Uchi, I don't hate any one. It is up to the citizens of Somaliland to decide if they want to remain with Somalia. The last referendum that was done was not supervised by the international community. More than likely a new one will have to be done to make the divorce legal. If the people decide to stay with Somalia who am I to say no? lol Somaliland is a democracy. One man one vote.

Che, this is where you are wrong. The former Somali Republic was formed by two parts. The State of Somaliland and the State of Somalia. Go and read the act of union that wasn't even ratified by both parliaments. This is why the talks are structured in a manner of Somalia on one side and Somaliland on the other, ie the two sides that made up the former Somali Republic. The international community is working to see if Somaliland and Somalia can either agree on a union or separate amicably. You should listen to your president, he mentions this repeatedly that he wants a UNION between Somaliland and Somalia that has conditions and will not be threatened by future events. He wants to renegotiate the former Somaliland-Somalia union that made up the former Somali Republic. Unfortunately for him, Somaliland doesn't want any part of it. There really isn't a place or avenue for any one else to enter these talks. So what will be the likely outcome? Somaliland will have to take another referendum in its border and if the majority of its citizens vote for Somaliland then it will legally exit the union, and if the majority decided to be with Somalia then they will remain in the union of the former Somali Republic. There really isn't any room for clans to get in the way of this train.

Stoic, good points there you raised.

People don't take your frustrations out on me. lol Take it up with Turkey and your government who gave up everything but the kitchen sink.

^ Saffers, I see you moving the goal post. In your original post when you thought those words were not on the official government page, you were like where is it in the official web page? lol :D

Saffers, you're right, but it doesn't mean you can't do both.

Che, if we leave it to Somalis alone, lol Somalia and Somaliland have already separated in 1991. Its only on paper and International Community arena that we are tangled in a dispute. The past 22 years, the issue of Somaliland has been missing in the International community scene. These talks with international community as witnesses have drastically elevated the standing of Somaliland and diplomatically neutered any attempts from Somalia to use the international community to try and isolate Somaliland. We are in a new phase in the Somaliland-Somalia dispute. Lets all fasten our seat belts.

Che you're clutching at straws. lol The USA recognizes Somalia, even if Turkey didn't it doesn't really matter. However, to have Somaliland referred to as a Republic and a country by a NATO member state is profound. It signals the coming of age for Somaliland and the dawning of a new era for Somalia-Somaliland relations. The die is cast my friend. If you don't get that then I don't know what to tell you.

Xaaji, the thing about international relations is that every single comma, phrase and word has great meaning. Some here will not truly appreciate that the sitting President of Turkey used the words Republic of Somaliland and two countries in relations to Somalia & Somaliland. However, these are significant steps in enhancing Somaliland's standings in the international arena. Somaliland plight has been missing in the psyche of the international community for the past 22 years. It appears now that Somaliland's foreign policy has turned a corner. We will see whether this new trajectory bears any fruit. One thing is for sure though, the idea that a government in Mogadishu administers over Hargeisa has been put into "dustbin of history" to borrow Odweyne's words.

Che if the President of Turkey understands these talks are to reconcile these two African governments how is that not something new? The international community has become aware of the Somalia/Somaliland impasse and it is waking up to the reality in the horn of Africa that there is a dispute between two countries.

Saffers read the page and you will see it. I didn't manufacture it. Slow down Go back to that link and read the whole page.

Che-Guevara, read the bold parts.

Xaanji Xunjuf did you read the presidents remarks? Or should I bold the parts that are important? LOL Let me edit.

http://www.tccb.gov.tr/news/397/85761/turkeys-contribution-to-efforts-to-overcome-problems-between-somalia-and-somaliland.html President Abdullah Gül met with President Sheikh Mohamud of Somalia and President Ahmed Mohamed Silanyo of Somaliland at the Çankaya Presidential Palace. The three Presidents, during the meeting, which was held at the invitation of Turkey, accentuated the significance of the “Ankara Communiqué”, which aims at overcoming the existing problems between the Federal Republic of Somalia and the Republic of Somaliland through dialogue. The three Presidents discussed how to overcome the current conflicts between Somalia and Somaliland, reviewed Turkey-Africa relations which have considerably gained momentum in recent years and tackled other regional issues during their talks which Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu also attended. This meeting between Presidents Gül, Mohamud and Silanyo is regarded as the first step toward the resolution of the existing problems between the two African countries by means of dialogue and good will. As part of this objective, the “Ankara Communiqué”, which was signed by the governments of Somalia and Somaliland, is of great importance. The three Presidents underscored that Turkey’s contribution to this dialogue process between Somalia and Somaliland will continue and they also decided to hold another trilateral meeting in Istanbul within 90 days. President Mohamud of Somalia, who took office in September, 2012, had paid his first foreign visit to Turkey in December last year. Ankara Communiqué 13 April 2013 Following the meeting at Chevening House (UK) of June 20-21, 2012 and the Dubai (UAE) of June 28, 2012, President Hassan Sheikh Mohamud of the Somali Federal Republic and President Ahmed Mohamed Silanyo of Somaliland Government met on 13 April 2013 in Ankara. The meeting is hosted by the Government of Turkey at the request of the two parties. The purpose of this meeting is to reopen the dialogue after the change in the leadership of the Somali Federal Republic, and to establish a way forward for the dialogue. The two parties: 1. Expressed their commitment to the continuation of the Dialogue. 2. Endorsed the content of the Chevening house Declaration agreed on 21 June 2012, and the Dubai Statement signed on 28 June 2012. 3. Stated that the Dialogue is between the Federal Government of Somalia and the Government of Somaliland. The international community that is supporting this process will only provide facilitation when is needed. 4. Agreed to encourage and facilitate International aid and development provided to Somaliland. 5. Agreed the need to consolidate a cooperation on security sector through sharing intelligence, training as well as sharing scholarships for security sector professionals in order to become more effective in the fight against terrorism, extremism, piracy, illegal fishing toxic dumping, maritime crime and serious crime. 6. Proposed to meet within 90 days in Istanbul at a date later to be agreed by the parties. 7. Agreed to refrain from using any inflammatory language and any other act which may put the continuation of the Dialogue at risk.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/somali/audio_console.shtml?programme=som1400 The BBC program of "Maxay Kula Tahay" or the former "Falanqeynta Jimcaha" was quite interesting. It seems people's attitudes are changing in Somalia towards accepting the sovereignty of Somaliland. It is quite welcome that our neighbours are thawing from their unsustainable position of Somali Unity at all costs.

Che-Guevera, I don't think its fair to compare Faisal Ali Waraabe and Muuse Suudi Yalaxow. I honestly think he's way better than the most competent politician of Somalia.

A lot of things have changed. Somalia of 1991 is no more. You're barking up the wrong tree mate.

ElPunto, clearly the advantages are on Somaliland’s side. In fact many people including Oodweyne, Mr. Mohamed Hashi believe there is no need to even talk to Somalia as it is giving Somalia a platform to equate itself with Somaliland who is light years ahead in terms of good governance and social & human evolution. Nevertheless, in the past Somaliland has put a lot of emphasis on controlling the territory of its country. Now it is time to discuss Somaliland’s plight in the international arena. The fact Somalia has agreed to turn the clock back to 1960 by having direct talks between Somaliland on one hand and Somalia on the other screams capitulation. The weakness of Somalia is pretty evident unless you are not privy to the foreign occupation of Somalia by Ugandan, Ethiopian & Kenyan. It has its hands full. Yet, it cannot formally declare it has recognized Somaliland, because it’s very existence rests on looking like it can deliver unity not only for within the borders of Somalia, but also in the former Somali Republic. In the mean time, both sides are working on strengthening their position, and biding their time. I don’t agree as time passes it will be Somalia’s advantage for it has already gave away everything except for the kitchen sink in these preparatory talks the international community is a witness to.

These talks are not going anywhere fast. Neither side has any room to budge. Somaliland will not get their de jure recognition from Somalia. Nor will Somalia witness Somaliland sacrificing their Sovereignty for another union. So what is the objective of these talks in the first place? Well it gives everybody something to feel good about. For Somalia: The government can tell its public they‘re actively pursuing Somali Unity by engaging in direct talks with Somaliland. This will also give it some credibility in the eyes of the international community for engaging with Somaliland as opposed to wishing away the elephant in the room. This in turn would provide it continued international aid. For Somaliland: The government can explain to the public that it is actively pursuing de jure recognition of Somaliland and will make every effort to do so by even having talks with the country Somaliland has dissolved their former union. It will also give Somaliland the opportunity let the world know about the conflict between Somaliland & Somalia. This will create a narrative that Somaliland can eventually build on to further their cause. Somaliland will also benefit by getting their share of the aid directly as the trips to Turkey & UAE indicate. Then if these talks are not going to go anywhere why bother? Somaliland is strategically playing for the long haul. On their side, they have possession of the territory they claim minus a few hamlets. By paying lip service to these talks to get aid they will get to improve their economy and infrastructure and thereby strengthening Somaliland as a country. So far it has been able to resist the perils of accepting such aid by informing the UK, it will not attend the May 7th conference despite the UK’s repeated requests for Somaliland be present. It will also get the world involved in the Somaliland-Somalia impasse. This is crucial in getting Somaliland to thwart off any diplomatic pressure Somalia may have attempted by putting this conflict out there for all to witness in the international community. Somalia on the other hand doesn’t have the luxury of a strategy. They’re too busy putting out too many fires and need one less problem to deal with. They’d happily defer any serious talks with Somaliland so they can focus on the more imminent issues like Federalism, Jubaland, Al-Shabaab, creating an army, government institutions etc. The way these talks are structured, foreshadow what is to come. Ngonge & Odweyne are spot on to highlight the nuances of how these talks have started and are proceeding. Anyone who doesn’t understand the precedents that are being set with these talks and how the narrative has been changed forever is simply deluding themselves.

This is the crux of the problem you and every unionist like to reduce the issue down to one man, when it was systemic problem. Why do you think there was an attempted coup de tat in 1961? Why did Somaliland people either boycott the constitution in 1961 or return a no vote? There was abuse & neglect sister. In fact, abuse of power and denial of their basic rights. When two companies join and one of the two partners doesn't agree with the framework of how the company is to be managed but the other railroads it through and doesn't pay attention there is a significant problem. I know it is easy to just blame it on one man, but the political class of Somalia sought it fit to take all the power in 1960 as they did now in 2012 and has left Ahmed Ismail Samatar crying all the way to Minneapolis. Let us be fair sister. During democracy of 1960’s, during dictatorship of 70’s & 80’s, during the transition and even during this new "legitimate government", Somaliland has always not been represented. Unless you’d like to count the token members like Fowzia. Even Ali Khalif Galeydh couldn’t get any support to show that at least Somaliland got something. I don't see how you can defend this long record of inequality, so don't act surprised and dumbfounded that people realized maybe it is time they did for themselves and not wait for someone else far away. It actually seems to be working out. You call it cuqdad, I call it someone doing some math. lol If i can earn more employed elsewhere, I'll take it. So far, the 22 years alone have been better off than 30 years with Somalia. Why mess with a situation like that? You’d understand unless you were blinding yourself. Maybe you should listen to Ahmed Ismail Samatar indicate he felt like a foreigner in Mogadishu. Ask him why he feels that way and if he has cuqdad.

Rahima lets use your analogy. For sake of argument, you’ve depicted Somaliland as the wife. I won’t protest as you have made Somaliland that more appealing by describing it as the fairer of the two sexes So to continue, let us assume the wife before she got married was very pretty, smart, & romantic young lady. She fell in love with a cousin who she thought was the closest thing to her and that he would enable her to reach her full potential. Let us assume that in this relationship immediately after their marriage he told her she was to drop out of school, and basically just cook and clean and produce babies while he went on to further his studies, travelled the world and reached for the stars. Let us assume after 10 years of such an arraignment, where at least he paid some of the bills, he stopped paying, started using intoxicants and became physically abusive. One day she fights back and she breaks his back and her children get slaughtered in the blood bath. Now imagine this woman survives. However, her husband is in a wheelchair for many years. During this time, she finds herself, goes to school, started to apply herself and is working towards her dream career while she takes odd jobs here and there. Would you say go back to your husband shortly after he is no longer in need of a wheelchair? When he has no job himself? Lol I think not, the smart thing to do is, forgive each other and part ways. No one is going to go back into such a power dynamic. Somaliland has tasted the sweetness of self determination and it will not give it up.

STOIC, I think you’re right. Recognition or no recognition, Somalia & Somaliland’s union is over. I like how at the Buroa Conference in 1991, the delegates after debating concluded the union between Somalia and Somaliland bore three major benefits: 1. The road between Lascanod & outskirts of Borama. 2. The cement factory in Berbera– At one point the cement factory was not to be built there. It was built somewhere in the south. The raw materials used to be shipped from near Berbera all the way to the south until it didn’t make sense economically and the factory was eventually relocated to Berbera. LOL 3. The Dock at Berbera Unfortunately the union when looked at in totally for Somaliland was a total write off. It was mostly negative from inception with the lack of equal opportunity and the injustice that followed culminating in the destruction of life & property. There are very little positives to mention and even they had to be fought for tooth & nail. So honestly there is nothing worth uniting, unless of course there was some kind of interest invovled. If Somalia does not have any money and it is just as poor itself and is an aid recipient, what would it entice Somaliland with? The plain and simple answer is nothing. Going it alone has actually developed every single city of Somaliland. Somaliland is in better condition than they were in before. No Somaliland city had university before, now they all do.

Che, please explain why it would complicate things for Somalia? Somaliland being a recognized nation does no harm to Somalia, unless I'm missing something? I believe Somalia’s recognition has little to do with Somaliland. Somaliland has gotten around the diplomatic ramification that would have transpired, by putting its conflict with Somalia before the international community. The notion that Somalia has been recognized, Somaliland will be frozen out in the international arena is fictitious to say the least. Put some meat on those bones and do tell how it complicates things, because before this week and the week before that, Somalia had always been a recognized country. I’ll give you this much, you could argue this might have some bearing on Somalia’s inner workings and different local admins, but Somaliland is an exception to that. I would have thought you’d know better. I mean starting from this week, Somalia could dictate to Ximan & Xeeb or Jubaland or Puntland but surely not Somaliland. Let us not confuse the two. Also, don’t confuse Mr. Odweyne’s displeasure with Somaliland’s Foreign Policy to mean he thinks the jig is up. He just thinks by engaging with Somalia we may have allowed for crazy ideas like this article in the thread to be written and mused about. I don’t blame him, but sometimes you have to wade in treacherous waters to cross to the other side.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. It is comical to say the least to witness the same old hostility year in and year out with no end in sight. I’ve been hearing these lines for the past 22 years: “Somaliland is carro [insert qabiil here]” “Somaliland cannot survive economically” “Somaliland is a foreign creation – Ethiopia, UK, etc.” “Somaliland does not exist, it is Gobolka Waqooyi Galbeed” “Somaliland will crumble as soon as Somalia gets a legitimate government” “Somaliland will come back to the fold when the international community lavishes Somalia with developmental aid” “Somaliland has been rejected by the international community, and therefore cannot be sustainable” All these taunts have hit a crescendo this week. Somalia finally has a recognized government and will be afforded all the aid that comes with it. So that must mean Somaliland is dead in the water. One solitary photo with Obama and Somaliland has effectively been hobbled permanently if not trashed in the annals of history as an aberration. The popular belief is since Mogadishu will be pulling the purse strings, it will dangle some carrots in front of Somaliland and the people will rush en masse like lemmings. Unfortunately for my friends from Somalia this phantom hope that Somaliland will cease to exist will not come to pass. I must apologize for being the bearer of such bad news. For all intent and purposes, nothing has really changed for Somaliland. Somaliland has been receiving aid under the name Somalia since 1991 and will continue to do so. In fact, it will get it directly. Yes, you heard me, directly. Point 5 of the Somaliland-Somaliland communiqué in Chevening House gaurentees this: “Agreed to share experience on working more effectively with the international community on the use of development and humanitarian assistance for the people of both sides and called for the international community to increase that assistance; “. So in a nut shell, if when more aid comes for Somalia, Somaliland will get its share directly, what incentive does Somalia have to entice Somaliland with? The answer is a big fat nothing. In fact even the ones who had some hope of Pan-Somalism be it out of sheer convenience or clannish calculus; the likes Prof. Samatar & Prof. Galeydh came up empty handed going 0 for 2. Now the reality in the Horn of Africa is that Somaliland has shown it is economically, politically and culturally viable existing for the past 22 years. It is also evident that it controls nearly every major city within its borders from Zeyla to Lascanod, Ceerigaabo to Borama, Xuddun to Gebilay and therefore in possession of its territory. So the question is then if Somalia does not have any muscle to subdue Somaliland –since it is being propped up foreign and neighbouring countries’ forces – and has no economic incentive – since Somaliland will be getting its aid directly– what is left for Somalia to do? I think the most pragmatic solution is that of Rahima; live & let live. There is no putting this genie back in its bottle. The die is cast. Time to move on I say and lets go easy on the negativity. Now, for those from Somaliland, as much as I would philosophically agree with Mr. Mohamed Hashi, or Mr. Oodweyne, or Mr. Warancadde about not entertaining any talks with Somalia, I am inclined to agree with President Silanyo on this matter. The simple truth is people make decisions with their stomach not on principle. Mr Mohamed Hashi can wait until year 3000 for the recognition of Somaliland, because he is a man of principle, but the likes of Mr. Buurmadow cannot. So what should a responsible government do? It must deliver development for its people so that they may not be enticed by fools gold that might have otherwise become enticing. We’ve always received aid in the name of Somalia, it is no secret. To take a pre-emptive strike to negotiate in getting your share of aid without relinquishing your sovereignty is a master stroke. In fact I believe President Silanyo has effectively inoculated Somaliland from the defections that would have come had they not taken this step as people complained about the lack of development vis-à-vis with Somalia. I know offense is the more attractive way to play, but playing defense goes a long to set one up for victory. Our issue is not with winning battles, but winning the war. The journey we’re on is not one day but we’re in it for the long haul. The last interview Mr. Ibrahim Maygag Samatar gave was to continue to build our nation and strengthen our democracy and make our country a better place, with or without recognition. Let us not lose sight of the bigger picture. The temporary fission caused by the local elections will subside and the disaffected will coalesce under the two national opposition parties. Patience always wins out, as the Somali saying goes “Hadii Degdegsiimo Door Noqdaan, Kaadsiiyana Kiish Lacag ah Bay Noqdaan”