^^You are not making sense adeer. Come again!

The advantages you highlighted were quite predictable few months ago yaa Sakhar. The reason tfg will lose big time is its alliance with Ethiopia. Simple! Ethiopia must leave. What might suggest them to do? I say go to the Arab capitals, and give in. ask for immediate talks with the resistance with no conditions attached. If they do that they would find them quite generous…

^^You two were indeed missed around these boards.You are quite comical in many ways! First off to Allamagan, Allaha u naxariisto qaraabada kaa dhimatay! Other than extracting my compassion for your perished relatives, you have not added any value to this discussion. You came across as a poor lawyer to defend the atrocities of Ina Siyaad! The irony is that you accuse me of my blood relationship with Ina Yusuf while you and good Horn support him today for the mere fact he employed your uncle, Hiiraale. That’s the highlight of your write up.

Originally posted by Elysian: Xiin, I don't have any other arguments than what has been said many many times, and I don't think repeating them again will do any good. However, let me put it this way, you are right, the arguments for a greater Somalia are valid and that's why it was formed in the 60s. But how long did it last? How long did the people of Somalia feel united, where they ever patriotic or was their loyalty clan based... was there ever a "somaalinimo" transgressing qabiilnimo? The arguments for a united Somalia today are still the same, but history has taught us otherwise, and reer Somaliland are acting according to their experience... Is it really that difficult to understand (not saying you have to agree)? Elysian, Somaliland’s experience, as painful as it was, was NOT unique. This is what happened. A dictator called Barre wanted to rule the nation an iron fist and when the people started to resist his rule, he used every tool in his disposal to put them down. In Mudug it manifested in the form of destroying water wells and burning villages. In Waqooyi, however, since the conflict seeped in the urban centers, Barre’s response came in the form of destroying cities by different means hence causing large exodus of civilians. He bombed indiscriminately and killed and maimed many innocents. Cruel and irrational, he was. His deeds were savage and criminal in nature. But to take that grievance, and turn it into a tool to divide and dismember the nation is equally irrational. Today the world is a small village, and we don’t live in isolation. You know, I reckon, more gruesome experiences and ethnic strife that caused more deaths and destructions that existed around the world, and got finally solved short of disbanding nations involved and without compromising people’s unity. I know I am rambling here but blaming the acts of a dictator on the entire nation is really hard to understand, and quite pregnant... lol@Me, ka haray hadaba..carry on!

Originally posted by Mj. bada Cas: Xiin, looooool....saaxib no one is dancing around anything. The anwer is PEOPLE' CHOICE. What do you have to say about that? ^^ Which people? poeple of Burco,Hargeysa, Berbera or the ones of Laasqorey, Laascanood, Buuhoodle? Boorama and Ceerigaabo people are pragmatic adeer and they would alwasy survey the horizan before they decide so dont take thier tacit support as though they are squerly behind this push! It's a draw adeer! Bal ka tali.. ps--Ilaa shalay horta maxaan idiin saaranahay ? i know good Me wants me to carry on..

Originally posted by Laba_Xiniinyood: Another set of events are said to be unfolding in the Sanaag region again. Somaliland troops are said to be in Biyaguduud , near Xingalool, and marching on their way to dhahar. The Puntland troops are said to be in Baraagaha Qol , near Dhahar. Alas! there is no one wiseman in their midst to foresee the evident consequences of such a clash! Bisinka! If this is true then it would be a sad development. Laakiin Somaliland Dhahar maxaa loogu sheegay horta?

^^ You can find the article here.. I cant access it now! I dont recall the points he listed but it was a good read.

edit: That was way short off the mark yaa Roobka! The Kikuyes of Elderot could present a better case than yours to secede from Kenya. Originally posted by Elysian: lol... just getting started you say. You really think you'll convince Centurion, xiin and the others? Why not just be honest and say their arguments are legitimate, but not convincing enough for a united Somalia ? ^^You got it wrong yaa Elysian. In the eyes of the world somalia is a failed state but still territorially intact. So the case for united Somalia has been presented back in 1960’s, and needs not be repeated. What I was trying to extract from these secessionist cyber squads is what is it that makes certain clans in former British Somaliland an independent nation. They have failed to do so, and danced around the query I sent. Why don’t you try it then?

d/p!

Originally posted by roobleh: quote: This notion of Somaliland declaring independence is something I thought hard on and attempted to rationalize , but it really does not make any sense. xiin, you do not need to waste your time to think about why Somalilanders want to secede. This was an issue that cencerned only the people who reside in Somaliland. Once all representatives of different clans gathered in Burco, it was the right decision and an easy one to make. Since then, Somaliland people are enjoying the fruits of their hard-worn peace, competing each other for getting ahead fairly, and joining political parties. In contrast, Somali children are dying from strayed bullets, women are being raped, and innocent people being killed for belonging to the wrong clan if not for their cell phones. Don't you guys see such obvious contrasts between the two. Somaliland would not Join Somalia cuz it would be a politically suicidal. But I hope you guys will soon see the light! ^^lol. You do indeed have a funny style of presenting your argument! What makes you think that I don’t have a vested interest in Somaliland’s fate? And are you not hasty to assign the burden of caring, if not attempting to solve, about the harsh consequences of calamities exacted on the innocent masses in the south to us yaa Roobka? Let me be generous and give you an honest advice: instead of fishing for snippets of my vast argument, and throwing selective quotes from my write up here and there, try, as hard as it may be, to put together a cohesive and presentable argument as to why, short of colonial legacy, Somaliland, and not any other region in Somalia, should secede! As always, I give you the last word!

Originally posted by ThePoint: ^Whoa - you think you can just roll over the male population eh? I think I'll get outta the way cause I'm not so sure you can't ^^Wiyil lama hunjaaliyo adoon hootada wadane'e . Aahey Shehey ku dur-duri...

^^You may want to formulate your question again yaa Socodka! Perhaps you meant what are the necessary ingredients of bringing about genuine reconciliation so Somalis could have a modest but viable framework to govern themselves? Ethiopia has exacerbated our conflict, and as long its there I don’t see any alternate course other than to fight them. The tfg has many choices to make, and in fact it’s the only entity that has the luxury to influence events on the ground. So far they have chosen to take a path of destruction. There are versions of achieving peace after Ethiopia’s withdrawal. The good Samatar published one such version not long ago.

^^Adeer it’s possible. It starts with having a clean political attitude. And to the contrary, I do really think embarking on a project to separate is more difficult and problematic then working on the return of the Somali republic! This notion of Somaliland declaring independence is something I thought hard on and attempted to rationalize , but it really does not make any sense. How could some one like your education and religious understanding miss the value of unity? How could some one like you ignore the regional challenges that are sat before you as a Somali and Muslim? I could understand Oodweyne and other secularly oriented folks who think narrowly in Somalia’s tribal settings, but you, yaa Redka, baffle me the most! Is it not disturbing to see young landers willing to shed blood just to cling to a wickedly sketched colonial borders? Nin walaalki geed ugu jiraa geesi noqonwaaye’e~~~!

^^You can’t swallow the truth of some Northerns being against the idea of seceding, eh?

^^^Whose majority are you talking about yaa Redka? If you talking about the clans of SNM rebels who fought against the regime of Barre, I say yes. And that’s why I said some want to secede. Adeer you could repeat these mantras about people decided this and people decided that, but at the end of the day Somaliland’s grievances are political in nature and could be addressed without full dismemberment of Somalia. To separate from a country in the midst of civil war is a dream gone bad, I say. Warancade, I gather you concede fact#1. There are significant regions in former British Somaliland whose consent you have not secured. In fact there are considerable portion of them whose desires to stay with the union is quite problematic for your agenda. Now fact#2 and fact#3 are tied adeer. if you disagree those three facts have effectively halted your secessionist wheels, would you be a good chap and enlighten us all what is it that’s stopping you to secede?

Xoogsade, I was talking about the eventuality of it all. But you are right that these Ethiopian troops are funded and provided with logistics they need to continue this project. But I also think a foriegn power cant stay longer in a hostile enviroment like Moga is...

They are fated for defeat...

Originally posted by roobleh: As Farah-Brown said, who's going to stop them to do so? well, no one can. Xiin, dont you understand that in democracy 'power belongs to people.' It was the Somalilanders who decided to unite with the rest of Somalia in the 60s. That was not a forced union, remember. Therefore, don't you think they have the moral right to secede from the union for whatever reason. I know those of you who do not shy away from the silly phrase that 'Somaliland people cannot decide to secede' are such those who cannot even agree on what government they want to have in Somalia. It is such kind of attitude that have destroyed the country and silenced many Somalis who could have made Somalia a better place to live in. My advice to you is to forget about Somaliland, and think about the mothers and children of your country, Somalia, who constantly live in fear and hunger. ^^^So it came down to ‘who is going to stop us’, miyaa yaa Roobka (ta)? You need to consider few facts on the ground then. Fact#1: only some , and not all, of the former British Somaliland’s community drive this independence push. Fact#2: The legal strength of the act of the Union: one part alone can’t abolish it without the full consent of the other. Fact#3: The regional concerns of opening a Pandora’s box; the same colonial legacy on which your project hinges left deep scars on this continent, and regional and international bodies are for ever cautious about revisiting Africa’s shaky political boundaries. You can dismiss all of these quite hastily as good Oodweyne often does but they have indeed proved to be the natural levees against secessionist’s ceaseless efforts to separate from the rest of this deeply wounded nation. edit: Faarax, I am sure those who want to secede today do not represent the entire Somaliland's people as those you referred to did then---hence the difference. Ka butuli….

Ethiopia has to leave. Period.

^^Faarax, at the first oppurtunity let me allow you to escape with your colonial argument. Lets assume that SLanders really feel different from us becuase they had different colonial masters. Just for a minute. OK. Who's a Somalilander? A particular clan? Who's advocating Somalia's dismemberment adeer? What say you about those who were among Slanders then when it was under the British colony but refused to be part of it now? Do you think separatist’s argument would hold water if a significant portion of the original territory they marked for their would-be state are not on board with their agenda? The holes of their argument are countless runtii…as far as I am concern the project of separation comes down to a political grievance. There are many ways to address it but their current presentation of it is quite silly, I say. What do you say Faaraxow? edit: ThePoint, I saw that you had in custody most of the secessionist’s lame arguments in the other thread. I trust you with our good Faarax; please detain him for me till I come back tomorrow IA.

Originally posted by Faarax-Brown: In all fairness,that really doesnt fit well in this argument, Because,Bay didnt get independence & went into a union with Somalia. The thing is,If the people of JSL,who mind you decided to join their brothers in the 60s,decide to secede,then who really has the mandate to tell them NO? ^^Aaah it's the fact that the British colonized the place for some years in last century. Say it that way adeer as it’s the truth behind this push. With all fairness, Faarax, I found this type of argument quite ridiculous to say the least. When Somalis are most needy of a unity and collaboration between them as they are preyed on from all corners, some would want us to believe colonial sketches, and an illegal one at mind you, have somehow a distinct sacredness that would qualify some of us to declare the unity of the Somali nation null and void. Reer Baydhabo can’t do that, good Faarax says, because they were not particularly segmented and encircled with the said sketch! Puntlanders can’t do it either for the same reason good Faarax cited. Only Somalilanders have the luxury to be a country of its own and separate from the rest of us! That’s a lame bullet adeer. Waa dhemish yaa Faarax! Let the real landers present a better argument than that...

The young man was clearly pregnant with violence.

^^Shiddo!

Faarax, tell me what makes the people of Somaliland different, say than people of Bay? Is it the legacy of British colony or something else? If it's the latter then i want good Rooble to tell us what it is. If it's the first then, well, i want Rooble to say so as well. Then we can have a debate if being colonized by a particular breed of white Europeans gives one more rights than others. Understanding the fundamentals of nationhood is in order here.

Rooble, You are still dodging to address the difficulty I posed to you. What is the compelling rationale for Somaliland’s need to separate? The differences you cited do not really warrant for that region to secede. Further more, all of the distinctions you made are political strides in nature, and in fact it’s a matter of time before Puntlanders boast on achieving it. Thusly, and as you can see, that’s hardly a ‘huge difference’ as you put it.