U know all of us so well, nice. As u can see ive lived up to my name, even though its a hard job being a wadani day in and day out lol.

I didn't say she negates it either. My problem was with the following. She asked for an aspect of Western culture that's superior. The opponent replied with in that it allows 'religious freedom'. Her reply was 'first your argument was about culture, but now it is about religion?' This doesn't make sense as an answer because, as I've said, whether the culture of a particular society admits the existence of religious freedom is one of the merits of that culture. I see what your saying here. I don't understand how you can describe the source of your morality as objective 'because it's divine'. I was taught that a statement is objective if and only if the truth-values of all its propositions can independently be verified. Besides, if certain practice falls outside the vicinity of your moral framework, then the existence of that practice of that in some other society doesn't mean that society is 'crumbling'. For example, polygamy doesn't fall within my moral framework yet I don't characterise moral frameworks in which it does as 'backwards' or 'crumbled'. Since God created humans, his dictates are an objective source on morality, free from being sucesptible to the faulty logic and fickle whims and desires of humans. But this is the Muslim point of view, so I didnt expect you to agree anyway. I'm not aware of any secular humanists who view, say, homosexuality as a negative social behaviour -- nor who hold the view that Western moral values have 'decreased' (I would say most hold the opposite). The same goes for abortion. These views are more likely to be from conservative Christians than secular humanists. Almost all the top countries in any 'least corrupt countries' study are always Western. There might be a point in, say, aggressive foreign policy but it isn't that good. It's not that I think Western culture has no criticism; rather, it's that (a) better examples can be given than have been provided, and (b) it's far more progressive compared with the other concerned culture. Well that's why I said almost everything she listed would be good examples, because I know homosexuality for example is a perfectly benign act to a secular himanist, since it does not harm nor infringe upon the rights of others. As for abortion, on the other hand, and masked poverty, aggressive and predatory foreign policy, massacre of civilians, crippling of foreign economies under the guise of free trade/aid, and many of the other things she listed, any sincere person, regardless of worldview, would have a hard time not seeing the inherent evils in all of them. The argument was along the lines of whether Western culture is more progressive than Arab culture; so the progress of human knowledge within both of these cultures is not just a point that should be considered, but rather, in my opinion, the point. If your point with Nazism is to illustrate that a scientifically progressive society can be a morally bad one, then I would say, while this might be true, Nazi Germany wasn't really scientifically progressive. They came to an academically progressive Germany and left a bad one. It went to a state that most academics had to leave and migrate to other countries. It can't be the point, unless this knowledge has elevated the given culture into a superior station of morality, which is how I thought we were defining cultural superiority in this debate in the first place. The West is unmatched in its production of knowledge, no doubt, but I bet the people of hiroshima and nagasaki, and the people of Vietnam, and those of Iraq and Afghanistan, who were nuked, napalm bombed and carpet bombed into oblivion wish America never passed the iron age. I didn't go so far as to argue that Western world is culturally more progressive than Eastern world, but I think a case can be made for that as well (of course the inclusion of Persian/Indian/Oriental elements would make my case all the more difficult). With everything else in that paragraph, I more or less feel the same way. In my 70s I'll be a filthy billionaire married to a 25 year old Britney Spears lookalike blonde. The tragedy of course will be that she's waiting for me to die so that she inherits the wealth, and not that I'm in an old people's home somewhere, having last seen my only daughter a year ago when she visited and stayed for about 20 minutes, thereby living the ironies of embracing and arguing for Western culture, as you would wish. Hehe! , Thanks for the good laugh.

Garnaqsi;846937 wrote: ^ But the existence of religious freedom or lack thereof is an issue of culture. Whether the culture of a particular society admits the existence of religious freedom is one of the merits of that culture. Your attempt at classifying this as 'religion' is very strange to me. Her assertion that Islam allows for religious freedoms and the building of Churches in Muslim countries does not mean she negates that the issue of religious freedoms is inextricably tied up with culture, which vary widely in terms of their oppenness and tolerance. In fact she states that if a certain Muslim country doesn't allow the bulding of churches it doesnt reflect the teachings of Islam, from which you shouldve easily been able to deduce her affirmation of the role of culture. It's ironic to speak of social injustice while portraying the existence of homosexuality in society as a negative aspect; or, for that matter, viewing increasing abortion rates as an indication of a crumbling society when it in fact might be pointing towards the opposite. Well for us Muslims, we don't subscribe to notions of moral relativity and complete laissez faire in the realm of social freedoms, because we have an objective (because it is divine) source from which we derive our moral and ethical precepts. So we believe in social justice within the legal frameworks of Islam, thus there is nothing ironic about wat she said, only that her definition of social justice is different than yours. None of the things you have stated -- some of which don't even seem to be relevant -- show how Western culture isn't superior in the sense of being more progressive (as was the argument). In fact almost everything she listed demonstrates the fallacy of western cultural superiority, even when judged from a secular humanist standpoint. Can you explain how it doesn't? It's not by coincidence that almost all progress in science, philosophy, mathematics, and almost all fields of knowledge was made in the West. I remember reading that Harvard alone had more scientific publications in 2005 than the entire Arab world. But this has nothing to do with the issue being discussed. The Nazis almost took over all of europe because of their scientific and technological supremacy, yet they were a rascist, murderous regime that cannot even begin to be described as progressive. Also, you must be well aware that all civilazations in this world wax and wane and that at one time not too long ago it was the Islamic world that was basking in the glories of a golden age, while Europe wallowed in the barbarity of the dark ages. It's only after the relatively recent industrial revolution in Europe that the West's hegemony was cemented, and we are already seeing the signs if its gradual demise and the rise of Asia and its partners (BRICS, etc). On that basis it would seem to me, while one might identify with Arab culture for sentimental or of course religious reasons, the value is with the Western one from a purely objective standpoint. I personally do no indentify with Arab culture, because simply im not an Arab, and I even resent it to a degree because its slowly supplanting aspects of my Somali culture, which I absolutely love. And i even agree with u that many aspects of western culture are superior to that of the arabs, like the issue of blatant racism for example. But nonetheless I disagree with u that the Western world is more culturally superior to that of the Eastern world, even including many non Muslim nation. I for one will be taking care of my parents in old age and will expect my kids to do the same for me, and I have my Somali/Islamic culture to thank for that. I would love to see where you end up in your 70's garnaqsi...lol. .

So aadan brings facts from books, the same books ur uncles relied on to write their distorted history mind u, and somehow he's a sick clannist who's quoting unreliable sources? Somehow he's the revisionist, even though hes quoting verbatim? Y weren't these books unreliable or 'gaalo books' when Aw Jaamac and the others utilized them? I just don't follow that logic. Wallahi if my clan had changed history to magnify their exploits and belittle those of others, i'd be the first to stand up against it. All of u arguing with Aadan have proven that ur delusional and selfish, who have no sense of justice, and ur calls for Soomaalinimo and Soomaaliwayn r nuthing but empty slogans.

loooooool, it's hilarious but sad at the same time. Dadku wacyi galin farabadan bay u baahan yihiin. June 26 iskaba daa inay gartaane, inay kala waynaato May 18 bay ahayd.

Shabaab are messed up, but cowards? lol, i dont think so. I agree with MMA on this one.

I just finished listening to the interview, wow this lady is a real geesiyad. I have a lot of respect for her.

Walaal, af soomaaliga marka la qoroyo 'dh' da reer waqooyigu ma 'r' bay isu badalysaa? Masalan, kalmadda 'xadhig' ma waxa ka saxsan 'xarig'? Mise xeer la isku waafaqsanyahay kama dajisna oo labaduba waa sax?

Horta reer khaatmu in taariikhda daraawishta isku keli yeelaan ma 'aha. Ninkii sayid maxamad abdalle la aasaasay daraawiishta wuxuu ahaa suldaanka H.Y., wuxuuna ku aasanyahay qalcadda takeex sidaan maqlay. La taliyaha sayidkuna wuxu ahaa nin H.J. ah. Markaa reer aan soo halgamin ma jiro ee taa ha la ogaado.

Somaliland go'doonka ha ka soo baxdo. We are witnessing the rebirth of somalia, and wat better event to reignite the untamable passions of Somali nationalism and serve as an impetus for a full somali recovery than a union. If Siilaayno is brave enough, he can go down in history as one of the best Somali leaders ever.

The international community is not gonna recognize Somaliland, so 're-union' is inevitable. Somaliland politicians need to tell the shacab the truth in order to brace them for the coming reality.

Kool kat, wat ur husband did is commendable, in that it was temporary and done to ensure the best interests of ur kids. But like juxa said, its just unbecoming of a man to permanently stop working.

And the liberal agenda to fully emasculate men under the guise of progessiveness continues. Anoo nool maan is aaso intaan xaaskayga quutul daruuriga aan shaaha ku cabi lahaa ka sugayo.

Looool @ as real as ur doctorate

^ Ameen

aad baad ugu mahadsantahay sheekooyinkan walaal, wax badan baan ka korodhsaday.

Hiil-Qaran taageero buuxda ayaan u hayaa. Ilma Samatar wa aqoonyahano rasmi ah oo waliba wadaniyiin ah.

Somaliland should pull their troops out of these areas, and then the gogol nabadeed that president siilaanyo is calling for will be accepted and attended by Khatumo officials and odayo dhaqameed. Until then, the gogol nabadeed and talks of peace are meaningless and can even be taken as an insult by the people of khatumo.

^ That pretty much sums it all up.

Ur right, but not everything in our beautiful culture is beautiful. This is one example where we need to completely throw out this aspect of culture and follow the way specified by Islam. Any decent man would show basic respect for the girl and her family by approaching her father/brothers/uncles. I know if a man tried sumthing like that with my sisters, lets just say i'd be roomates with 'mad dog' and 'bubba' lol.

Somali philosopher, by pre union status quo i obviously meant the 4 days somaliland stood as an independent nation. If Somalia was stripped of international recognition today, would it's leaders not 'beg' the leading nations of the world for recognition in order to provide a better life for their ppl? U think somaliland lobbies for international recognition because its a favourite pastime? Come on man, get real.

^ ma jeclaan lahayd hablaha aad walaalaha tihiin ama kuwa aad dhashay inuu nin iska kaxaysto isagoon ku waydiisan? Dagaalka aad diinta kula jirtid yuuna hypocrite kaa dhigin, ileen hada waxaad difaacaysa wax aanad adiguba u dul qaadan lahayn, waa hadii aad dhiig iyo us leedahay.

^ Unfortunately ur right walaalo.

Tru, u do have a right to discuss it for the reasons u have given. But everything else i said still stands .

Y do u guys care about these Arabs, they dont give a s**** about us and our suffering. Do u think any Saudi Arabian forum out there will discuss the demise of any of our important figures or politicans? Hell no. He's dead, and now xisaab baa sugaysa, and haduu Soomaali wadankiisa ku dhibaataysan dhibay Ilaahay baa ka goyn doonaa, and if not may Allah have mercy on him.