^^Horn, kindly remind me that debate, or please dig some references to it. My bashfulness would not allow me to say you are lying! Please dont be like Ayoub who, and i can say this with great confidence, blatantly lied to win a cyber argument! Hadba meel bay ka tifqaysaa...

Salaam Alaykum ya jamaacah. Time is not my side today. But this is a good thread really, and my camping in it has paid good dividends. I owe two responses to saaxibul qarni (Horn) and the racil ghanam (the Goat man)! It seems to me goat mans’ argument represents that of brother Kashafa and Xoogga, and perhaps other nomads who chose to be silent. And Horn’s argument reflects that of brother Che and Paragon. If the proponents of reconciliation-now approach, with no conditions attached, do justice to those two arguments then I believe we would get closer to succeeding to propel the wheels of peace forward albeit in a very limited scope… And do justice we shall! Notes on the margin : For those still dwelling in the lowest squalid locales of this thread, please strive to contribute in a meaningful way. Check this: no one has thus far occupied the summit of this thread for neither Baashi nor I have convinced you to embrace what Baashi billed the only practical way out of Somalia’s current mess. On the other hand, despite the puritan talk, and the repeated references to the ongoing Ethiopian aggression and thulmi, no one from the other side of this discussion has yet made strong case as to why he or she thinks continuing the current Xamar fight is the only way to regain our lost dignity and nationhood. edit: Baashi, let Ayoubi win that type of argument. The double natives is just meaningless, and does hardly deserve to be honored with response.

Horn---a reasonable man indeed when he wants to be one! you attacked the message itself, and not the messenger and that itself is a great progress saaxiib! Paragon’s point, which you so eloquently succeeded to put some meat on, is the easiest to address and I shall do so in the earliest opportunity. Your bet on the tfg framework expiring come 2009 is yours to lose. I however would like to assume given the unexpected consequence of removing Courts from their control of Xamar that it would be imperative for the powers be in their calculation to extend the lease for this entity absence of any other appealing alternatives to meet their security concerns. At the minimum this entity gives them the legal cover to do whatever they want in the failed state that’s Somalia. But that’s peripheral to the larger discussion we are having here. As I said I will (IA) address this Somalia not being conducive for reconciliation argument (In the sense that I believe if one is for dialogue one shouldn’t pin his/her on the hope of whether this entity expires or not). G’ night Jamaacah! edit: Xoogga, i got it.

Originally posted by Xoogsade: People who call for negotiations with the TFG are either dishonest to the core knowing the fact that peace is impossible with no honest partner, or they are in deep despair to the point of losing their mental well being, in which case, their views are meaningless . Cajaa'ib sheekhow. Xoogga war new ah nig dheh adeer. I am in neither of those false categories you classed! And I called reconciliation. I think it's the way to go. Look Xoogga, on the grounds of civility and as an article of creed please forgo this pathetic line of impeaching the character of your cyber opponents. It does not work. Classing people just does not work. If truth were to be boldly told, desperate are those in the Diaspora who think more wars waged by people back home who have no capacity is the way to get stability in Somalia! Now based on the argument you’ve thus far mustered and put together, yours is a game of sitting out in the feeble hope that this entity would expire in one year. My question has been very simple for those with similar strategies. Would you change your mind about having reconciliation if, in your case, the three men you named are removed from the political scene? Even if the political conditions that brought them to power remains intact---as it’s more likely to remain unscathed by mere removal of warlord actors? If you are angry to the extent that you cant write in a rational way, please stay away from these boards. Haddii kale waa la isku danbaabaa. Ethiopia is there because you are down. You are down because you are divided. There reason you are divided is not because few warlords sat you each other and went on to benefit from the anarchy that ensued. Rather it’s because since our center fell Somalis have never been truly reconciled politically or otherwise. (edit) Case in point: while you are gallantly putting a great and impressive resistance in the Bakara market (the center of your own capital) against Ethiopian troops, your enemy’s military logistics is coming through your harbors and airports. Those very people, who allow Ethiopian weaponry and logistics to pass through their regional jurisdiction, intercept and prevent whatever meager military supplies resistance in Xamar might have gotten. And that’s a fact brother. edit: Xattaa anta yaa Me?

^^That is much clearer now. It borders impossibility for all warlords to die at once and vanish, yaa Paragon. But considering age, and health Yey is the closest to meet his rabbi? What about if Yey dies now? Would you embrace the reconciliation then yaa Paragon? .

A good and positive gesture from Riyaale!

^^lol@the crime. Dont be lazy Horn, address the q; what happens if this entity lasts beyond 09?

^^But again it retains its meaning by the sheer fact that your very query on its appeal rests on the grudges you hold agianst some nomads here! That's a thought. Originally posted by HornAfrique: Reconciliation or any form of dialogue shall become legitimate after the ending of this year when the mandate of the TFG has expired. ^^Now this bit is much better, yaa Horn. But what about haddey sii durugsadaan, and keep the token international legitamacy that sustains them as an entity?

Originally posted by Che -Guevara: Xiin...For sake of clarity, what does the TFG represents to you as entity and as it regards to the current conlfict. It is my contention that TFG can't exist without the Ethiopian muscle. And it is no secret the TFG only answers the wishes of Mr Zenawi and hardly to the need of the larger public. First get this: On the political level , there are three components in the current Somali divide in my mind. 1- TFG and its supporters--- i.e. Puntland and some parts of the south. 2- Courts and its supporters 3- Secessionists and those who support it (yes I believe in a holistic approach instead of let-the-south-get-its-acts-together-first nonsense) To get Somalia back on its feet again, some sort of understanding and political arrangements must be made between those political entities. On the clan level , Somalis have grievances against each other--some grievances go back to the inception of the republic itself. Others carry fresh wounds sustained during civil war years. The deeds of Barre regime are still raw in some parts of the country and continue to shape the political outlook of certain communities. Reconciliation and justice are needed to remedy those rifts. When you confronted with those stubborn facts, I don’t know why you wanna go off on a tangent and describe how you feel about the tfg. Adeer how you or I for that matter feel about tfg is irrelevant. If you insist though I despise it primarily because it gave (yes it’s policies did) Ethiopia a political and military advantage she never dreamt to have. But as I said that’s irrelevant. The fact that it’s part of the conflict is pertinent to the issue we are discussing. I believe great majority of the North Eastern people, significant numbers in the North, and big parts in the SOUTH make up the tfg constituencies. If we were only discussing the role of warlords your stance would have made sense. Now I gather that you believe that Ethiopia is fighting Somalis and those who are in her column are negligible variables. You don’t buy the argument that it’s Somalis that are sat against each other (forget who is right or wrong for a moment). That’s pretty, and respectable position to take. I however beg to differ for the reasons I delineated above. Ethiopia is only doing what any great country would do to its existential enemy in its weakest moment. Our weakness though is ours to own. And taking the position you took you buried your head in the sand one inch deeper. You see you are living in a compromised life here in the US (I am too). Yet you oppose, with a great passion, any impression of compromise between warring sides in back home. Why is that? What is this zero sum game mentality brother? At a minimum don’t you agree those who are dying in Xamar from both sides are Somalis, and hardly do the qotti boys get smacked in a manner that produces the rate of casualties that would necessitate for them to rethink and withdraw from our capital. No matter.

^^Xiin's call for reconciliation is akin to giving 'Yeey and his warlord goverment a way out so they could save some face' ! So says brother Che. ^^That's a start though. Adeer Yey and his warlord goverment are part of the conflict. They have followers, international and regional support! If one is serious in resolving somali conflict through reconciliation, one must be practical in the way he or she formulates his/her argument. Old habits die hard adeer, and it seems you are at it again ---addressing what it's not said rather what it's said. You tempted me there, but i restrain... Your position though is very clear this time around; you are for continuining the fight until Ethiopia withdraws. Reconciliation is secondry thing in your book. TFG has no influence in the country and as soos as it gest kickted out, things will fall in place in a orderly fashion. I hear you loud and clear yaa Che! Bishaaro, has a point!

^^If Kibaki is tyrannical as you said, and if the Americans are supporting him, as it’s apparent, then the opposition must wise up and compromise. Only if they know what it means to be without central state. Inta la dhaqanyahay baa mucaaradnimaddu fiicantahaye’e allow yaa yiraahda is qabta. ps--waaba illoobay e, whose biology are you liking yaa Brownie?

^^This is educational good Dahia. There are people who hold positions that they cant defend.This gives them apportunity to eather learn how to defend what they believe or change it for a one that makes sense. Originally posted by Che -Guevara: I would like to see Somalia free of Ethio and with vailable state that works for its people. I will be more than willing to sit with anyone that shares that goal, and talk our diffirences while keeping our eyes on the goal. ^^That's a pregnant statement Che! And you know it. Once and for all, please look beyond who lost faith, who belongs to what group, and talk straight to the issue at hand. I mean who does not like to see Ethiopians out . Do you have some tuhun that some of us in this discussion are rooting for Ethios? Do you understand divided people like somalis are hardly share common goal? I mean seriously brother tuuji maxkaxdaada... Paragon, I am still confused brother. If you are saying that untill conditions are right NO to reconciliation then logical question would be who would make the conditions right? Do you honestly think Ethiopian withdrawal from Xamar is the ultimate goal in our struggle? Me, my man, kasoo qayb gal maansada adeer .

LOL@Jamal's argagixiso def. Meesha waxbaa ka dhacay!

^^Finnally showed up, they've been waiting you ! Originally posted by Isseh: Following Nuur Cade’s current policy formulations, there is hope that he might create the right environment for reconciliations. If Nuur Cade takes the positive step of reducing, (and possibly) facilitates the total withdrawal of Ethiopian troops from Somalia, then and only then, could we say reconciliation’s time is due. For now, we wait on him to deliver the goods and until then, reconciliation will be on hold. Paragon , notwithstanding with your prelude, you are indeed agreeing, perhaps unwittingly, with Baashi’s point. There are two approaches to the Somali conflict. One is the puritan approach which Kashafa and Xoogga (with less fervor) advocate in these boards. In that approach, there is no room for sitting down with the tfg. It’s evil. Warlords. Dabodhilifs. It’s Ethiopian tool. The rain of deaths and destruction over the capital do not make them waver. For thier principle of gumaysi diid does not allow them to dilute their strong stance. In thier books, dignity and pride trumps over humanitarian considerations. Somalis will eventually reconcile and make peace, brother Kashafa assures, but we must tend the business of removing Ethiopian occupation from our soil first. He immediately qualifies. And that always, and unambiguously, means continuing the fight against Ethiopian presence in Xamar---regardless of what the cost entails. That is that---and you sure don’t seem to subscribe to it based on your endorsement to Nur Cadde’s rational approach to lessen the impact of the cruel Xabasha occupation had on the Mogadishu people through whatever means available to him. The other approach is humble and practical. Somalia is down because Somalis are divided. For Somalia to stand up, Somalis must reconcile and bridge their differences. Ethiopia’s influence is far reaching and can only be addressed if Somalis deny her the advantage it so conveniently exploits: our division. No one suggested this would be easy undertaking. No one predicted it would make all parties happy. But it is the only credible alternative out there that makes sense. Reading your piece again you seem to made a handshake, albeit weak one, with this painful reality. I am not sure though if you fully understood the political ramification such a stance entails. In some brothers’ eyes, your stance would come across as caving to the enemy, and your views would quite conveniently border to those of the supporters of the tfg no matter how hard you try to make the distinction. How could you nod in agreement with Nur Cadde’s initiatives, they would shout at you. But it takes a conviction, a solemn realization of our current status as people and as a nation, a deep understanding of the historical context of our civil strife and the advantages our enemy has, and more importantly it takes an element of honest and strong backbone to state and sincerely report your feelings of the military strength and the political strategy of those who oppose the current alliances America put together in Somalia. What’s happening in Xamar is no vedio game. It’s a serious catastrophe! Millions of innocent people are caught in a war they have no way fighting it back. They have done the only thing they could and knew how to do: flee. Tens of thousands are in a dire humanitarian situation. The enemy has the advantage. They control all the entry points. And the only defense Xamar is left with is what we have all been witnessing! In my mind this is no contest (it should not be anyway) for bravery. It’s rather, or it should be, a struggle to get Somalia back. We must realize that Ethiopia is not only in Xamar. It’s almost everywhere in Somalia if we are honest enough to admit it. With that in mind I don’t quite see any reason to sacrifice particular segment of our people (people of Xamar) when there is no apparent strategy to challenge her in other parts of the country. That’s why reconciliation-first approach though a low key in proposition is the only practical plan, and it may be, just may be, a winning strategy in execution for a reconciled Somalia would certainly be better positioned to challenge Ethiopian in a more effective way! ^^Scratch all I wrote above ! I skimmed your piece at first and got the impression that you are for reconciliation. But you are not. Unless you wanna speak from the both sides of your mouth, you can’t reasonably praise this man’s positive steps and withhold your commitment for reconciliation yaa Paragon! For you perfectly know deep down that the powers-that-be sponsored this Ethiopian occupation and this Nur fellow cant to do it alone. You know what the demands will be. You know that they will demand a period of quietness and you know that al shabaab activities will continue regardless what this Nur guy does, and that in turn will necessitate, from AMerica's prespective, the continuation of Ethiopian occupation in Xamar, and consequently the suffering will continue. You shirked to take a credible position adeer. Come again!

^^Waa hagaag, nin caraysan warki. Allow ku shaafi! Aamiin! Waryee Che waan carraabay e Horn sii cel-celi, intaan guriga ka gaarayyo IA. edit: nevermind Che, Horn wuxuu rimmanaa waa dhalay, dhicis bayna noqdeen!

^^Horn, As always you are struggling to make a point! Allaha fasaaxa aad ku cabirto carrada xiin ka haysa ku siiyo. In that case, intaan is fahanno baan is cafin lahayn. Laakiin hadda waxba ma qabankaro...

Now you are angry without reason, Che ! Calm down brother! I have observed last few days this sinister insinuation of tuhun-based clannish tilt against the admin/moderators of this site few a times. And you managed to throw it in this discussion hence the appropriate tackle to deal with it.

Originally posted by Centurion: quote: If one were to settle scores with Baashi fishing for lapses is understandable and dare I say part of the game. But I still believe the man made a very unassailable point! For those who are able to put the pen on a paper so to say it would be wise and worth of their time to contribute in a meaningful manner and forgo the urge to nitpick and find faults----that’s a cowardly habit adeer ! My dear man, i have no reason to nitpick- nor have i decided to highlight his self-dissembling writing to settle some kind of cyber-score. His message of reconciliation is hardly revolutionary, and he contradicts himself by then using offensive language against another qabiil, whilst exhibitng the possessiveness associated with qabiilists. Dont look so suprised he is being criticised for this. You misunderstood me adeer. I did not mean you to be the one settling scores with Baashi. I just meant to say that if one's intention was just that it would have been undestandable for that person to divert from the original poitn.

Originally posted by Che -Guevara: Xiin..How about we allow him to make his case. And it is not so much what he says, it is what he doesn't say. It would be interesting how explains Ilkoyar comment. If one were to use the word "Dhaba-yaco" to describe the Puntland in Xamer, the admin would have been down on our throats. Adeer, Don’t be grief-stricken about what the Admin of this site do and does not do. After all this is his place and he has the right to run it in whatever fashion he wishes! I find this type of insinuation of clannish tilt pitifully weak, not to mention offensive to the integrity to the folks who moderate this site. This is a forum. I don’t know the man who owns, if you believe me. But I still find it attractive for variety of reasons. Just lets us leave at that. Kashafa , Baashi is not the only one I support or agree with. Nur and MMA are amongst those who I some times get in trouble supporting them. You suffer me explain to you that the reason I support (clarifying his larger point) Baashi has nothing to do with qabiil. That goes to MMA and Nur as well. ps-- Kashafa, i thought you needed time to coherently make a case against reconciliation, brother. stop, kusoo boodka and make a case saaxiib! As for the people who are dying under the trees, you dont really know whether i help them or not, do you yaa Kashafa?

^^Please come back and do try to prove the bogus you think it’s! We may all benefit. I would like to think Ethiopia is the enemy, and those you called dabo-dhilif are your people who, with reasonable efforts toward reconciliation, could be brought back to your fold. Warlords are few in numbers. Their followers however are numerous. Marking them all as enemies as you did in your sweep is at best uninformed. But as I said come back and lets have a go at this yaa Kashafa!

Che, that's my hunch (that the term is offensive)...correct me if i err though! As for which group you think i belong, that's niether here nor there! I would like people to discuss topics on thier own merits and stop gocoshada on what happened in previous topics. That's not healthy. edit: Cent, If one were to settle scores with Baashi fishing for lapses is understandable and dare I say part of the game. But I still believe the man made a very unassailable point! For those who are able to put the pen on a paper so to say it would be wise and worth of their time to contribute in a meaningful manner and forgo the urge to nitpick and find faults----that’s a cowardly habit adeer ! ps, Also, Che, i dont really feel that Baashi needs a defense. I just happen to agree with his point of reconciliation between somalis.

^^That's classic Che...always excelling in the arts of kala firayn ! Jamaacah, this is not as bad as good Kashafa dramatically presented ! Kashafa , maca kullu ixtiraam wa taqdiir, you lack aadaabu khilaaf ! Baashi's piece when read in the context of this thread was quite comprehensive. This is the bit you conveniently skipped. This is an injustice. In marfishes and fadhi-ku-dirrir premises when one subclan are routed by another the event makes a memorable sound bite and gives one side bragging rights. But still that doesn’t change the fact it is barbaric act that needs to be settled and reversed. ...... I figured if property issue is settled peacefully and justly -- the natives (unless you are rooting for particular natives) will win big time and thugs and those who support the business they're in will lose. The challenge is how to get them in the dirrin -- that’s the million dollar question I don’t have an answer for! Those dont sound words of the tribalist bigot you depicted right there in your post. Admittedly ***** is an offensive term, and the old man slipped there---- gangs would have sufficed. Still though Baashi's point stands unscathed. Reconciliation, the man insists, is the only way out of this mess! I find it funny that Kashafa of all people would enjoy attacking the character of a man he does not know instead of addressing the larger point Baashi has been driving on these boards! [ January 30, 2008, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar ]

^^ I though you were good at Gudaafad digging! But you dodged! And that's ok with me! Baashaa Kismaayo kaa dherginayya ee iska sug yaa Ayyoubi!

^^lool@hidden hand. Horn, you're funny!

Dont vote for Che; he is not stable enough. Inuu kugu soo kala fireeyaa la arkaa.