^^and it just does not make any sense to me either. Sulayman, you can’t post a weak rational for the reason behind this ruling and still expect for sisters to comply with it. Weak intelligence is not a plausible reason for why the lawgiver made this exception, I hold, and you can throw as many selective quotes as you want but it won’t persuade me a bit. Do you seriously think, good Sulayman, our mother Aisha was less intelligent, for instance, than that crooked Yasid ibnu Mu’awiya of Umayyat government who ruled this ummah for many years? Lets not go there, adeer. It’s nonstarter I hate to speculate as to what is the reason behind this hadith is but if you force us that direction I would say it is that so the sisters don’t neglect their primary responsibilities by getting this extra burden. Lets not insult other gender’s intelligence to justify the wisdom of this religious verdict. It just doesn’t make any sense saaxiib.

^^^ Amelia, man becoming useless implies that he fails to do his primary responsibility, and not being ****** , I gather. You yourself suggested today’s political and social conditions may warrant the need for Muslim women to step in the leadership position and be better leaders than men. If a woman attempts to right the wrongs of men, it does not mean she is ****** or any thing like that, it just means she is just carrying extra load of burden, on top what she already been doing. Perhaps Scarlet good sheikh has come to the same conclusion as you did.

^^Horta ninyahow warla'aantaydu waa wax jira, laakiin yaab ma leh oo dee arlu qurbaan u degganahay. Haddiise jawaabtu noqotay waxaan jirin baa laysku hayyaa dee wayba iskaba dhammaan marka la ogaadu inaan wuxuba jirin. waxaa comic kuula ekaaday aniga naf bayba isoo gelisay oo waxaan u qabay in conflict dhab ahi jirto. Ninbaa waxaa lagu yiri; horta naagtaad qabtaa foolxumaa! intuu yara aamusay buu wuxuu ku jawaabay sidii hooyadeed iyo aabaheed looga soo beryay biinaan ogeyn. Marka ina Sugaal Cabdulle ha ihaato ii daa adeer intii fitno ka weyn lay sheegi lahaa .

General ZU, reerku waa shax-shax iyo wax ilaahay loogu mahadiyo, saaxiib. Reerihii SOL baan isla la'ahay...that's the only challenge for now . Intii kale waa ka adkaaday.

This thread is getting quite interesting! Drama queens superficial objections, pseudo religious interpretation injections (gender is a measure for political performance in office or managerial capacity, yaa Allaah), and above all opportunistic sarcasms from usual suspects of our SOL, all thrown in to the mix of what supposed to be a highly intellectual discussion, and it makes the ruins of this thread a quite visible one. Another housekeeping is in order ma is tiri. But before we loose the gist of this thread, let me reiterate it: 1- There is a clear and unambiguous hadith that limits the degree to which a muslimah can rise in the domain of leadership 2- The ruling of this hadith had, and still enjoys, the consensus of the learned community of this ummah. 3- Those who, like me, respect and comply with the fundamentals of both science of haddiith and science of Islamic jurisprudence find very difficult to surmount the overwhelming (qualitatively) evidence in favor of this ruling. What this hadith signifies is that, although woman is encouraged to be active and productive member of her community, the lawgiver has decreed and imposed some exceptions on her as to what function she can assume. That does not mean we can use gender as a measurement for political performance in office or intelligence, for that matter. That, I found, is unsustainable argument, and a one that has debased motives to which I could not subscribe. So there is no rational for saying woman is barred from holding office because she is less intelligent being! I for one don’t want to go on that road. The importance of this hadith (and others like it) is that it tests our resolve in what we believe by limiting certain inherent aspirations and desires that we have. I can’t emphasis enough how much I appreciate the political ambitions (or ability to have that right) of some sisters and their attempt to challenge this hadith. That is understandable and quite frankly natural. What I don’t understand is the habit of objecting religious rulings solely on logical bases or worse yet to try to bend our fundamental rules of accepting and interpreting hadith just to fix mere inconvenience. In fact it was out of character of some pleasant nomads here to even try to dig in to the integrity of a sahabi to exact some favorable outcome for this issue! That is not good. Lets take from there…. and move on. P.S: I liked Scarlet’s sheikh and how he explained what the reason could be.

^^Wallee caawa Amelia waa dhaarsantahay. I thoughtt you siad G'Nite, to which i said amen . G'Nite all... and i mean it.

lool@ina legend adeer. Waryee 3dex xarigleh (i demoted you for ur long absence) Zu xaggaad ka baxday dee?

Amelia, you seem to be objecting on the ruling of this particular haddiith on the basis of abubkra’s character/motives. But you can’t quite say so! We are not talking about any haddiith. We are talking about this particular haddiith. This one is a sahiih. You see sister, goals don’t justify the means in my books. Granted that you like to challenge the legal consequence of this haddiith but you can’t present your argument credibly if you endorse Ms. Mernisi’s methods of blackmailing the companion of Muhhamad to advance what she thinks a just cause. Let me end this circular reasoning of yours by saying this hadith is sahiih. One needs to study the methods of collecting and accepting hadith to absorb what that rank entails. Traditional thought of this hadith conclusively ruled that it is inadmissible for a muslimah to hold the highest position of leadership for the Muslim Ummah. I agree with that, and so do number of people here who expressed themselves. For those who disagree from an Islmamic perspective, please make sure you think Islamicly when you formulate your proofs….and don’t even attempt impeaching a companion’s integrity! War yaa kaloo raba inuu na xukumo ?

^^Yours is called taqliid, which is OK. Sor'f OK.

^What I am telling you is that the character and the integrity of a companion is not a fair game. Those hadiths, and many more, were rejected not on the basis of an unreliable character of a sahaabi, but for other relevant reasons walaal. Every chain in each hadith is weighed against very stringent rules before it is accepted or rejected. I am not aware a single hadith that’s rejected because it was narrated by a sahabi whose integrity was questionable. It does not need pondering walaal. Or does it? Tell me one without falling in to Ms. Mernisi’s trap! Ms. Mernisi is not using the same rules but she is supverting them to fix a mere inconvenience of hers. Infact she is not respecting processes, standards, and jurispudentail derivations to exact a ruling. Hers a doomed insurgency. There are many ways to discuss and even object the legal verdict of a hadith. Disqualifying the sahabi who reported it is not one of them, my good sister.

Pi, that Allah has beautiful attributes that meaningfully represent His qualities is no point of moot among the learned community of this Ummah. It is also equally agreed that Allah is unlike any thing we can perceive. In fact He is distinctively unique in His being. The notion that Allah is physically everywhere has a weak scriptural support, and hence theologically unstable. We wouldn’t raise our hands upwards if that was the case! But it is also the case that some prominent scholars held a position similar to the one promoted by the article you posted. But it all comes down to what is the safe way of interpreting Allah’s attributes, saaxiib? Should we use logic and rational methods to exalt Allah or should we follow how His messenger treated these verses? Should we inject fuzzy analogical rendition in to the Qur’an or should we uphold the original understanding of it and rely on their sound understanding? In my judgment, we can only know about Allah what He or his messenger told us about him, and that is suffice for us to know.

^^And this discussion needs not move forward without agreeing its rules. A companion is not a fair game. I say. What say you good Amelia?

Nurow, though it seems that I’ve deserted you in your hour of need, still you’ve comfortably seized the truth of this issue saaxiib. With all my anticipation of it, I’ve somehow missed this tread. No matter. I like the way it is. Before I take up some germane points raised here, let me do some basic housekeeping and say a word or two to our confused bro JB, not that I want to read him the riot act, but to remind him that he is due for one . Adeer JB listen to me; to take a leap from the tallest building in the town, and still hope for safe landing is overly brainless, and not a calculated risk-taking, do you not agree? If it is the fame that you desire to show us your head every time an intellectually-stimulating and thought-provoking religious article comes up, as this thread is indeed one, then it is the infamy you get as there is no good repute to win from trolling! If you feel of being marginalized by the ‘mullahs’ of this site, however, and want to fight for the subverted logic’s glory, and be there, as it were, for the martyrdoms dual, then you need to work on your thesis saaxiib. This discussion is about the legal soundness of abubakar’s hadiith and its jurisprudential significance, and as such it has a very distinct boundary (read: only religious views have relevance in this discussion) around it, and to see you roam in this part of the fence is quite comical. We are not even talking about metaphysics stuff, for Allah’s sake, for you to be even tempted to plug your logic in! Waa kukaa adeer. Scarlet sister, you have raised very relevant points. Our priorities should be to tackle the problems that are persistent in our communities and we should not waste our time discussing hypothetical issues. I hear you laud and clear. But this is a clarification thread that our gifted brother intended it as a public record on this issue. It is Nur’s qawlu a-jadiid, if you will, and it overrides his qawl al qaddiim. The whole leadership issue in Islam is not about breaking the eggs to make the omelette thing as some would like to have us believe. Islam does not take away rights to establish others. It is a matter of understanding the wisdom of the lawgiver. Muslim’s attitude should be to submit first and ask latter. If it is the law it must remain as such. Amelia, my wise sister, you are not the Young Turk, so to speak, (or are you ?), in this discussion and if you do a little proofread on your post you might easily see the error in your argument. It seems to me that you are banking on the impeachability of abubakra’s integrity and the reliability of his character to scoff the legal consequence of this haddiith. That’s a weak armor, good sister, and for two reasons. First, abubakra is a sahaabi to begin with, and for that only his integrity and character should be upheld to a high regard for all of us. After all he is a companion of our beloved prophet. Second, this particular narration of his is in Bukhari, a collection whose soundness and validity is agreed, and that means it had passed unscathed through the rigorous criteria of accepting hadith as the science of jarhi wa ta’diil requires. The second part of your argument (actually it is the question you posed) has some meet on it, and hence, it could be fruitful to indulge you in that aspect of this discussion. What does this haddiith signify? What is the legal consequence of its ruling? How high a woman can rise in the domain of leadership as decreed by the shariicah? Could she be a minister, a judge, or an army general? Instead of challenging the integrity of the companion or the authenticity of the haddiith (which is implicit in that argument), questions along those lines, I think, are better suited for discussion. I will come back and contribute more, IA.

^^Adeer maxaa ka yaabiyey ? Su'aal baan waa weydiiyey rag aan bidayey xog'ogaalnimo as to what is the root cause of these skirmishes is!I was still waiting a reliable account of why all of a sudden things are stirred to the level we are all witnessing when the Lion Teaser of SOL simplified it for me. It’s all about how to share the planed castle in the air, he answered. A reasonable response to which I agreed. What say you good MM?

^^carry on then, I say.

^^^Sounds like you refused to collect the wisdom that our good Blessed sprinkled. Replace this Wahabism word that you’re so fond of with Islam…and you might realize how bad utter generalization really gets. It’s all in your mind saaxiib. Study good sheikh’s history first before you begin throwing Google articles at us.

Libaaxow, Sugaal Cabdullaan uga haray !

Originally posted by The Red Sea: assalamu calaykum, Aniga magacayga waxaa layidhaahdaa Red Sea, waxaan ku dhashay magaalada Hargeysa xille aan idiin sheegi doonin. Magaalada Hargeysi waa magaalo wayn oo qurux badan. Markasta oo aan yidhaahdo magaceeda, waxaan xasuustaa quruxdii Hargeysa. Wadoonyinkeeda waaweyn, ubaxayadeeda ku yaala wadoonyinka, bridgkii waynaa ee dhex marayey magaalada dhexdeeda, iyo Masjid Al Jamicii weynaa ee caasimada Hargeysa. Now try that sis. Assalamu Calaykum, ^^ , that cooks your goose yaa Badcasow. I was gonna sign up for your class but now i feel like a teacher.

bilan, I think it is a confused sect rather than a business association. The underlying philosophy of this sect is: concentrate and focus on how to become a ‘diamond’. All aspect of life is deemed trivial in their books. That includes family, work, and education. They are convinced to have found ‘the’ shortcut for success. Having had conversation with some of them, I wished the means for reaching the goal they set out to reach is well thought out. Theirs is a recursive loop. For some families the destruction this sect brings is unbearable: children neglected, jobs abandoned, and schools dropped. To what end? Oh what a waste of talent.! My advice; say nay to them if they ever approach you with this idea.

Maakhir & Paragon; would you be kind enough to educate us about this issue: what do the locals object to? Is it about the share of the pie to which they object or the authority of the said deal that they reject? Are they represented in the current Puntland admin? Do they have reps in Puntland house of appointed (selected) legislators? On a side note, Puntland, it seems to me, is at its infancy. The election of Cadde has in many ways taken it back in time. Its persistent economic stagnation has been enough headaches for all concern. These reported skirmishes do indeed indicate that its politics is on the wrong track as well. Nimaan macno badan lahayn baa meeshii qabsaday. May be, just may be, only the old man knows how to gather this herd!

^^Very industrious indeed. Raggeedii iga dheh !

That was, good Oodweyne, very realistic, and particularly somber, I may add, assessment based on the stubborn facts on the ground, and not on your customary cheery song of how-big-my-garden-should-be stuff. It's also a big improvement for you finally emerged from that ever-hanging emotional fog with a clear mental picture of how complicated the case of secession really could be. The two arguments you presented are classic example of conflict of interest between those who want to brakeaway and those who see no reason for this hasty and opportunistic withdrawal from the union. That conflict of interest is also a telling depiction of the clannish reality of the whole deal. It all boils down, good Oodweyne, to this question: what’s in it for me? I know it won’t sit well with you, but you must’ve realized by now that telling the truth is a cardinal task for me from which I rarely shrink. If the political power of your folks is directly proportional to the outcome of the independence bid: grows if it succeeds or shrinks otherwise. The opposite would be true with the folks whose choice you deemed to be a thorn in your side. What that means is if the people of LA (D people) and LQ (W people) decide to support your self-determination suggestion there would be no tangible political advantage for them as a result of that choice. Why would they do it then? Apparently they won’t for the simple reason---beside its legal complication and sheer moral bankruptcy---that it doesn’t reflect their interest at all. It could be the case that the likes of you are willing to leave no stone unturned to reach a compensating arrangement to persuade them, but the deep ancestral connections and history would stand in the way of such effort and render it unsuccessful. Now faced with the daunting task of convincing the world the merits of its case combined with its inability to find a plausible solution for the looming internal segmentation of it, Somaliland’s independence bid still remains an ambitious plan on paper . What say you good Oodweyne?

lol@Sheh. You can’t concede that I have a point, eh. You see I explained my objections, and unlike you, I pointed to a better approach than this better-a-mouse-in-the-pot-than-no-meat-at-all that you’re applauding to. And do you think that you are a head of the pack by pointing to my usage of the ‘thing’ word, as if capitalizing it makes out of it something to be ashamed? Do you find modest to be my Achilles’ heel? Oh what a disappointment yaa Sheh! If you ever bother to respond try to apprehend the points I raised, or as our fellow Pi says roll over in agreement . You know I have no wounds to hide, nor do I particularly feel guilty of other people’s wounds as I never had a hand in it. The culture is ours. It does not belong to Xiin only. Very elementary, I know. But I felt to have you reminded before you give us another dose of shame this, shame that mantra. Repeat it, if you so wish, but shame and embarrassment is not an issue for me. It’s more about ineffectiveness and Anshaxumo than its shame or embarrassment, good sister. You still have not answered my question though: why do you think that wounded thing needs to be displayed? Can we not address this issue without drawing a female’s private part? Do we not have moorings to hold on to yaa Sheh? Think about a little bit more, and bonder before you respond. You have shown us admirable intellectual capacity, and I know you can indeed do better than this. [Edit]: Xoogsade, I liked the principle. I thought it was witty of you to explain it in that light. Amelia means no harm, you know!

lol@I can never be his friend, although I have never known enough to harm him. Nurow, I had a very pious (seems to be the choice word for a good reason) who was a true example of what muslin ought to be. He had a very diverse background; a UN humanitarian officer who presided highly known UN operations, and brilliant physicist, among many others. When we first met it was a Maghrib prayer in a narrow aisle at the college. We become good friends, indeed very close friends. I benefited from him a lot. After years of trusted friendship, he decided to leave from the west and headed his native land. He thought he could be more effective and more of help to his people than overstaying in the west (as most people often do). One evening (few days from his departure) he called me and requested to meet with him at a remote coffee shop. He asked me if I could guess why he called me tonight. My answer was way off the mark. He was interested qolodaan ahay. Of course I was a Qurac. He asked if I want to know qoloduu yahay. My answer was no. But he told me anyway. He was a Qansax. But as expected from both our developed Islamic knowledge (mature enough to at least make us see how insignificant qabiil really is) and the solid friendship we had, it had a zero effect on us. Indeed, even in long distance, our relationship solidified and grew much stronger. I wish that was the case for all Somalis. By no means do I think this is a unique narrative (After all, we had a prior association that could override any prejudices, even if Islamic knowledge was not a factor) but I suspect it is not that common one. Back to your story with the college kid,judging from your cyber character I can’t think that you gave up on him and surrendered him to the other forces. Did you follow up on him? Did you see him again? I lament that kid (kid implies youth) carried that poisonous package all the way to the western college halls. Sorry for being off topic. P.S: i noticed your other tread that deals with this venom and I will contribute IA.

SB, are you not the wicked one here who pretends to labor on what’s obvious and settled? For the good heavens sake, spare us from your heavy head and don’t hang it in the public squere! Your argument is neither here nor there, and if I stop every time a dog barks, as it were, my road will never end. So I shall ignore your ceaseless rants as you are a complete waste. Don’t blame me as I tried to teach but you do have a swollen skull, and you know not how to ride. Let that be the final seal of the deal. And will keep you in my prayers. Maantoo dhan nac-nac miyaad wadaysaa.