I am in agreement with MMA that any clan-based solution is unacceptable. It will only codify a false social institution that is by its very nature fluid. Lebanon has such a constitution both on religious and tribal basis, but is not tested. However, there are more issues under the surface. What type of government is best for Somalia? While I agree with the article with respect to a government populated with professionals chosen on the basis of their skills rather than their clans, I do not agree with having an overly strong central or federal government. The future of Somalia will be based on the success of private initative supported by public security and stability. We cannot tolerate a corrupt government. While corruption exists in all governments to some degree, we must change the conception of government in the minds of Somalis. If it is viewed as a means to server ones own interests, then we are doomed. I believe the only way to combat this is through structural mechanisms that reduce opportunities for large scale corruption. If these principles of minimalist government focused on providing stability and security, as well as fostering basic services then we can mitigate the effects of a clan-based constitution.

This post has gotten out of control. This phenomenon happens in so many groups, I know from first hand experience that Indians and Arabs have the same shit. In Eastern culture women get a raw deal, they are held to such high standards. When they want to get their groove on they want to do it as discretely as possible, thus the desire to run away from the men from their culture who potentially has some connection to their life. Also in Eastern cultures people like to talk about other people. Yeah gossip is in every culture, but people from the east think everything is there business. Going to a club does not mean anything other than you want to have a good time. Now of course some people define a good time differently then others. On this point I will generalize. While I know lots of upstanding Faraax's like Baashi, and many others. Most of the faraax's are lazy *** losers that ruin it for the rest of the faraax's. What every happen to the noble, hard working, proud, intelligent somali men now being replaced by the wanna-be thug, welfare taking, lazy-*** , qat chewing, unhealthy looking faraax's that are running rampant all over the place. I just had the opportunity to do a world tour of sorts, which took me to many Somali spots. In every damn community the faraax's were a disgrace (in about an 80% disgrace 20% non-disgrace ratio). Never in my life have I been ashamed to be a Somali, NEVER!!!! until I came back from this trip. So before we go on bashing Somali women, let the faraax's take a look at themselves. Unfortunately all of these vices are spreading to our women at an alarming rate. It is time to start kicking some butt! This state of affairs in making all our ancestors turn over in their graves. The Somali nation is suffering, we better worry about improving ourselves and our prospects before we go attacking some women in a club.

At this point I am absolutely against it. With the current streak of fundamentalism going through the community. I will not swap one tyrant for another. I know freedom is not an absolute concept but I do not want some wahabist telling what it is to be a good muslim. My relationship with Allah is between me and him, so you can see yourself out of it. With the current level of ignorance and lack of education, I do not believe Somalis are capable of having an Islamic government. Faith takes work my friends, and everyone must participate, must engage their faith. Laziness will not work in Islamic republic, it will only allow the shiekhs to become dictators and tyrants bent on subjecting all to their vision of Islam. The beauty of Islam is that Allah has provided us with all we need. The Quran and the Sunnah to make intelligent judgements about the course of our lives and our conduct with others, but we must do the work necessary to make those judgements. And society must allow each person to make there own judgements.

The USA should lock them all up in Guantanamo before they cause anymore trouble. These jokers aren't going to a darn thing for Somalia or Somali ppl. They need to step aside.

It is good for people to talk about this issue, but unfortunately there is still a great deal of ignorance. I hate it when muslims claim to have some sort of moral superiority with regard to others. Somalis in particular suffer this problem. The point others have made is correct that HIV/AIDS can spread through a number of methods, but the fact remains that the most likely method is through unprotected sex. This is especially true in the African/Black communities where heterosexual contact is the number one transmission mechanism. Just avoiding Minnesota is not going to anyone any good, because I guarantee you that is disease is in all Somali communities wherever they are in the world. You all know that social norms of Somali people have changed drastically over the past 20 years, so throw out all of your assumptions. Another point is that although women disportionately have the disease the main transmitter is always men. In Africa and Asia, HIV/AIDS spread across road and transportation links because men would have sex with prostitutes then give it to their wives when they got back home. This is true here in the US, but through different mechanisms. In Black community one verified method of transmission has been through bisexual men. Now Black women are the number carriers of the disease. again throw out all your assumptions.. For the women in the forum, you especially better protect yourselves. It has been shown that during unprotected sex, women have 3-4 times higher chance of being infected. Next time your boyfriend tells you I love you baby you are the only one, you better think twice. Condoms are not foolproof, they only reduce the risk of infection. but you still better use them. I really get angry at the lack of attention paid to this issue when the consequences are front and center. Anyone remember that article about some Imam in Somalia who banned condoms in his community. pure ********* . He better be absolute sure about the commitment of his people. AIDS is a threat to everyone, but Somalis have a chance to get this shit under control before it becomes like South Africa. I was just in Bombay. India has much the same attitude as Muslims and Somalis, that are somehow immune from this disease because they are of superior moral character to those in poor Africans. They just finished testing the prostitutes in one Bombay district. three years ago the infection rate was 2%, now it is well over 50%. and condom use is well below 50%. You do the math! A careless attitude is a death sentence, especially if you don't live in the USA or Europe.

It is good to hear about the Coca-Cola plant, but is hardly the first effort at investment. I recently spent sometime in Dubai, which has a large Somali business community that has been active for many years in all sorts of efforts. In fact, a former US official to Somalia in a speech in Washington DC several months ago highlighted that the economy in Somalia is acutally thriving in many areas. It is the first country in Africa to have mobile phone rates lower than a dollar a minute, and the telecom have recently convened a regulatory agency of sorts in Dubia with the help of the ITU and UN. The private sector is the only hope for Somalia and Africa. People have learn to rely on their own initiative and work rather than steal money from others, or expect others to take care of them.

This is an important topic, and I don't have the time right now to give its proper due. Debt relief cannot occur without proper governance. Or else, the same problem will occur in another 30 years.

Let me offer another possibility. As Somalis have moved to different areas with different cultures, the norms have changed. What was not considered a problem a few generations ago, is now considered wrong. Perhaps it is still acceptable back in Somalia. Another example of this is child rearing. corporal punishment is not tolerated in places like America, but was not much of an issue in Somalia. My point the men have not become better or worse, but as a whole have adapted to new environments and norms. I know plenty of Somali women who still bitterly complain about Somali men. my two cents...

They look just like the nomads I met in the Shabelle Basin. These are people from the Horn of Africa, they might not be Somalis (I believe they are), but definilety some other group. They were not slaves. Slavery was abolished by this time. Around this time thought there was a great deal of interest about people in Africa and the East, so I agree with the person who said it was for some exhibition. Funny, the next black person you meet might be of Somali descent.

I think we can all agree with the traits Jamaal has described, but I must say this nomadism vs. agriculturalism is very simplistic. How many of us here were nomads? Not many I would imagine, yet we posess some of those same traits, however tempered they maybe by city life. There have always been agricultural/settled Somalis. Those who live on the coasts practiced a mixture of farming and herding, coupled with their trading activities. I do not agree that the culture of "nomadism" is the problem. I know many of you have read the few books out there about Somalis. Many scholars described an active political system, which they felt to be quite democratic. Of course, there were wars or skirmishes, but as Steve Biko once said, "What do you call World War I and II?" Unfortunately, solid institutions take much longer to build than to tear down. On the question of development, of course a strong agricultural sector will be necessary, but it cannot be the only economic activity occuring. I feel Somalia can become a trade and commerce center for Africa, if the potential government realizes that the private sector is crucial to growth. As such, any government should have minimal involvement in the economy. Most poor countries rely on the government as the sole employer, and the government over regulates every aspect of the economy. The US State department just issued a report stating that the only thing keeping Somalia from complete and utter collapse is the incredible amount of private sector companies delivering basic services, and building new infrastructure. This is a wonderful base from which to build. What is stopping this progress is greed, selfishness, and ignorance, not nomadism. I speak of the warlords, and I mean every last one of them including the democratically elected leaders of Somaliland. These people have been corrupted by a diseased society (of course I am referring to the time of Siyaad Barre). The saddest aspect to me is that these thugs have been empowered by the international community to solve Somalia's problems. Peace is not there interest, they are getting rich because of the chaos. instead of attacking nomadism we should organize ourselves to fight these problems you so eloquently described by Jamaal. In my opinion, Somalis have lost what nomadism gave them. A sense of pride, dignity, and the sharp intellect on one forced to deal with the most harsh of lives. I meet too many Somalis more apt to tell you what they can't do then go after what they know they can do. I must admit that I am torn. I cannot pretend to know what many of the refugees are going through. I was born and raised in the West. But still I am saddened by the state of many of the Somali communities. Particularly in the US, they have fallen into the trap of Black Americans. So many are in jail, and few go to school. peace

I have come to the realization that Somali women are our only hope. Granted this is a generalization, but far more of the Somali sisters are doing well with their opportunities. Somali men for the most part have failed in their so called obligations. The sad fact is that so many of them have been corrupted. I welcome wholehardly the full participation of women in the peace and political process, as well as men of good character.

She looks like a below average Somali girl to me.

While understand your pessimisim. I feel this pessimism and apathy contributes to the further troubles in Somalia. It is painful when I see our best and brightest have checked out of Somalia. Chosen instead to live their own lives. Of course, life is difficult, but so is the pain of having no homeland. A great deal of complaints about outside influence in Somalia, the peace process, qat are posted everyday in this forum. However few of us lift a finger to do anything about it. This is a common issue. Admitedly I suffer from this as well. But deep in my heart I believe that if Somalis in the diaspora put pressure on all the parties involved with the issue peace we would see a different process. We don't need to united in identity just in our desire for peace and stability. The amount of lobbying and campaigning that occured immediately following the civil war was tremendous. It was also quite effective in pressuring western countries to open their doors to Somalis. The UN did not do this, your own people did this. Though terribly fractured by the war, Somali people operating under their own self interest were able to open the doors to many. Granted that was a different time and different situation. It is tragic that so called educated people still ask about clan affliations, but that is not necessarily bad, as long as they do not treat you differently based on those affliations. As much as we would enjoy it, clans are not disappearing anytime soon. Regardless it is ridiculous to assume that all of us will be enlightened. We must move forward with those who share a vision for a united, peaceful, and prosperous Somalia. Perhaps much like people write their congressman or congresswoman in the USA. We could collectively express our opinions to the Arab League, African Union, IGAD, etc. Inform the press of the actions of the people, so they can't ignore it. That might be a start.

Originally posted by HornAfrique: If my conclusion is wrong and I misjudged your answer, then I would wish you to come and reclaim the integrity and respect that I have lost for you my friend. I am commenting on your general behavior in this forum. I remember a previous debate between the two of us where you made a similar claim. You can remain at a loss, because it seems that is the state in which you feel most comfortable. Such tactics are despicable, counterproductive, and ultimately represent yourself in an unkind light. Yet, you choose to regularly employ these tactics in your discussion. My statement was meant to bring your actions to light.

Tribalism/Clanism is blamed for all of Africa's problems. How often do you hear, "They have been fighting for a millenia!" Let us be careful with these words. While it is certainly a large factor in the Somali situation, and most definitely the initial source of support for the warlords. I believe economics is the root cause today. Warlords have enormous financial incentives to keep their positions. Lawlessness has made many rich, thus they have no desire for peace. While Somalia does not have the natural resources of other African nations (i.e. Congo). These thugs have been resourceful in finding new sources of revenue to support their appetites and organizations. They have even resorted to selling off the environment of Somalia contributed further to an environmental disaster. All this for money, not a clan, tribe, family, religion or any other reason beyond their own insatiable hunger. my two cents

Why do we always seek to blame outsiders for our troubles? Is it not better to look within for the problem. The outsider is only able to disrupt your affairs because of their strength and your weakness. So many external factors are participating in Somali affairs that one cannot levy the blame on only one party. While we are blaming everyone for our trouble, lets add Kenya for making so many Somalis qat addicts. This blame game is pointless. BTW, Horn you always seem to use the respect you possess for so and so as debating tool. Personally I don't care if you lose respect for me because I don't subscribe to your opinions.

Brother Horn and all others, I realize you did not want engage in this type of discussion, but surely you must have understood that its nature would provoke a response from the group. Why do all of you on either side of the fence continue to put faith in leaders (or warlords) who do not have your interests at heart. These men and women are of a generation poisoned by greed, selfishness, and clanism. Someone once told me that no person, clan, or region is clean of the bloody conflicts of the past(I hope). Yet, most debates about Somali politics are based on proving some ficitious moral higher ground over others. Reconcilliation does not happen this way. NO ONE HAS THE MORAL HIGH GROUND IN THIS CONFLICT! If we continue to support these so called leaders, we will never be able to return to a safe, secure, united, and prosperous Somalia. These leaders are worthless human beings, so why waste so much effort arguing about them. If you insist on supporting these people, I suggest writing them a letter, or an email expressing your desires for peace in Somalia. Odds are they don't give a damn about anybody but themselves, not even their clan. That is why they have all (yes every last one of them, including those not present) used the current peace conference as a venue to get some free meals, a nice hotel, and a chance to feel even more important without tackling the issues that need to be addressed. PEACE IS NOT IN THEIR INTEREST. Why on earth would you want peace when you are making millions of anarchy. Reminds me more and more on Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Any catch the BBC program on his wife who commandeers the national airline to go on shopping sprees in South Africa. I believe that everyone here can support their family or region while still serving the cause of all Somalis. Peace, waaq

Normally, I would never be ashamed to be a Somali. This article has shamed me to the very core. We all know that this scourge is not limited to Somalia( or Somaliland), but right in our own backyards in London, Toronto, Minn, Seatlle, and on and on. I now know many women use this stuff. Once our women (the remaining pillar of the Somali nation) are gone, we have nothing left. Brothas and Sistas, Why do we as Somalis commend so strongly those who drink alcohol, while allowing equivalent offenders to escape similar treatment. Ahhhh! The double standards, don't get me started on those. I these freaks all over, they look like they just spend their childhood in a toxic waste dump.

Baashi, I have to disagree with you on the role of Ethiopia and Egypt. Self-interest and greed are what stand in the way of peace in Somalia. The peace process has been hijacked by the thugs that created a need for it in the first place. My prediciton is that if there is not strong intervention from some external party within the next six months, Southern Somalia will be mired in conflict for the next 15 years. Somaliland will begin to receive recognition, and Puntland will be forced to follow suit. If this peace process fails we will not see a united Somalia in our lifetime. That is the fact folks.

How about forgetting about a greater Somalia and concentrate on fixing the Somalia that did exist. As strong Somalia will be in a position to secure the rights of Somalis living in these areas. BTW, the ****** already has self rule that is apparently working.

Another note. We can make our own renaissance. If we take advantage of the opportunities we have in the west. Save our money and learn. Then open up schools, hospitals, businesses with our own blood and sweat build an Africa we want not some western wannabe. Also it is not necessary to move back, just engage the continent from outside. Sort of a transnational community.

I don't have time go off like I want to about this topic, but let us not forget the institutions that allowed for this so called European emergence. Namely, slavery and colonialisation. Without these institutions Europe would not have become what it is today. Not mention a heavy dose of intellectual capital from muslims of one variety or another. Muslim teachers taught at the first European universities, because there were not enough qualified Europeans for the job. peace

Actually if you are a muslim you have no right to judge, as that is haram. Worry about yourself, if they choose they will alter their own behavior.

They 100% Somali and Black, I don't know this hispanic or Cambodian shiznit is coming from. Don't Hate. These girls are trying to make it on the scene, probably just an act.

A new city should spring forth from the desert, and it should be the capital. A city without memory, without remorse, without hatred, without revenge. Accessible to all, and belonging to all. Call this what you will, but that is my feeling for a new start to Somalia.