permits dealing in Riba, and then claim that this is fact. That's what Fatwa Shopping is. My claim, and my belief, is in agreement with virtually all of the Sahabi, almost all of the scholars, and almost all of the Sheikhs throughout the last 14 centuries. What you haven't managed to prove, is that the consensus of the scholars agree with you. And I have proven to you that the vast majority of Sheikhs, Scholars, Companions and the like agree with me here. But no, you want to focus on the few who disagree with the common consensus, and then claim that this is the correct opinion. Remember what I said earlier: In Fiqh, there are sometimes several rulings given, the science of Fiqh tries to determine which is the more correct ruling and which one isn't. I've given you plenty of evidence of what the correct ruling is. And I said it twice already, that these Hadiths were abrogated in favor of the later hadith, which expressly forbids such actions. The same way how alcohol was once permitted in Shariah, but then was prohibited as time went on. And I said this earlier: And in Islam, individual Sheikhs are never taken as an authority (on religious rulings). What's taken as an authority is the CONSENSUS. ie. What they all agree on, and then cross-reference on whether their beliefs are in accordance to the evidences . Each individual person is prone to making mistakes, which is why we look towards what they collectively believe, and hope that their collective beliefs are correct. And I intentionally chose not to include the question itself, because it was irrelevant to the discussion. I posted the answer to the question because it references sources which I myself can use. The sources themselves say NUMEROUS times, that breastfeeding is only valid for the first 2 years of someone's life. And the block of text I referenced even said before getting into any details: Before answering this question, we must explain some important points about the rulings (ahkaam) concerning breastfeeding (al-radaa’). So it went into detail about the rulings of breastfeeding, how much is enough, at what age should it end, and other details. The references I wanted you to read were bolded, and you can read them yourself. I copied and pasted the entire answer, and it confirms what's been said in the Hadiths, and the opinions of almost all the scholars. Anyone can see these hadiths for themselves, and the Hadiths which expressly forbid this practice from carrying on. And if you're going to claim "Checkmate" at least do so when you're actually sure that you won the argument. You've done nothing but repeat yourself in the above post. Not a good look

I really can't see where this is going, and I can't see any further points that AllYourBase has brought up that Khayr, Magicbird or I haven't already addressed. The evidences are quite clear, and the ruling is very clear. That's all I have to say about this

Actually, I took that page from the Islam-Qa website. READ THAT BLOCK OF TEXT. It expressly forbids breastfeeding at least 5 different times throughout the article. A man drinking his wife's milk is strange, but it's permitted. But the answer of the Fatwa itself had nothing to do with the question. What's definitely not allowed is the suckling of a grown adult with the aim of making that person a Mahram. DUDE, READ IT. You obviously didn't understand it if that's the conclusion you're trying to reach. I even highlighted the parts I wanted you to focus on, and you totally want to ignore it!. I'm not comparing anything, I'm giving you specified rulings from the Sahabi themselves. There's plenty of resources in the Hadiths and the Quran which agree with my position, and I already stated that the previous ruling was abrogated. I'm repeating myself here, and there's no use in continuing this. If Khayr or MagicBird or someone else wants to add to my points, by all means do so

Allyourbase;990983 wrote: You did not answer me DrKenny, are the Hadiths that I have posted Sahih or not? Simple question requires simple answers. And please dont copy and paste your argument, if I wanted I could copy and paste my arguments from the myriad websites that have anti islamic essays, I only get sources and put them here for authentication. Now answer my question please. I do not care if it was one incident or a ruling, this falls to everyones own sense of judgment as seen in how Aisha thought its a general ruling and the other wives did not. Lets stick to the basics, are these Sahih or not? Read my first paragraph. I addressed that Hadith. It was regarding an isolated incident during the lifetime of the Prophet, regarding Abu Hudayfah, and the ruling was later abrogated by the Prophet himself in another Sahih Hadith. The Quran itself abrogates it, and the scholars unanimously agree with the later ruling. Almost all of the scholars, almost all of the Sahabi, the Prophet, and the Quran all forbid this. So no, it's not true. Whatever you believe about it, is incorrect. Since I gave you clear evidence that breastfeeding is not valid after 2 years of age, then there's no point in me discussing the topic any further. It's pretty much indisputable now, that this is forbidden. We're running around in circles now, and there's no point in continuing this. I gave you the evidences, I refuted your points, and the other Brothers on this forum all provided evidences proving that you are wrong. All you're going to do is reiterate the same thing, but the evidence is above.

Allyourbase, that specific ruling was abrogated towards the end of the Prophet's life, and the later ruling still stands. It is forbidden in Islam to breastfeed a grown adult. That's what the entire argument is based on. And that incident was a special incident meant for only an isolated issue, as the rulings of Islam stipulated that adoption was no longer valid in Islam. This was at a time when the Shariah was still not complete, and rulings were still being sent down by Allah. And the Sahabi was uncomfortable being in the presence of a woman who was no longer legally his Mahram, so this was the solution. And furthermore, the breast-milk was put inside a cup and he drank from the cup, he never drank directly from her breasts. Here you go: Praise be to Allaah. Before answering this question, we must explain some important points about the rulings (ahkaam) concerning breastfeeding (al-radaa’). 1. Breastfeeding is proven in the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and by ijmaa’ (scholarly consensus). Qur’aan: Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “… your foster mothers who gave you suck, your foster milk suckling sisters…” [al-Nisa’ 4:23]. Sunnah: Ibn ‘Abbaas reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “What is forbidden by radaa’ (suckling or breastfeeding) is the same as what is forbidden by nasab (lineage).” (Agreed upon; al-Bukhaari, Muslim, 1444). Ijmaa’: The scholars agree that the effect of radaa’ (breastfeeding) prohibits marriage and creates the relationship of mahram, and permits seeing and being alone (with the people to whom one is related through radaa’). 2. For breastfeeding to have the effect of transmitting its benefits from the nursing woman to the child suckled, it must meet certain conditions, which are: The breastfeeding must happen within the first two years of the child’s life, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “The mothers shall give suck to their children for two whole years, (that is) for those (parents) who desire to complete the term of suckling…” [al-Baqarah 2:233]. The number of breastfeedings must total the known five feeds, in which the child eats his fill as if eating and drinking. If the child leaves the breast for a reason, such as to take a breath or to switch from one breast to the other, this (i.e., each separate time the child latches on) is not counted as one breastfeeding. This is the opinion of al-Shaafa’i, and the opinion favoured by Ibn al-Qayyim. The definition of rad’ah (one breastfeeding) is when the child sucks at the breast and drinks until the milk enters his stomach, then he leaves the breast of his own accord. The evidence for the number five (number of breastfeedings) is the report from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) who said: “There was in the Qur’aan [an aayah which stipulated that] ten [was the number of] breastfeedings which created the relationship of mahram, then this was abrogated [by another aayah which stipulated] five. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) died and [the aayah which stipulated five] was still being recited as part of the Qur’aan.” (Reported by Muslim, 1452). In other words, the abrogation came so late that when the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) died, some people had not yet heard that this aayah had been abrogated, but when they heard that it had been abrogated, they stopped reciting it, and agreed that it should not be recited, although the ruling mentioned in the aayah remained in effect. This is an abrogation of the recitation without abrogation of the ruling, which is one type of abrogation. Having understood this, breastfeeding after the first two years does not create any relationship of mahram. This is the opinion of the majority of scholars, and among the references which they quote is the aayah cited above, along with the hadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Nothing of breastfeeding creates the relationship of mahram except what fills the stomach to bursting point, before (the age of) weaning.” Reported by al-Tirmidhi. (No. 1152), who said: This is a hasan saheeh hadeeth. The application of this according to the scholars among the Companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and others is that breastfeeding does not create the relationship of mahram except when it is within the first two years, and anything after the first two whole years does not create any such relationship.” There are some other reports from the Sahaabah, such as that narrated from Abu ‘Atiyah al-Waadi’i, who said: “A man came to Ibn Mas’ood and said: ‘My wife was with me and her breasts were full of milk (she was engorged). I began to suck it and spit it out. Then I came to Abu Moosa.’ He (Ibn Mas’ood) said, ‘What did you tell him?’ So he (Abu Moosa) told him what he had told him. Then Ibn Mas’ood stood up, took the man’s hand (and said), ‘Do you think this is an infant? Breastfeeding is what produces the growth of flesh and blood.’ Abu Moosa said: ‘Do not ask me anything when this scholar is among you.’” (Reported by ‘Abd al-Razzaaq in al-Musannaf, 7/463, no. 13895). In al-Muwatta’ (2/603), Maalik reported that Ibn ‘Umar said: “There is no breastfeeding except for the one who is breastfed in infancy; there is no breastfeeding for one who is grown up.” Its isnaad is saheeh. Maalik also reported in al-Muwatta’ that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Dinar said: “A man came to ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar when I was with him in the court-house, asking him about breastfeeding one who is grown up. ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar said: ‘A man came to ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab and said, “I have a slave-girl with whom I used to have sexual relations, and my wife went to her and gave her her milk, then when I went to her, she said, ‘Stop, by Allaah I have given her my milk.’” ‘Umar said, “Punish her (your wife), and (continue to) go to your slave-girl, for (the ruling on) breastfeeding only applies to breastfeeding of infants.”’” Its isnaad is saheeh. From this is it clear that drinking one’s wife’s milk has no effect and does not create the relationship of mahram. Ibn Qudaamah said in al-Mughni (9/201): “One of the conditions of breastfeeding creating the relationship of mahram is that it should be within the first two years. This is the opinion of most of the scholars. Something like this was narrated from ‘Umar, ‘Ali, Ibn ‘Umar, Ibn Mas’ood, Ibn ‘Abbaas, Abu Hurayrah and the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), apart from ‘Aa’ishah. It was also the opinion of al-Shi’bi, Ibn Shubrumah, al-Oozaa’i, al-Shaafa’i, Ishaaq, Abu Yoosuf, Muhammad, and Abu Thawr, and was narrated in one report from Maalik. On the basis of the above, drinking one’s wife’s milk has no effect, but it is better to avoid it. Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen was asked about this matter, and he replied: Breastfeeding a grown-up has no effect, because the breastfeeding which has an effect (of creating the relationship of mahram) is that which consists of five feedings or more within the first two years, before weaning. On this basis, if it happened that someone breastfed from his wife or drank her milk, he does not become her son. Fataawa Islamiyah, 3/338. And Allaah knows best. And furthermore: Sahih Bukhari Book 48 Hadith 815 Once the Prophet came to me while a man was in my house. He said, "O 'Aisha! Who is this (man)?" I replied, "My foster brothers" He said, "O 'Aisha! Be sure about your foster brothers, as fostership is only valid if it takes place in the suckling period (before two years of age) ."

magicbird;990969 wrote: Dr Kenney, aboowe don't be listening to this fool, the story of Salem is a legend that was made up to discredit Aisha ra by the enemies of Islam. So anything any corrupt person says, verify it. Yes walaal, he's a corrupt person and what he's saying is attempting to discredit Aisha. Anyways, here's a Sahih Hadith which proves him wrong: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said “Nothing of breastfeeding creates the relationship of mahram except what fills the stomach to bursting point, before (the age of) weaning. ” Reported by al-Tirmidhi. (No. 1152) Notice the underlined part. Before the age of weaning ie. Before the age of 2 years old. The argument has now devolved to us running in circles, and it's reached a point where AllYourBase is throwing accusations against Islam and we're supposed to sit here, defending it from his misconceptions. Allyoubase is more than welcome to do his own research, in a different forum, which addresses these sort of topics. There are a million Islamic forums on the net, and he can pick whichever one he chooses next time he wants to bring forth an accusation against Islam.

I never said it was immoral. I was it was strange. Aisha thought it was a valid ruling and thats why she preached it. And Aisha was a human and capable of making errors

They're frauds because some of them made some mistakes, mistakes which some of them actually repented from years later? You want to define these Sheikhs by singular statements despite them writing volumes of books on my topics? And Aisha came up with this ruling because she genuinely believed it was a valid ruling ....stop trying to make it seem as if she instituted this ruling out of her personal interests, as you have no evidence of this. And fine, you can dislike these Sheikhs and disagree with them. In fact, any Muslim can. It's irrelevant either way.

Allyourbase, this view is indeed incorrect, and the consensus from scholars such as Ibn Umar, Umar ibn Khattab, Ali, Abu Hurayrah, Ibn Masu'd, Ibn Abbas and all the wives of the Prophet (with the exception of Aisha) state clearly that breastfeeding is only valid for the first 2 years of someone's life. You can't breastfeed an adult. So yes, Aisha was incorrect. But for you to search for bizarre rulings and then claim that it is indicative of the whole religion is dishonest. You want to take these rulings, and then claim that Islam is unanimously in support of it. I have news for you: In many matters of Fiqh, there is no single correct answer. And those who make rulings can be wrong from time to time. But this is entirely out of topic, and this thread has devolved into nothing more than you trying to bring up points against the religion, which has nothing to do with the thread topic. All you've managed to do, is prove to us that scholars do get it wrong sometimes. And this is something we all knew about beforehand. Unlike other religions, we don't worship our learned ones, and we're honest enough to admit that these scholars can be wrong sometimes. And if you have any questions regarding Fiqh and Hadith rulings and the like, then visit: http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/ It's a forum where you can register and ask questions.

Tallaabo;990927 wrote: How could you refute the reasoning of those sheikhs who say homosexuality is permitted in Islam without thinking? You are implying that you just follow the herd. Just because a large number of today's Muslim scholars agree with the honest opinions of some eminent medieval scholars does not mean that what is agrees upon is necessarily correct. Tallaabo, this is because there are Hadiths which outright forbid it. The Companions of the Prophet forbade it. And the 4 Madhabs and the thousands of Sheikhs over the last 14 centuries unanimously condemned it. So yes, I do believe it's not permitted.