Che -Guevara;893172 wrote: A Somali will never be Kenyan or Ethiopian even if they see themselves as one. That said, NFD best option NOW is Kenya. Haha..the usual over-rhymed brouhaha about nothing.

Haatu;893085 wrote: tutu, after all this, do you still feel Kenyan and do you see the future of our region in Kenya? Was that rhetoric? Of course I still feel Kenyan. Unlucky me, I haven't had the opportunity to feel otherwise, my Garissa-born-cum-Mogadishu-patriot brother. On the future of our region in Kenya, I see hope. Hopeful that one day our rights will be accommodated at all levels just as any other Kenyan.

Apophis;893017 wrote: It's not unheard of: 1963 mutiny , possible mutiny in 2003 , let us remember the 1982 coup attempt as well . Yes. And all these mutinies were organised and commanded by well-known senior military officials and civil leaders, among others prime minster Odinga (82 coup) and spent years in jail for it. Hence, my premise. The 2003 was just a hearsay. Won't qualify as such. Enough with the patronising tone I was trying to be generous here, to share the little I comprehend. I'm well are of what constitutes a government; you're not the only one to have learned this nonsense, so please spare me. All-knowing yet posing such lame questions;) That's very nice of him to "acknowledge" something without offering a shred of evidence (yes I understand he's blogging and thus his evidence will be low but he must provide something). Before he gets to the individual who allegedly gave the order he must first establish his first assertion i.e. the government was behind it. Now this is heading nowhere, isn't it? Have tried my best and now give up, but figure out this simple premise; soldiers come under or belong to governments. One of the apparatus of the government. Thus, the army is a governmental institution? Hence, why, Ahmednasir (and I, for the best part of last week) saying the soldiers' actions are as much as the government's. It's now for you to decipher that! The government will ultimately be responsible for the actions of the squadies , as accepted by Raila, but that's not to say the government gave ascent for the attacks. The two are not the same Having an arm of government conceding responsibility or lack of it, one is trying to establish if the latter is the case.

No, Yusuf Haji won't be sacked.

NGONGE;893011 wrote: ^^ And the president is going to deny it then take steps to correct the matter and prevent any such incidents from taking place in the future. These steps are more than likely to consist of the sacking of the defence minister (the alleged Garrisa born Yusuf Haji). That's the usual in this end of the wood. The bucket never stops anywhere. Aid intended for school children can disappear without trace, and the minister in charge is not responsible. Resignations are unheard of in Kenya. Few court hearings without convictions and voila! The issue is trashed and life goes on. This is no different. We're just fond of taking advantage in the pleasure of finger-pointing. This stuff is better than fiction! Which part was fictional? Of course it's better than fiction. It's real.

The Minister for Defence, Mr Yusuf Haji, a native of Garissa, is rightly embarrassed by this incident. He stated that he did not authorise the operation and was unaware of what was happening. This raises a fundamental issue. First it rules out the possibility that the operation was a riotous action by the local commander and his soldiers. It is more probable that the President gave the order. The buck stops with the President whenever members of the Army achieve success or commit acts of infamy. It's atypical of Kenyan army undertaking a mission without orders. Never did they dare or can they dare defy their superiors. That's an inherent belief Kenyan have as far as history is concerned. I've vocalized this many times.

^^ A government consists of different departments with different duties and responsibilities. Every department is independent of the other. But every department's actions ,though independent in it's implementation, are the government's actions, fahamtu? Now, Ahmednasir acknowledges the government being behind the rampage but asks who (the particular department or individual) gave this particular order to maim people of Garissa. Was it the chief-of-staff (the president), the minster of defense, the provincial security team , the district security team or the local commander at Garissa Garrison? All in all the buck lies with the president at the end of the day as the head of the government.

So, who gave orders for the Garissa operation? By AHMEDNASSIR ABDULLAHI Posted Saturday, November 24 2012 at 17:3 Two incidents that portray Kenya’s security forces in a very unflattering and revolting light occurred in the past two weeks. Although the incidents took place in Samburu and Garissa counties, the cause, the consequences and the official reaction by the government couldn’t have been more starkly different. In Samburu, assailants believed to be from Turkana County killed more than 40 police officers in cold blood. Apart from trying to prosecute politicians from the Turkana community, there were no reprisals or even an attempt to pursue perpetrators of the heinous crime. The government meekly kept mum. In the Garissa incident, unknown assailants believed to be members of the Al-Shabaab terrorist group killed three soldiers. The government’s reaction was swift and brutal. Soldiers from the local army garrison went on the rampage. Live bullets were fired indiscriminately on an unarmed civilian population. Members of security forces set on fire residential houses, a factory, shops, hotels, and a market. Whereas there was killing, looting and burning of property in Garissa, in Turkana, the government showed commendable restraint. So why did the government act so swiftly and violently in Garissa and so timidly in Samburu? The answer lies in the history of the Northern Frontier District (NFD). It must be appreciated that Kenya’s security forces have a long history of committing gross human rights violations against civilian populations in northern Kenya. Some of these atrocities are well documented. In 1982, Garissa town was torched after bandits killed a police officer in the town. In 1984, security forces killed scores of people in the infamous Wagalla massacre in Wajir. Another smaller massacre -- the Malkamerey in Mandera -- also occurred in northern Kenya. It is well known that northern Kenya was under emergency law between 1963 and 1992, when the Constitution deleted the emergency powers of the government over northern Kenya. So when the government let loose security forces on an unarmed civilian population to seek revenge for the killing of three soldiers, the security men were acting in the context of their historical transgression against civilians in northern Kenya. The Garissa incident also provided an opportune moment for the government to send a strong signal and remind the people of Garissa of their place in the country. The message being that after almost 50 years of independence, northern Kenya and its inhabitants are not truly part of Kenya. The Army is seen by a majority of inhabitants of northern Kenya as an occupying Army. It is not seen as an indigenous force that is part of the local people. The Kenyan Army also sees as its primary duty to protect the rest of the country from inhabitants of northern Kenya. That has been the Army’s strategic understanding of its role in the defence of the country. A number of troubling issues arise in the Garissa incident. Who ordered the security forces to undertake the Garissa operation? The Minister for Defence, Mr Yusuf Haji, a native of Garissa, is rightly embarrassed by this incident. He stated that he did not authorise the operation and was unaware of what was happening. This raises a fundamental issue. First it rules out the possibility that the operation was a riotous action by the local commander and his soldiers. It is more probable that the President gave the order. The buck stops with the President whenever members of the Army achieve success or commit acts of infamy. He is their Commander-in-Chief. In the military command chain, he is the ultimate authority. So did President Kibaki order the operation? An urgent answer to this question is needed. Ahmednasir Abdullahi is the publisher, Nairobi Law Monthly ahmednasir@yahoo.com A frequent blogger of Nation's newspaper. A lawyer and former High Court Jugde of Somali origin.

Haven't Al-shabaab done worse than this? Didn't they cut innocent peoples' hands? Stoned little girls to death? Bombed school children? Or is it ok for Al-shabaab to do that because they are 'Somalis'? Double hypocrisy eh? Aren't they those who soiled our religion with their unjust pseudo-religious doctrines? As much as I am against unfortunate pain inflicted on another human soul, I am inclined to believe Al-shabaab deserve no less than this. They actually deserve American water boarding! PS; This is in Somalia. The guy seems to be swahili-speaking al-shabaab member. One of his answers were; He left other members of Al-shabaab in Burgabo.

" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen> Kenya's Prime minister says government behind Garissa's rampage and should pay up.

Calm down, brother. Let some online posts not get into your head. I or Garissa people for that matter are in no way looking for sympathy let alone on an online forum. I think we're all here just to take a leap from our otherwise hectic daily-life and air our stress out. That's all. Somaliaonline won't let you gain an ounce in anything.

Apophis;892360 wrote: ^^ Looks like you're starting to see through the crocodile tears and fake support for NEP. These folks couldn't care less if the whole population of NEP is taken out unless they can use that to attack Kenya. What are you on about?

STOIC;892075 wrote: Hahaha@ Insurance in Garissa. Ridiculously condescending, don't you think? How do you think all the vehicles (4x4s are abundant btw) are insured? I am assuming you're aware one can't drive without insurance in Kenya. Yeah Gaaris tii aad ogeyd ma'ahan. Watu wamendelea. Actually Kenya tii add ogeyd ma'ahan. I guess you're still stuck with images of the 90s judging from your writings.

Apophis;892305 wrote: I'm only negating wild claims made in this thread. What wild claims are you alluding to?

Apophis;892305 wrote: You keep making positive claims with nothing to back them up What positive claims? That rape, loot and killings took place. We know the Turkana operation has the government consent thus if the security forces attack the raiders, knowing full well women and children are at risk, that would be top down malice. You have to show proof that the Garissa attacks have been planned like the Turkana operation and then your assertion maybe accepted First of all, Turkana's operation wasn't approved by the parliament as required by the law. But their leaders were out early enough to publicize the mischief KDF were planning and thus their quietness. Secondly, time and again am telling you soldiers go by orders, at least in Kenya...You can question whether the orders were arbitrary or planned. Either way does that change or justify their actions in Garissa? By the way, I have already posted the military's spokesman acknowledging that a platoon was sent out and took part in the operation. There are investigations ordered today by the president as to apprehend those behind it. Kenya may not be Somalia but it is still an African country and and must be understood in that context. Are you saying it's unheard of the security forces breaking the law wantonly? Never. It's unheard of in Kenya's history. Actually it's unheard of soldiers marching without a commander. Even in countries where there's a mutiny, they always have a head. A leader. Look back the recent chaos in Mali..Soldiers don't just head out like headless chicken. So stop making such wild assumptions. I don't have to provide any evidence, I'm only negating wild claims made in this thread. The burden of evidence is on the shoulders of those making positive claims. It's on you to prove that they were not ordered as you are claiming so.

^^Are you missing the irony here? In your quote it says avoiding women and children..Were children and women of Garissa spared? What evidence? Didn't I address that in my earlier posts? Have you ever heard, in Kenya's history, soldiers going on rampage on their own volition? Without orders? This is not Somalia, there's a functioning government and law and order. Can you provide evidence that there was mutiny? I see you've a penchant for believing that. Mise iska dhici un bey kaa tahay?

^^^Source http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000071233&pageNo=1&story_title=Fleeing-bandits-threaten-to-shoot-down-military-choppers

Fleeing bandits threaten to shoot down military choppers Military waiting for consult with Turkana elders SHARE THIS STORY Email this story Email this story Updated Thursday, November 22 2012 at 11:28 GMT+3 The meeting between elders and the security agents is expected to endorse military airstrikes or pursuing the bandits from ground using the GSU and the Regular police who have been combing the area. Rift valley PC Osman Warfa and his PPO John M’mbijjiwe and other security officials have been holding meetings with the elders to plead with their Moran’s to return the animals and guns. And in Nairobi, Internal Security Minister Katoo ole Metito told Parliament only military pilots are present in Baragoi to help in the hunt for raiders who killed over 40 police officers. The minister was fielding questions from MPs who queried the move to deploy the military without seeking Parliament approval. But the minister said the National Security Council, chaired by President Kibaki only authorised the military to help the police in the aerial surveillance. “The council authorised Kenya Defence Forces to assist the police in the operation and there are only two military planes and their pilots in Baragoi, no other military officers are present,” Mr Metito told Parliament. MPs expressed concern at the turn of events that led to the killing of the officers with Ndhiwa MP Augostino Neto criticising the Government for deploying officers with little experience to such harsh terrain as Suguta Valley. On his part Wajir West MP Adan Keynan blamed the intelligence agency for sleeping on the job. Turkana Central MP Ekwee Ethuro claimed the Government was targeting one community in the operation, as his Kilgoris counterpart Gideon Konchella alleged retired officers could be having a hand in the raid. Although, joint units of the police and the Kenya Defence Forces have begun a massive security operation, they are yet to strike the bandits who have fled from the valley and are now heading towards Nachola area, Three aircrafts have been undertaking aerial surveillance, as plans to deploy ground troops get under way. However, the joint GSU and the Regular police are still combing Suguta valley to find the body of an Anti-Stock Theft officer Gucha Woche that is still missing and believed to be dead by now since the Saturday attack by the bandits. During the ambush, Woche was carrying a plastic water jerican on his back. Police believe that even his body will not be found, it is this water jerican that will be used as the lead to get his uniforms Bal kawarama waxaasi. They are LITERALLY begging the bandits that killed over 40 policemen to return the guns and not shoot down coppers. The bandits are actually calling the shots. Compare what they did to defenseless women and children. Waa cowards who are only brave enough to confront unarmed women and children. Apophis, what do you make of this? You were claiming Turkana's were massacred. Is it not clear now that Somalis are treated differently? Pleas read the article from page 1 to see loads of calaacal by the security forces...I quoted page 2.

Oz;891932 wrote: Guys tutu is on point, take notes Ps: tutu endelea kuwacharaza..lol Niachie hawa, nitawaelimisha! Wengine hawana kidokezo lolote kuhusu siasa ya Kenya ila kupaka matope wenyeji wa kaskazini mashariki.

This 'news' has been around for days now but no official confirmation yet, waa un war lugeed amongst Somalis. I guess its a salient way to instill some confidence in people, notably to rebuild Haji's reputation as people have angrily voiced disappointment in him. What we need is official reports and publicly-known prosecution against these people not some secret arrests. But there is civil litigation going on. PS; The man in the picture is a prominent business man. He lost one of his tall hotel buildings in the mayhem. He was also mishandled and dragged in the mud along with the area MP during the operation. On the other hand, KDF have accepted ordering a platoon to take part in the operation but denies any wronging. HomeNews News Military denies torching Garissa town Share Bookmark Print Rating By NATION REPORTERS Posted Thursday, November 22 2012 at 00:34 In Summary The operation followed the killing of three soldiers shot by unknown assailants at a tyre repair point in the town on Monday. KDF’s information operations officer Colonel Cyrus Oguna on Wednesday termed the media reports that the military had raped, tortured, looted, killed women and children and burnt business and residential property as malicious and lies crafted to taint the credibility of KDF. SHARE THIS STORY The Kenya Defence Forces has dismissed reports accusing them of criminal activities during an operation in Garissa town. The operation followed the killing of three soldiers shot by unknown assailants at a tyre repair point in the town on Monday. (READ: Garissa erupts in violence after soldiers’ killing) KDF’s information operations officer Colonel Cyrus Oguna on Wednesday termed the media reports that the military had raped, tortured, looted, killed women and children and burnt business and residential property as malicious and lies crafted to taint the credibility of KDF. “Allegations suggesting KDF committed atrocities in Garissa are false and must cease,” he said. The three soldiers were shot dead in the company of two colleagues. The two, Col Oguna said, did not fight back to avoid collateral damage since people had started scampering for safety, following the gunshots. “After the incident was reported at the camp, a platoon was dispatched to secure the vehicle and bodies of the fallen soldiers,” said the officer. Immediately, locals informed the soldiers that the assailants had fled to Bula Mzuri village and a joint operation by the Kenya Police and KDF was launched. “The KDF surrounded the village while the police carried out the actual search. The search recovered a communication device,” he said, noting that the exercise was called off at 4.30pm. Col Oguna said riots erupted in the town after the three soldiers were killed and police had to fire teargas canisters to disperse them. The following morning, attackers fired at the Garissa military camp but the soldiers said they did not return fire but moved to secure the camp and the airstrip . http://www.nation.co.ke/News/Military-denies-torching-Garissa-town--/-/1056/1626290/-/64cs3n/-/index.html

There's hope despite the recent obstacle, specially after full implementation of the county governments. Yep NEP stands a better chance in Kenya.

I feel some sort of awakening here. There have been awakening for sometime now. Only that the power that be ensure vocal and staunch leaders like Billow Kerow (second speaker) are not re-elected. This guy was a living-hell to the government when he was in parliament. But they conspired against him just like they've done to other vocal leaders from that region. It has become an accepted rumor that the house on the hill decides who the people elect through corruption. Making sure stubborn leaders are shunned.

Apophis;891733 wrote: ^^All we can for certain right now is that we don't know anything We do know for certain that KDF committed gruesome acts against the inhabitants of Garissa including rape, torture, property and looting of millions of shillings. Where their orders came from their local commander or from the highest office in Kenya is of no value and won't heal wounds. In all scenarios, the responsibility rests with their seniors. Lets wait for the facts. Waiting facts from where? From the parliamentary committee? If that's the case, see you in 2030 still waiting for the facts.

xiinfaniin;891765 wrote: A safe rule of thump is when civilian lives are lost in the hands of law enforcement ( the army in this case), one should always be on the side of civilians. In Africa, and everywhere, authority tend to cross the line in these situations. True.

Guys, cut the guy some slack. He's backtracked from some of the statements he erroneously made on Garissa and Kenya in general in the other thread. He's just misguided on Kenya's politics. He thinks Somalis in Kenya constantly and wrongly wave the racism and discrimination card as foreigners are fond of doing in the west. He has no recollection of the historical connotations that need to be considered in Gsa's case. Otherwise, I believe his statements are for debate's sake. At least, he doesn't resort to obscenities when debating as some do.