Yasmine, That's absolutely true. However, you must understand its not just Somalis that are belitteling women but the entire globe as a whole. There would be a time, you would be thought being a man, because of your ability to reason and spread your message so effectively. Sadly, we too suffer from this in our society, Allah willing we shall over come this.

First, the discussion then was not about crimes; but rather who enjoyed the most wealth material rewards during the Barre dictatorship. While our discussion was about the NSS and specific war crimes. See the difference? Actually the debate was about getting rich off of murders, I don't know about you but murders are crimes. He either oversaw, permitted, ordered, and/or committed all those war crimes which happened under his watch. And against your own relatives no less!! I'm afriad you're the one spinning things here. " As head of the NSS in Berbera, Dahir Rayaale bears a heavy and direct responsibility for their fate.[/i] " as the report states, is different from what you wrote. A:-You make him sound like he was a top individual. He was not a Minister like AbdiQasim Salat, and he was not the Governor of a whole region. You can't make him an INNER CIRCLE of Siyad Barre's regime. Its a far fetched idea that some guy who was stationed once in Lascanod a remote area in the Former Somali Republic, and then to Berbera as some one of great importance. B:- When the War happened, its the Army which was in control. Which he was not a member. C:- He has witnessess, not ones but many who say he saved them, and can testify to that. He saved them, by going to the Late General Talan (who was killed in Mogadishu late 2000/early 2001)and asking him to save these people. As you can see he had no power and needed a military person to carry out any kind of action. D:- He has a great moral responsibility for being apart of a regime that was despotic and so cruel to its own citizens, but by having freed these people, people can see he has more than attoned for having been in the regime to begin with. Furthermore, he was the governor of Awdal in the first 2 years during the SNM administration and could not have been chosen if he was a war criminal. E:- All the report says as evidence, unlike other events in the book that detail the atrocities that took place, is that Dahir Riyale was present when a 14 year old's father was taken away. Now to me, that's circumstantial evidence. Compared to the other evidence, like General Talan's account, we know he was actually doing good not bad. HornAfrique- Some people behave like they're actually fighting with the person. lol BN- actually says to me, you are talking through your beep again. lol I mean lets be civil here. In any case, there is life outside of cyberworld. Mobb Deep, First bring evidence Riyale is a criminal, then you can call him that. At least BN- phrases his allegations in a questions..ie Isn't RIyale a war Criminal.... giving people the chance to say no or yes... To say Morgan and Riyale have the same documentation is turning a blind eye... And I didn't attack bari at all, he's the one who asked are we SCHIZNOFRENIC...lol you don't hear me malling over that..I just asked him to be consistent..and get his facts straight...

Mobb, I think Ayoub is talking about the Former Somali Republic as a whole, hence the mention of the two in th same sentence. Futhermore, the estimate could be a far higher and be at 1.5 million. As to the exact figure in the north, nobody knows. Most figures that go around that range between 100,000 to 50,000 is usually about the first couple of months when the war started in Hargeisa. The same place I got the 1.5 million has put the losses in Hargeisa alone at 350,000. And as Mr. Afrah says, even higher. But the truth is that the number of casualties is a figure that can never be completely determined. One of these institutions came up with its own estimate: 350,000 civilians killed in Hargeisa alone as a result of carpet bombing from the air by hired Rhodesian mercenary pilots after the Somali pilots mutinied against their commanding officers. An estimated 500.000 fled to neighbouring Ethiopia with only the clothes on their backs. The real number is certainly much higher than this figure, because in general Somali families, in Hargeisa or Mogadishu, would bury their dead without going to hospitals to get death certificates. In many cases bodies were destroyed by the bombs that killed them both in Mogadishu, Hargeisa and other cities and towns in the country. It was common sight to see bloated bodies strewn on the streets and in public gardens. In Somalia no one had time to bury the dead as everyone was diving for a cover to save his or her own life. Children, the elderly and the infirm were abandoned in the streets to fend for themselves and were eventually killed by stray bullets and mortars. The firing between government forces and the insurgents was furious, indiscriminate and confusing all round with government forces using heavy artillery guns and the deadly Soviet-made Katyushas, popularly known as BM, on crowded residential areas of the cities and towns. In Mogadishu and Hargeisa it was especially strong. Thousands of civilians fled from one battle zone to another only to be shot by government snipers on rooftops. Shells were bursting in neighbourhoods and whole families were wiped out. Nothing could have lived in them. At the Digfer General Hospital and the Keysenay Hospital in the north of the city hundreds of groaning men, women and children lay in the compound, under trees and the bare floor of the hospitals. One estimated gave a 1993 tally as 1.5 million civilian casualties, probably a large portion associated with the clan wars following the overthrow of the military dictator when the warlords and their militia in Mogadishu turned their guns on each other for the control of the capital. Again, we have not been told how they arrived at this estimate. Mr Afrah's analysis on the numbers

MMM- looks like you owe AYoub an Apology. Horn- Calling Somaliland a tribal bantustan is far from the truth. You know it, I know it, we all know it. If that was the case, the Somaliland ARmy wouldn't be stationed in Yigoore if Somaliland equaled one tribe. The Somaliland flag wouldn't be in Zeylac, and Borame, and Buuhodle, not to mention Ceerigaabo.

Mobb, I thought you could detect the humour about waiting for her subclan. Oh well. No harm done. For your information MObb, nobody is subjugating people of Yagoori, and yet the SOmaliland army is there. Broaden your vision beyond tribal politics, and actually see things as they are. You cannot conclude Somaliland is based on tribe, because more than one clan have vested interests in it. You can't deny that fact. On this one, I was wrong, I had no reason to question your integrity. People can be tribalistic and still do good. I apologize.

BN- HornAfrique wrote to Jaamac, "Tell me was your father living rich off of the murders and torture of other innocent folks who were not 'Puntlanders'?" You replied to Horn and said "You are sounding like the biggest hypocrit on here. I didnt want to get involved in this garbage discussion. Only one tribe(subclan) grew fat and rich off the blood and suffering of Somalis. We all know who that was. And for them to stand now and point fingers is utterly outrageous--to say the least. This shows that from your angle only a certain group of people did crimes. That Jaamac's father shouldn't be pointed fingers at. Now why would you point fingers at Riyale???? Even if you do go on to say "Nothing good came from it and no self-respecting man would serve in it." you never ever say that some one who is one of them is a CRIMINAL. You only passed a moral judgement. See the difference. You can't say in one breath some one who is a member of the NSS is a war criminal, and in the other say, some one who is a member of the NSS shouldn't be pointed fingers at, although they are morally bankrupt to even be in that institution. Why because, it was only a certain subclan that got rich off the murder of others, thus implying no one else could have. See the inconsistency. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. MMM- when I say read, I mean it. I will repeat what I said before so maybe you will hear what I mean. Whenever you talk about something you say, I heard. Case in point your last statements on this board. You can't base everything on heresay.

Bari-Nomad, are you ok. Why don't you take Jaamac Botaan's father to court then. lol Maybe he killed people. He admitted his father was an NSS, and you were here defending him. DO you even read what you write???? Come on bro, get a grip. Nobody, would ever lie for a criminal. If money could presuade people, it would have worked for Barre in his dieying days. His appointments of Xawaadle Madar, and Cumar Carte would have done something. I don't know if you know, but war crimes are very serious in Somaliland. When the SNM came to power, they only prosecuted top officials, and those who were known war criminals. The army that was fightng against the SNM was left to go. If Dahir Riyale Kahin was a criminal, he wouldn't survive a day. However, if you want to make all that worked for Siyad Barre war criminals, then so be it. I have no problem with that. Start arresting Somali Maxamed oo dhan.

Che-Soyaal, Let me apologize. It seems like you have missinterpreted my words. All I know is, you'd love to have a United SOmalia. You believe that if it is at all possible the Former SOmali republic and other SOmali regions should come together. Now, because of that, you don't buy Somaliland's independence, but you also do condone it. I guess I was mistaken to lump you with HornAfrique, who has other ideas of bringing the Somalis together, namely they shouldn't have a voice at all. But I was just stating the fact, that although you may reject Somaliland in principle, its idea of dividing Somalia, you can at the end of the day, accept what ever the people choose. And thus, we can debate about whether to unite today, or tommorow, or 50 years from now. Whether or not, it is viable for SOmalis to be united in the long run, or if it is at all possible right now, willing or not. Don't get me wrong fellas.

Yes I'm waiting for her subclan, so I can direct it straight to her house. If some one is going to use clan at least use it for the purpose it was intended for. You contributed. I'd love to take your word for it. Nobody can really know. Now as far as you and MMM-, I say you think from a clan prespective because of your writings. I just call it like it is. In your last post on that thread, you wrote and I qoute "It doesn't make sense. As everyone can see Somaliland's claim to SS&H is all about tribal power and trying to dominate old tribal foes. This old tribal rivalry goes back to centuries. That is the truth. Waxba yaan been la isu sheegin." This proves to me, the only reason you are against Somaliland is because of tribe, not because of ideology. But you're dead wrong. Just because I said the same thing to MMM- who made a whole thread about Somaliland being a one clan entity, doesn't make it any less relavent. So afcourse when I called your bluff, and told you as it is, that you don't want to be part of Somaliland because of principles, but because it is about tribes, you come here to post it, to look like you're not about that. Its ok, every one can have their opinion, you can be apposed to SOmaliland all you want, but before the eyes of every one here, reading this board, they can see your rejection is based on tribe. I wonder what that says about those from your tribe who want Somaliland based on principles. Surely, they are not for it, for tribal reasons. Think about it. To think in tribe mode is for the medievel times and the family fueds of the past. Wake up buddy.

Just because some one was a member of the NSS or any other insitution in the former Somali Democratic Republic is not the issue. If just because you served under it, you are automatically a war criminal then by God, we can call entire clans, ie what historians like to call the M-O-D ruling alliance as war lords and war criminals. However, we all know that is absurd and short sighted. Somalia being such a weak economy, most people went to work for the state. Every one cannot be a criminal. Besides, unlike other former members of the brutal regime, he is actually attributed to saving lives. YES YOU HEARD RIGHT. SAVING LIVES. The only evidense suggesting he ever committed any wrong doing is circumstantial, in that a 14 year old said, President Dahir Riyale was present when his father was taken away. People love to run around and spread propaganda. They don't even know how to read things carefully. All Raqiya Omar's article said was that, this boys account should be investigated. And if the investigation proves that he had any role in killing his father, the how could we elect him as a leader. It was a moral call, and as soon as she said that, a whole ocean of people came to his defense, recalling how he actually saved them. Now, if Dahir Riyale is a WAR CRIMINAL and has blood on his hands, imagine the likes of Morgan. He'd have to get a new name like SUPER DUPER BUTCHER FROM MARS OF HARGEISA. Lord knows what AbdiQasim Salat hassan, Ghani, and the rest of the other known actually criminals would be named. They'd have to invent another word for them.

Mobb Deep, trying to come off as not a tribalist by posting this story is hard to sell. Maybe you should put your money where your mouth is and actually contribute.

I can only sum it up in two words, in which Dr. Ismaciil Ibrahim Axmed said during the BBC debate on the Recognition of Somaliland that was aired recently. Those two words are Political Amnesia. If you don't correct the wrongs of the past, you will never get anywhere. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Gediid, eventhough like you said the entire world wept for these people, nevertheless they should have been mentioned. MMA has the duty, like every other Somali to show the sad reality of the civil war and how Somalis have debased themselves from humanity. However, like you, I don't understand why he needs to compare. Doesn't he know you don't compare. You don't compare the Rawandan genocide to the Cambodian genocide. You can't, there is no methodology. In academia, comparing genocide is seen as having no merit. All I can say is, every life has its worth. No life deserves to suffer. Don't compare, because these two tragedies, and all the other tragedies in the former Somali Republic, happened at different times, in different forms, and different motivations. It is irresponsible to present these pictures in such a manner. FYI MMA-, the atrocities that happened in Baydhabo and elsewhere, do not, cannot, willnot burry, what happened in Somaliland. Furthermore, you intention of saying, shut up, will not work. You will not intimidate us.

MMM, I already told you in the other thread, you base your analysis on what some one has told you. You need to a lot more reading, a little less "Qaldaan" jokes, a lot more soul searching and a little less denial. Don't make me get you the post in which you said Somaliland equal clan X. As far as I'm concerned, I don't have a thing against your tribe. Just because you think along tribal lines, doesn't mean every one else does. Its sad, but that's the truth. I only stated the fact that Timacade, the modern day Somali anti-tribalist denounced the tragedy the Somalis faced after conolizatoin ended. Instead of real progress and emancipation, we got individuals that behaved like their colonial masters that left. I am speaking about an era, in which your father was a paramount figure. Don't change try to discredit it with clan.

Buroa was a tribal war. Surely if Somaliland of today after 15 years is a nonexistent government and state, like some of you say, then you can't surely say that it was a government in 1996 and had the capacity to enforce power. Every one knows that was a tribal war, whether you like to believe it or not. However today, LA is in a whole different position. Foreign elements have invaded it, and it will be pacified without leveling the city. Its just a matter of time, not if and when. Surely I hope you don't think LA is being spared the violence because it is inpregnable. No, its being spared because you don't put your citizens in harms way. Listen to the Garaad's in LA, they'll tell you Somaliland has never subjugated them. However the militia from Puntland has. There is the difference. The reason you and I dissagree is not one based on ideology, say with Horn Afrique, Soyaal, and Che however misguided would like to see Somaliland as an integral part of the Union, because they believe in Pan-Somalia as a principle. With them, a debate can be had on principles and ideas. You can't debate with some one who sees things through tribal lines. There is no tribal hostility in Somalia. Look around you, most conflicts are based on grassing/water, and other economic interests. Not a problem with anothe tribe persay. Wake UP.

wind talker, you can't be against the seccession, because somaliland is not doing that. its withdrawing from the union. hope that clarifies for you, why you are right when you are not concerned.

Ayoub are you insane. I don't think we should start that. I don't agree with you and Qudhac in another thread wanting to expose others. If we start that, this board will be flooded. lol Besides,I'm just not comfortable with sharing tragic stories. Let them poke fun at us. The way I see it, they are doing our work for us. The more crititism, the more we will try to make it better. You don't get honest truth these days, most people will just tell you, you're doing fine. These people are like an un-payed focus group. lol They get to tell us what's wrong with Somaliland free of charge. lol Aint that grande. If they choose to shift their energy on bettering Somaliland, so be it. Although, they could have used it to help themselves, but if they want to help us, by all means. Let them expose what ever they can.

Mobb Deep, you got it all wrong. Sool is not only populated by a certain clan. Whether you like it or not that's the fact. If people start mentioning clans, we will never reach anywhere. We'll just end up like the RRA and SNF fighting over Bardheere. If you want to reduce Somaliland to tribe, its not Somaliland that is a tribe oriented entity, its you who can only read things through a tribal spectrum. Its an open Secret that the top 3 position in Government, namely the Executive, the Legislature, and the Judciary are not in the hands of the tribe, you, MMA, BN, Guraad, Sophist, Sammurria, and who ever else associate Somaliland with. I'm sorry but that's just the facts. This reality is what people are starting to understand. Xasan maxamuud Dhilood the Former Minister for Puntland realized this. Why else would he go from a position of power and secured income, to be just another ordinary citizen in Somaliland. Mobb Deep, its all in your head this tribal buharara you allege to, and its only you who wants to keep it alive, when every one else wants a state that can give them hope for the future.

Mobb Deep, that actuall has taken place. The Militia of Cabdilahi Yusuf have forcebilly captured Las Anod, and want to create a blood bath. As you can see, the government hasn't rushed to war. Every one knows that Puntland cannot defend itself because of its financial woes. The Somaliland Army could have over ran them in days, if not hours. Yet, the interests of the population is at hand. You don't kill the very same people you want in your country. Simple logic.

Rahima, you're absolutely right. There is no need for bad mouthing Somalia Proper. If anything, we should be praying for it. This whole demonstration is a hypocracy, but I welcome it. There is no need to compare apples and oranges. However, I do believe that some if they were in the position of power today and had the means to carry it out, they would just by reading their comments. lol That is why I laugh when Mr. Odweyne calls them defeated lot. I'm sure those are the only people Mr. Odweyne is targeting, not an ordinary citizen of Somalia Proper.

The Mad Mafia and Co. will love to see all those for Somali Unity to come and demonstrate against President Dahir Riyale Kahin. It beats hiring a hit man to assasinate him. This time, at least you will be demonstrating against some one who is healthy, not some one on his death bed like those who demonstrated in South Africa when the late President Egal went there for treatment. They event went so far as to predict his death three days before his time. This will be another chance for the Somali Unity proponents to show their true colours once again. Do please come in full effect, don't forget your platform shoes and afro wigs.

Jaamac loooooooool i dare you to repost what you said before lol if you got the guts that is lol or do you want to take back that jab against ayoub ... besides like you said you feel like you're on your way out, might as well go blazing like scarface. lol i swear man, encore. post it again if you dare live up to your name. i was starting to get used to you, don't chicken out now

you deleted it....damn...lol why man...lol ahaha everybody should have read that...walaahi that was classic

looooooooooooooool@Jaamac....walaahi I got tears in my eyes from laughter..... do you honestly believe that..ahahaha.... GEDIID NOW YOU KNOW WHY I WANTED HIM TO STAY... looooooooooooooool... we're all occupied everyday with places that require us to provide evidence, proof for our words and actions, its nice to have some one who doesn't care about all that....

M-M-A, we agree Timacade was a great man with great convictions. ie "Dugsi maleh qabyaaladu waxay dumiso mooyee". Which every one qoutes like they eat laxoox/canjeelo for breakfast Now why on earth would that man resign if it was such a shining era? The truth of the matter is Timacade said in a poem that the White man he sent packing and the Somali man who came are the same. I wasn't alive, neither were you, and from what I get, since you tell us all the time, your father told you how it was. Now I got nothing against your father, but between his word and the word of Timacade, you know who I'm going to believe. Simply because of Timacade's integrity is unblemished. No personal attack on you my friend