'Liibaan';722549 wrote: Acudubilaah stop the hypocrisy, O. somali, you are a clan-secessionist, you advocating for Somaliland/snm clan-state, you support qabyaalad, and at the same you saying "Dugsi ma leh Qabyaalad waxay dumiso mooyaanee" waa xaqiiq. snm/Somaliland, Hiraanland, Puntland, SSC, Maakhir, Awdal, and Glamudug are all part of the problem, The solution is United Somalia, the World rejected to recognize snm-clan state, because clan-recognition will open " Pandora's box in all Somalia and all Africa". In your moment of attempted defence mode, you have inadvertedly confirmed that you're a tribalist, which was clear for everyone to see anyway. You didn't deny being a qabilist but accused me of hypocracy - that I shouldn't call you out on your qabiilist tendencies. If you want to know my opinion, click here . I will remind you: "Dugsi ma leh Qabyaalad waxay dumiso mooyaanee". Cheers.

Subxaan. I simply cannot understand how anyone can be that tribalistic, how many times did he refer to 'clan' or a particular clan. I don't see why some see clan as a solution when we all know "Dugsi ma leh Qabyaalad waxay dumiso mooyaanee". It is the problem, not the solution.

It is an industry. They[bantus] get training for their armies; weapons they'd otherwise never afford; experience they'd otherwise never get; with the cherry on top being the money their soldiers are paid, of-course saving their governments money.

^ Both sides have a vested interest to a peaceful solution. --- I would say that Somaliland, in the absence of a powerful sponser nation, perhaps lacks the elite and strategists which would be intrumental in achieving its aims.

I can't help but not to be surprised.

AfricaOwn, shall I send you a copy in the post?:D

Som@li;722365 wrote: Bro, I first believe you fake, duplicate, but if you are for real, and you don't understand the basic issue, then you should not be talking part in this discussion, and asking too nonsense questions, You have being putting out your view, or declaring the some groups are wrong, that is too early, Go, and do a proper research , and understand the situation first, But stop DOQON waraysiga, iyo AFKA kala qaad an ilkaa haaga tiriyo. Thanks for the advice bro. I have printed it out and out it on my wall.

~ 350k-1,000,000 http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/somalia.htm waa qalbijab.

Then there are countless more killed by floods, droughts, hunger, disease, the 10,000 killed by the u.s invasion, those killed by the ethio invasions, those killed by clan-warfare. Even today they are dying in multiples of tens. Then there is the conflict in Somali Galbeed. ah I almost forgot the hundreds if not thousands perished in the high seas and died crossing the sahara desert.

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/massacre.html 1988-2004: Somalia's civil war (550,000)

Somalia (1991 et seq.): 500,000 [make link] Civil War (estimates arranged chronologically) Encarta: 50,000 killed in fighting and 300,000 dead of starvation (in 23 months following Jan. 1991) Washington Post: 350,000 (12 Feb. 1993) CDI: 350,000 (1978-97) War Annual 8 (1997): 500,000 14 Dec. 1998 Vancouver Sun: 400,000 deaths from war, famine and disease since 1991. 300,000 in 1991-92. 23 May 1999 Denver Rocky Mtn News: 350,000 by end of 1992; 1M total to 1999 Ploughshares 2000: 350,000 IRIN, a UN humanitarian information unit: 300,000 killed during 14 years of war [http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2004/11/mil-041105-irin03.htm] Bradley S. Klapper, “Internally Displaced Somalis Face Widespread Abuses: Campaigners”, November 24, 2004, Associated Press: 500,000 “Failed state: 15 years of horror in Somalia”, June 5, 2006, Agence France Presse: 500,000 The Nation, “No Running Away From Somalia”, June 29, 2007, Africa News: 500,000

The death toll was estimated to be 400,000 Somalis dead - and that was only in the 23 months following Jan. 1991 only. How many more have died and been killed since? How many thousands/hundred of thousands?

I will lay out my viewpoint for all to see. Hopefully this will rid the annoying taunts by those who resort to taunts when they cannot argue their points across. Ideally, I would like a united, strong, affluent and non-tribal Somalia. This, for me, is not abstract but with purpose. In other words - I don't see this as an end in itself but a means to an end. So what is the end to which we are/should be stiving? Do we want a united Somalia just for the sake of having a united Somalia or does it serve a pupose? Does Somalilanders want independence just for the sake of disunity/as an end in itself or does it serve a purpose/is it a means to an end? In the wider context of the regional and international political arena, how realistic is this? Lastly, are there other ways to achieve the end to which we are/should be striving? If there are those who want independence how and when can we re-unite the country and if this is the most strategical and effective way to achieve the, as yet undefined, end to which we are/should be striving? I will answer these questions. First of all I want to remind you all "Dugsi ma leh Qabyaalad waxay dumiso mooyaanee" ----- "dadka kama yaraateene, ways dabarjaraysaane". So what are the end to which we [somalis] should be aspiring ? I think peace, sovereignty and development for all Somali people in the Somali Peninsula should be something to aspire for. To achieve this, if we are talking practically, the various Somali camps are going to have to reconcile and understand each others objectives and interests; this, at some point, is going to require that someone somwhere makes some concessions/sacrifice. I also think that the different camps should be judged by the results that their camp has produced (for its people but also how it has affected others). Division, also, is also not an end in itself but [iMO] is a by-product of the current political realities on the ground. I was listening to the BBC the other day when that SNM guy was asked what ku kalifay Somaliland to declare independence and he said: when the south formed their own government; they also said, when asked why they are not negotiating with the south, who should we negotiate with, who is the government (TFG, al-shabaab, Puntland, Galmudug...etc)? Somaliland and Puntland have become stronger and stronger the longer the south has been in turmoil and has been finding it difficult to form a government (20 years). Quite frankly, those two entities are more of a government to their peoples than Somalia proper has had in 20 years and this does give them some bargaining power and support of their people. Some are trying to bring back Somaliland[ers] by force, name-calling and attempts to humiliate them which in reality is only pushing them farther away; instead of a stick, try using a carrot, see what happes. If you have no carrots then you are only left with a stick, which is unlikely to work. A saying goes along the lines of miro geed ku aal, ha u qubin kuwa guntiga kuugu xidhan. But in this case, there are not even any miro on the tree but instead pills of death and destruction. So if me not part-taking in name-calling somaliland means some of you label me as "secessionist who wants to divide Somalia into mini-clan states.", so be it. If Somaliland and Puntland, in contrast to the south, were not peaceful with relative law and order; in particular if Somaliland was not peaceful, stable, democratic and not shown its long term (20 years) political resillience with successive governments, I would not be inclined to think that perhaps they should have their independence if better anables their governemnt. If today the Somalis there [of various clans] are not living in peace and their children are going to schools I would not be inclided to think that perhaps their government should be independent if it better enables their government. Whether Somaliland is independent or not, should be determined by a referendum and it is upto Somalia whether we present a viable alternative. Personally, I have lost confidence in both the TFG and al-shabaab and quite frankly the former is only marginally better than the latter. Every time there was a new 'government', a new speaker, a new PM, a new or a new movement there would be a glimmer of hope of a restoration of law and order. When in 2006 the ICU made major gains against lawlessness and and later its head became the President, there suddenly was not a glimmer but a ray of hope. This hope, every time, failed to materialise into results and thus I have adopted a wait and see strategy and don't even bother talking about that political mess. Personally, the way the situation is currently, if I was from Somaliland, I would also opt for independence. I see Somaliland like a smaller version and case study of how Somalia will one day (inshallah) be (in peace and recovering). If they are able to unite all the people living in Somaliland, they will achieve great things, together. If they cannot for some reason unite these people, it will, at least for me, be the final nail in the coffin for Somalis as it will show that no matter how far you go, even after twenty years of apparent progress, Somalia is Somalia; divided, qabilistic and stuck. It will be one more thing destroyed by qabyaalad. Soo... a case study to watch, for Somalia but also for Somali galbeed. One thing i fear from what is going on up north is the tribalising of the politics and people and the division following on from that. If you push and push and push people away from each other on the basis of clan e.g. "awdal" "sscc" "makhir" and your "somaliland" interpretation", it is simply not going to work in the long term in terms of achieving any progress for anyone. If one perpetually links political differences to clan differences you are going to make a whole lot of people oppose each other than would otherwise be the case. For example if you represent everyone that is not SSC, AWDal and makhir as anti union though some of them are pro union then you are alienating them. Vice versa if Somalilanders paint everyone that is, for example "SSC", as anti union then they are alienating some of them. IN any case, pro-unionist camps should not use clan to divide people to hope to later unite them as in the process they will create real and lasting hate that will have side-effects and will shape the future. Otherwise in future, when things get hard, people will turn to what they know best and that is clan.The trend/strategy by unionists of division by clan, is wholly a wrong one; that I must stress; dividing by clan to try to re-unite later, is not basis to build a country [somalia]. Having witnessed the chaos, war, anarchy and bad governance in Somalia over the past 20+ years The various Somali camps will have to reconcile their diverging abjectives/views and as such, someone, somewhere, at some point, is going to have to makes some concessions/sacrifice and that since 'unity' is not an end in its self but a means to an end, the different camps should be judged by the results that their camp has produced (for its people but also how it has affected others). IMO Somaliland's achievements speak volumes about which camp should concede, that is if Somaliland can get all the people living within the borders it claims on board (which it may over the long term). On the question of SSC. Of course, Somaliland is not going to be peaceful or successful if it tries to force people that are against it to be part of it (imo). On the other hand, Somalia is not going to be peaceful if it tries to force Somalilanders who are against a 'union'. This should be resolved by way of a referendum. Like liibaan said, respect is a two way street. I wouldn't want Somalis to die and fight wars over anything, whether independence or something else. Also Somaliweyn, as a centralised entity governed from Mogadishu is not going to happen anytime soon, but that what I proposed [The United Somali States], could possibly be persued over the long term. Somaliweyn should never have an extremely centralised government structure as that would be its most fatal weakness and, as has happened before, its eventual downfall. In an geographic area as large as Somaliweyn, to control it all from Mogadishu would (a) be inpractical and (b) aliente the locals of the various parts of Somaliweyn. The Somali people have lost in confidence in Mogadishu as a seat of power as we are nearing the next milstone [25 years/ quarter of a century] of choas in mogadishu. It would actually complicate things further if Somaliland tried to get involed in southern politics as it would be 5.5, not 4.5 and thus the more camps there are the more disagreements there will be, the more conflict. IMO, it would also spearhead a new way to achieve Somaliweyn as it would give the [false] idea, at least to Somalia's neighbours, that with the independence of Somaliland, Somaliweyn has received a huge setback when this need not be the case. I propose 'The United Somali States' comprised of Djibouti, ******/Somali Galbeed, Somaliland, Somalia and NFD. Much like the E.U/NATO I propose a strategic and high level co-operation of Somali States where a political, economic and military union/co-operation is undertaken with a joint foreign policy. Where is Somalia at now. Let's not kid ourselves by saying it is united becuase Somaliland is currently not recognised. If Somalia was peaceful, had a government etc. there would be no reason for Somaliland to want to be independence..

'Liibaan';722304 wrote: You right Som@li, I shouldn't entertain Silly Questions, Odey Somali is a secessionist who wants to divide Somalia into mini-clan states. I ask few questions that you are finding difficult to answer and you resort to calling me a "secessionist who wants to divide Somalia into mini-clan states." Let's not be childish now yaa Liibaan. I asked the questions so that I can get a better understanding of your viewpoint. As for mini-caln states, you were the one who said he wouldn't mind 20-30 somali clan countries. 'Liibaan';722304 wrote: Some are not interested in peace, equality, or justice, and they are hypocrites who want a self-determination and freedom for themselves, and at same time they want to attack, invade, occupy, and oppress others, but it is impossible. If this was directed at me then i'm intrigued how you derived this from the two questions that I asked you. Cajiib.

Som@li;722295 wrote: Liibaan, Don't entertain "these silly questions from OdaySomali loool @ silly questions. What's silly about my question haha

Google chrome crashes too much and slows down your computer. In fact, my late laptop's blue screen episodes did not start untill I had installed the cursed google chrome. I know of another person whose pc was killed by google chrome. IE is slow compared to the other two. Firfox is simply the best and without fault. Especially firefox 4 is fast and it has to be the best browser around.

Again? Subxanallah there was one there last year. Qiyamah is indeed near (imo).

'Liibaan';722273 wrote: I don't think clans are political parties, but the reality on the ground is Somali politics is all about conflict between clans, meaning somali cvil war was clan war. SNM/Somaliland, Puntland, Awdal, SSC, Maakhir, Galmudug, Udub, Kulmiye, and most somali political groups are basically Clan based entities. o.k I have two questions now. 1) do you think that is a bad thing/problem 2) what implications does this have for Somalis/Somali politics/SOmalia . --- Xaaji the reason why I asked you to remove it is because I knew that it would turn the whole thread into a picture/video thread rather than a civil discussion. PLEASE STOP POSTING VIDEOS AND PICTURES PEOPLE. mAKE A POINT USING YOUR WORDS OR NOT AT ALL.

Xaaji please remove the videos from the thread. They are unnecessary.

Liibaan, do you think that becuase someone is from a particular clan he/she is predispositioned to believe in or have a particular political view. Do you think that clans are political parties ? I am too lazy to make the elaborate point that I would like to make so for those of you who get the question please do answer, those who don't, forget I ever asked.

^^ The song is not really militant. Now that I look at it the pictures are a bit intense though. I posted it more than 12 hours ago so i can't really edit or remove it now.

Taleexi;722242 wrote: OdaySomali : Maad saaxiib mawqifkaaga cadaysid. Haddii the reincarnation of United Somalia isn't in your vocabulary and you reject vehemenly the mini clan states ... I personally see there is nothing in between but somehow you seem someone has a third option in mind. Would you please mind sharing?.... Teeda kale, what other username do you use on SOL ? I have no 'Mawqif', just my opinions. If you're referring to my ab ove comment then that was more of a question than a statement. Anyway, my other username is ...... , ... . . . are you ready?.. . . . . . . "Taleexi"! But seriously, what makes you think I have another account, I thought everyone was only allowed one (I don't see what the point in have multiple woul be anyway). Iminka waan Shakiyay, i'm wodering how many of you poeple have multiple accounts.

How is the TFG going to win the hearts and minds of Al-shabaab supporters/sypathisers/soldiers even if it won or makes great gains in the war between the two groups. The presumption here is that the shacab who support Al-shbaab do so because they agree with the ideological stance of A/S. So does the TFG need to become more like Al-shabaab. Note: the TFG, as far as i'm aware, is all for implementing Shariah law.

'Liibaan';722206 wrote: In reality Somali problems can be easily solved if Somalis are willing to respect each other, and ready to compromise. I believe all Somali people can coexist peacefully within ONE entity Somalia/Somaliweyn. If one region like Somaliland/Northwest want to separate from Somalia and leave the union, that is fine, their wish should be respected . But also I expect also my neighbours (Somaliland) to respect the wishes of SSC people to have their own SSC State of Somalia and remain part of United Somalia. ..... I think I am reasonable and fair person. I believe the Golden Rule “One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself”, and in Islam we have a hadith “None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.” —An-Nawawi's Forty Hadith 13 Good points and well said. 'Liibaan';722206 wrote: Unity is always better than division, United we stand, divided we fall. But If Somali people cannot share one-entity and country, then we should respect if Hergaisa, Burca, and Barbara want to have a country called “Somaliland”. Similarly, we should respect if Las Anod, Buhoodle, Taleex, Yaqoori, Boocame, widhwidh, and Xudun want to have a country called “SSC”. We should respect if Borame and Zeylac want to have a country called “Awdal” , and also we respect if Las Qorey, Badhan, and Dhahar want to have a country called Maakhir. If Somalis want to have 20 or 30 countries, no problem. (p. 56) Just to clarify, so you would [only] accept either a united Somalia or clan states? (and nothing else)

I am impressed by the civility of the ongoing discussion and some really good points are being raised/discussed. Keep it going ladies and gents.