Originally posted by nuune: ^^ He has already said to you "i don't expect you to understand all this." I am sure you are as lucid as he is.

Originally posted by muriidi: back in the days people would have answered with"without God you wouldn't be here.." but that lead to descartes..who was a radical/extremist plato critic ..and in a negative sarcastic way. he created a lot of trouble in france and its trade partners in asia,and until today japanese people fearfully ask when they see french people"are you gonna pull a descarte on me?" the french revolution got rid of that,but only in france.a new type of government was formed that exported that to cambodia for example... but since the judicial courts were seperated from "those who like to say that they are the government",it's not hell on earth. after the revolution of the ikhwan muslimin (sayid qutub etc.) many "islamists" export their ideas to unknowing westerners or nationalist in their homelands,they don't work in the real islamic community. seriously...burning sayid qutub books,but promoting silly cartoons and salman rushdie by creating all that commotion .openly supporting ben ladin thus making bush very happy.pushing away faithful people from other cultures,thus making their regimes very happy and making everyone easy to control...once again it's hell on earth and we're stuck between saudis,americans and european hyppocrites who aren't sure which side to bee on (maybe the indie movement is stronger) you lose your soul(identity) and you are made of passports,account numbers and internet passwords,that is all you are... anyway..afer we cut their heads off ( a la rovolution francaise),ofcourse we do that by correcting ourselves thus making them unemployed. as you see now the headless society ,desperately searching for leading figures...a whole U.N. assembly full of unemployed leaders,leaders? no man not leaders,just people trying to reduce our being on earth to that question(whether we had sexual relations with that woman or not,or whether the woman you had sex with was mankind or not,or whether we can get more out of her than just sex) you do good deeds..belief in God is implicit you do bad ..even if you explicitly claim to believe..you don't. since they made you do psycho tests i assume you're a low level "karrani" ,i don't expect you to understand all this.. ..so do you people have like batteries or do you run on solar power or..?? Did you forget to take your meds this morning???

Originally posted by muriidi: we can not "prove" the existence of god... we can only prove his necessity.. we really need God..that is clear... How is God necessary? Why do we need him? Incidently, I put the same question to one of my colleagues few days ago and she answered with another question - "How did you get this job? Its God who made it possible" I always find it amusing when people attribute their own hard work and effort on some invinsible sky being. To answer my colleague: I had to have a university degree just to be shortlisted, then went through various psychometric tests and finally 2 interviews to get the job. Its all due to my efforts, god did not play any part in it. Unfortunately, we dont see many people blaming God when things go bad - "The reason I didnt get that promotion is because of God".

Originally posted by genius pauper.: those beings who ascribe themselves to the sect so called "atheists" are but evidence for the existnce of GOD,. Please elaborate how I am "evidence"

Originally posted by genius pauper.: (for that matter like the atheist,) is just simply deny, in the name of seeking for evidence, while they are evidences for the existance of GOD. What evidence???

Originally posted by Raamsade: No, you deal with the evidence for human evolution that I presented first. You asked for it and I provided it. Be a man and either refute the evidence you specifically asked for or gracefully bow out of this debate. Sadly, he wont. Its a theme here, quick to ask for evidence but nver willing to provide any.

Originally posted by genius pauper.: how do you ascertain at first something which doesnt exist?..dont contradict your self. Tell you what, for once on this thread, why dont you and others provide the evidence to prove God's existance? I cant wait for it.

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence" That is GOD. How do you disapprove something that does not exist?

Originally posted by Abtigiis & Tolka: I don't see any difference of this scientist from a prophet. None of them offer irrefutable concerete evidence. My cosmic inurance policy or what I call Iiman is helping me to be a good person in this world whatever happens in the next. Somalia09, I don't know what you are missing. But life without faith must be so void. Me thinks. So why are you so quick to accept prophets and their fantastical stories without an ounce of evidence? Cosmic insurance policy? Isnt this similar to hedging your bets - just incase God does exist. What if that god turns out to be Apollo or Baal or Ra? Actually I find not having a faith quite liberating and makes me a better person. Let me ask you hypothetically: If somehow we are able to produce irrefutable concrete evidence that there is NO god, would you go out and start committing robbery, murder and rape???

"Che Guevara" ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION. Do you know what Atheism is?

Not such a lonely road, plenty of people on SOL with similar views. I am more interested in hearing about their journey to Atheism/Agnosticism.

Originally posted by Abtigiis & Tolka: I personally think this kind of debate is worthless. I don't like Mullahs who twist science and other developments to try to fit it to one Hadeeth or Aayah in the Quran. I think that is not fair, for I think they are not obliged to compete with science. In the end, the benefits of believing outwieghs what can be achived by not believeing in anything. Unless people stop believing in the Quran literally, Islam will always be in competition with Science. What benefits am i missing out on for being an Atheist?

After 10 pages of discussions, let me go back to the purpose of this thread. I am interested in hearing from other atheists or agnostics or anyone who is questioning their religious beliefs.

And there lies one of the evils of religion - it always tries to impose itself on everybody! If to you, by observing your faith YOU will go to "heaven" - isnt that all you should be concerned about?

Originally posted by Norfsky: Arac, ps isn't there evidence in other fossil records that suggest a great flood did actually occur? Is this being denied/challenged by evolutionists? Of Species? or talking about Noah?

Very well put Raamsaade. "G.G" - you have an eager audience waiting for you to discuss the EVIDENCE, the whole evidence and nothing but the evidence!

Its comical how religious people always assume atheists to be a "waste" or lack any purpose or direction in life just because we dont believe in an imaginary being in the sky. I dont have to keep my lack of belief to myself, why should I? You are free to express your beliefs (privately & publicly) and opinions derived from those beliefs and I believe I have the same rights to do so. I dont go around preaching people to give up their religion, I only encourage them to start thinking for themselves. I think one of the most saddest images (to me child abuse) is millions of children of muslim parents being asked to memorise the quran before they are taught their own languages and history let alone given the chance to develop reasoning ability. It is true that science does not know everything about everything in the world. But that is one of the beautiful aspects of science, its hunger to discover the unknown. Scientists are making extraordinary discoveries everyday about ourselves, the world, galaxy, universe etc. While religion aims to hold back progress. It attempts to explain everything so we should not bother! It seems to me that you are requesting proof that god himself does not exist, NOT the words contained in the Quran. Isnt the book his supposed words??? And if science can provide explanations (with evidence) to a range of things....say evolution or big bang, doesnt that discredit the quran and ultimately allah? Putting aside the Quran, there is nothing that ANYONE can provide you to prove that God (the actual being) does not exist. Its a result of imagination. I can say there is an invisible tea pot revolving around earth, contrary to science. What proof would you need to disapprove my claim?? God does not exist because science has shown that his supposed words in holy books to be false!!! Religious people have resorted to looking for God in the holes of science. For example evolution, we do not have the fossilized remains of every single animal to have lived but we have enough to support the theory. Same with our understanding of the origin of life and the universe. But when there is any holes in the current knowledge, you automatically shout....there you see! I told you its God!. And as science keeps filling its holes by adding new knowledge, you keep moving this imaginary being to new holes. You will one day run out of holes to hid him - what would you do? Will you become a "waste" as us atheists?

I AM somali and an atheist. Being somali doesnt automatically make one muslim, I believe our people were in existance long before Islam came about! So now being Atheist means being gay? Well in that case I should divorce my wife and shack up with a man!!! Thanks for the laugh.

Its comical how religious people always assume atheists to be a "waste" or lack any purpose or direction in life just because we dont believe in an imaginary being in the sky. I dont have to keep my lack of belief to myself, why should I? You are free to express your beliefs (privately & publicly) and opinions derived from those beliefs and I believe I have the same rights to do so. I dont go around preaching people to give up their religion, I only encourage them to start thinking for themselves. I think one of the most saddest images (to me child abuse) is millions of children of muslim parents being asked to memorise the quran before they are taught their own languages and history let alone given the chance to develop reasoning ability. To "Mr Somalia" It is true that science does not know everything about everything in the world. But that is one of the beautiful aspects of science, its hunger to discover the unknown. Scientists are making extraordinary discoveries everyday about ourselves, the world, galaxy, universe etc. While religion aims to hold back progress. It attempts to explain everything so we should not bother! It seems to me that you are requesting proof that god himself does not exist, NOT the words contained in the Quran. Isnt the book his supposed words??? And if science can provide explanations (with evidence) to a range of things....say evolution or big bang, doesnt that discredit the quran and ultimately allah? Putting aside the Quran, there is nothing that ANYONE can provide you to prove that God (the actual being) does not exist. Its a result of imagination. I can say there is an invisible tea pot revolving around earth, contrary to science. What proof would you need to disapprove my claim?? God does not exist because science has shown that his supposed words in holy books to be false!!! Religious people have resorted to looking for God in the holes of science. For example evolution, we do not have the fossilized remains of every single animal to have lived but we have enough to support the theory. Same with our understanding of the origin of life and the universe. But when there is any holes in the current knowledge, you automatically shout....there you see! I told you its God!. And as science keeps filling its holes by adding new knowledge, you keep moving this imaginary being to new holes. You will one day run out of holes to hid him - what would you do? Will you become a "waste" as us atheists

Originally posted by Arac: ^ Prove that GG doesn't have two fathers. Otherwise the belief that she has two fathers is as valid as the belief that she has a mother and a father. Its a valid point - lets see how theists explain it. To "Mr Somalia" - isnt that what the Quran is, just sentences with words and no proof!!!

"Mr Somalia" I have to say, you have amazing evasive abilities when it comes to answering points in discussions. You should be a politician! What evidence would you consider sufficient to prove God does not exist???? If the holy books (like the Quran) is the literal word of God, then by proving the claims it contains as FALSE - doesnt that tell you something???? Have you read (hopefully not from creatinist or religious sites/books) about the Evolution Theory & The Big Bang etc??? Or you are in league with your christian counterparts at the Creation Museum showcasing Dinosaurs and humans living side by side in some eden.

Again, I was not born muslim - I was a child of muslim parents!!! A child's motor and cognitive ability is not developed enough to make up their own mind on what they believe in let alone what religion to follow. By the way, I dont take any offense in being called Kafir, immoral, devils minion.....etc (according to your faith - not personal attacks). I am an ardent supporter of freedom of speech and choice. We should be able to discuss everything without beating around the bush, because I will say a lot of things you might consider blasphemous. Me copying& pasting the article above does not invalidate the information it bears. I thing the author did a brilliant job in dissecting the ridiculously absurd "scientific facts" in the Quran and Hadith. Why dont you for once explain the points raised in tne article? Rather than take the lazy way out by shifting the burden of proof to me. The websites below are good source of information for anyone who is having doubts, questioning their belief in Islam, or wishes to leave it all together : http://www.apostates ofislam.com/ http://www.infidels. org/library/modern/t heism/islam/ http://www.islam-wat ch.org Well even if you truly believe in your faith in Islam, there is nothing wrong with visiting the sites above and reading the articles and information presented.

Incidently below is a fascinating and funny article about the so called "scientific" facts in the Quran - enjoy! Islamic Science: Does Islamic literature contain scientific miracles? (From Infidels.org) Over the last decade growing numbers of Muslims have declared the Qur'an to be a book filled with alleged scientific miracles. Numerous web sites, books and videos have been produced that proclaim Islam to be truly a religion of divine origin, citing "scientifically accurate" statements in the Qur'an and Hadiths. Many of these productions introduce their claims with a statement like this: One of the most remarkable things in the Quran is how it deals with science. The Quran which was revealed in the 7th century to Muhammed (p.b.u.h.) contains unbelievable scientific facts which are being discovered in this century. Scientists are shocked and many times speechless when they are shown how detailed and accurate some verses in the Quran are to modern science. For those who doubt the truth of Islam, I ask you: Could Muhammad, a 7th century desert Arab , from a poor and barbaric society, with no tradition of knowledge, philosopy and learning as the Greeks, with no author as prolific as Homer or Plato, an uneducated orphan who could not read and write, produce a book like the Qur'an if it was not from God? This article will confront this question, as well as confront the various verses from the Qur'an which Muslim's cite as scientific miracles. This article will also look into various scientific absurdities found in the Qur'an and Hadiths that many Muslims fail to mention. Of the roughly 1.3 billion Muslims on the planet, 90% are Sunni. Therefore, this article will confront the teachings of Sunni Islam. Hadith literature is, for the most part, unique to Sunni Islam, as many other sects (Shia, Submitter, Sufi) do not regard such writings as highly as the Sunnis do. Because of this, citing various Hadiths is only relevant in a discussion about Sunni Islam. Creation of Earth Modern scholars have criticized the bible for it's claim that the Earth was created in six days. This has been waved off as just another myth concocted by an ancient people to explain how the world was created. The Qur'an has made the same mistake regarding the amount of time needed to create the earth, as is seen in the following verse: And verily We created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six Days, and naught of weariness touched Us. (Qur'an 50:38) It is a known fact that Muhammad had contact with Jews and Christians, and much of the Qur'an is modeled after the Bible. While the Qur'an does not have the bible's claim that "on the seventh day God rested" (Genesis 2:2) it still proclaims the earth to be created in six days. Muslims who seek to cast the Qur'an as being compatible with modern science, point out that the Qur'an also says that a day for Allah and the angels is similar to 50,000 years (Qur'an 70:4). In citing this verse, Muslims try to say the Earth was completed in 300,000 ( 6 x 50,000 ) years. While it is a nice try, the reality is this still does not agree with modern science, which states that it took several billion years for the Earth to reach this stage. Billions of years passed before there were trees, or forests, or animals. Furthermore, such claims open the Qur'an to more criticism. The verse that allegedly says a day equals 50,000 years (Qur'an 70:4) states: "The angels ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty thousand years." This verse actually seems to be discussing the speed of travel for angels. Possibly it is saying that the angels can travel in a day, the amount of space it would take others 50,000 years to cover. My goal is not to offer alternative interpretations to this myth. However, I dispute the claim that the this verse is saying a day equals 50,000 years because such a thing contradicts other parts of the Qur'an! A day cannot equal 50,000 years because according to the Qur'an, a day equals 1,000 human years (Qur'an 22:47 & 32:5). Furthermore, to claim that it took Allah 300,000 years to create the Earth is to insult the God of Islam, as when he creates, he says "Be!" and it is (Qur'an 2:117). The Qur'an on Embryology In 1982 Keith Moore, an anatomy professor at the University of Toronto, produced a textbook titled "The Developing Human, 3rd edition". In this book Moore states his astonishment at the way embryonic development is depicted in the Qur'an. Moore would go on to produce fourth and fifth editions of his textbook, as well as another book titled "Human Development as described in the Quran and Sunnah", all of which many Muslims cite with great pleasure. Moore and his Muslim supporters are referring to the following verse: We placed him as sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm into a clot of blood; then of that blood clot We made a lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be God, the best to create! (Quran 23:13-14) Indeed, at first glance, this seems like a remarkable statement for a "7th century desert Arab" to make. However, upon closer study, one realizes that there is both explanation and error to this verse. First we must ask if this was an original theory, and second we must ask if it is correct. Many people are amazed by the mention of sperm in this verse. This is nothing special. Since the beginning of time man has been aware of the "seed" that is released from the penis during sexual intercourse. The Bible, a text much older than the Qur'an, tells a story of a man who was struck down by God for "spilling his seed on the ground" (Genesis 38:9-10). The entire study of human life as mentioned in the Qur'an is not original at all. While Muslims try to claim that Muhammad made these statements before scientists discovered them, they are wrong. Theories of the formation of a child inside the womb was put forth by Aristotle nearly 1,000 years before the Qur'an was written. In fact Aristotle correctly described the function of the umbilical cord, something not mentioned in the Qur'an, showing that earlier philosophers were aware of such things mentioned by Muhammad and more. Every mention of human development in the Qur'an is similar to Roman and Greek theories. Consider the following verse referring to sperm: He is created from a drop (of sperm) emitted-- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs. (Qur'an 86:6-7) Clearly this verse is incorrect, and clearly it has origins in earlier theories. First of all, for sperm to originate between the back and the ribs would mean that it comes from the kidneys! We now know that semen is produced in the testicles, but people in Muhammad's time did not know this. Eleven centuries before Muhammad, the Greek physician Hippocrates theorized that sperm passed through the kidneys into the penis. For centuries this was an accepted (and incorrect) belief of the origins of sperm. There are those who claim Muhammad had no contact with Greeks or Romans. Pre-Islamic Arabia definitely had contact with Byzantium, Syria, Egypt, Persia, and Babylon. There were many Jews and Christians living in the area, and they were familiar with Greek or Roman philosophy. The Christians were connected to Rome. The Jews were connected to Babylon and Persia. It is easy to see how such theories regarding embryonic development may have reached Muhammad. Finally, to touch back on the verses that spoke of the development of an unborn child, I will say they too are incorrect. The Qur'an stated that the blood clot was turned to bone and then God "clothed the bones with flesh" (Quran 23:13-14). It is scientific fact that living tissue forms first, and then bones grow at a later time, and continue to gain strength (by building calcium) for many years after birth. Therefore, this is one of many scientific inaccuracies in the Qur'an. Scientific Absurdities in the Qur'an and Hadith To believe in the Qur'an is to not think rationally. There are numerous myths and scientific errors within the text of the Qur'an, and the Hadiths. Muslims accept many scientific absurdities with blind devotion. The world has matured as a whole, and has shed many of the fears and superstitions held by primitive cultures of the past. Unfortunately, because the text of the Qur'an is revered, people do not question many superstitious concepts that Muslims should have outgrown long ago. To begin, I would like to give an example of a myth from Hindu culture. According to Hindu tradition, the god Siva would leave his wife home alone for long periods of time. One day she took skin from her own body, and used it to create a child. The child was used to protect her, and the house. When Siva returned, the child refused to let him enter the house. Without hesitation Siva drew his sword and decapitated the child. Siva's wife was quite angry, and to make up for what he did, Siva went out and cut off the head of an elephant, and placed it on the child's body. This is why the Hindu deity Ganesh has the body of a human, but the head of an elephant. Now that I have told this story, will any Muslim believe it? Of course not. It is an absurd myth. There is no need to debate this issue, it is obvious that this is not true. It is a myth created by a primitive culture. If it is easy to see that this is a myth, why is it so difficult for Muslims to see the myths within their own text? I will now give a run down of some of the scientific errors in the Qur'an. The Qur'an has a story of a woman who has never had sexual intercourse (a virgin) that becomes pregnant and gives birth (Qur'an 19:16-21). This is a myth deeply rooted in many cultures. Muslims are used to debating with Christians, so they are never told that virgin birth is impossible, as this is a doctrine of Christianity as well. The reality is, this is a scientific absurdity. The Qur'an tells us that this same child who was born of a virgin mother is able to speak in complete sentences at only a day old (Qur'an 19:29-33)! While Muslims and Christians are debating the scientific knowledge written in the pages of the Qur'an, a rational thinker can clearly see that this idea of the talking baby, born of a virgin mother, is absurd. It was a myth adopted by Muhammad, and inserted into the text of the Qur'an. For further scientific absurdities consider the following Hadith: Sahih Muslim, Book 40, Number 6985: Narrated AbuHurayrah: Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) said: The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews. A rational person can quickly realize the ridiculous nature of this Hadith. There is scientific error at so many levels. First, the idea of stones and trees talking is from the realm of fairy tales. In order for the stone or tree to talk, it would need a brain, lungs, the proper vocal cords, and an understanding of the language it is speaking. Equally disturbing is the claim that one of these trees, the Gharqad, will take sides with the Jews. If the thought of trees and stones talking was not enough, the Qur'an mentions clouds that can speak. Allah said to the clouds "come willingly or unwillingly" and they said "we come willingly" (Qur'an 41:11). Most readers pass right by this verse, but many questions come up when analyzing it. At what point does water vapor become conscious? Is a water molecule alive? With two atoms of hydrogen, and one of oxygen, where is the brain or the orifice required for speech? Stories of non-living matter (rocks, etc) acting similar to living organisms is also found in the Qur'an. There are stories of mountains that have fear (Qur'an 33:72). Fear is an emotion which is caused by chemical impulses in the brain. Do the mountains, made a stone and dirt, have brains with these chemical impulses taking place? One major scientific error in the Qur'an can be seen in the following verses: And he followed a road; Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness. (Qur'an 18:85-86) This is a major scientific blunder in the Qur'an. A man walked until he reached the setting place of the sun, and saw it setting in a muddy spring. Modern science has taught us that the earth revolves around the sun. The above excerpt from the Qur'an seems to state that it is the sun that moves, as well as sets on earth! If the sun were to touch the surface of the earth, everything would be incinerated, and all life would die. Another curiosity is the mythical beings known in Islam as Jinn. There are Muslims who believe that Jinn stand on top of each other's shoulders all the way up to heaven, and listen to what is being discussed. There is a Hadith narrated by Aisha (Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 93, Number 650) that says soothsayers and psychics receive some of their information from Jinn who stealthily acquire this info by listening to the discussions in heaven. The Qur'an says that the stars were created to defend heaven from such eavesdroppers (Qur'an 37:6-8), as well as saying that the stars are used as missiles (projectiles) to drive them away (Qur'an 67:5). First of all, if Jinn can reach heaven by standing on the shoulders of one another, that means heaven is a given distance from earth. If this is true, then eventually we will be able to fly to heaven by space shuttle, or see it with a telescope. What is far worse in this theory is the thought that stars are used to throw at the Jinn. Stars are essentially stationary, but one can imagine how 7th century Arabs might have been in awe of the sights in the sky. This myth seems to confuse shooting stars with stars. The authors of the Qur'an and Hadiths probably thought stars and "shooting stars" were the same thing, when in reality they are not. According to the Qur'an there was a man who could understand the speech of animals (Qur'an 27:18-19). While zoologists have formed methods of communicating with apes and chimps, no human being has ever been able to understand the "language" of species different from our own. The ability to speak like a human is formed by advanced brains with complex thought patterns, something most animals do not have. Therefore, to think that a man could understand the spoken language of another animal is absurd. What is even worse is the verses cited have this man hearing the speech of ants! It is a scientific fact that ants have no speech patterns. They communicate through chemical trails, and other forms of odor. In otherwords they communicate via smell, not sound! This blunder is understandable, as the average desert Arab in the seventh century would not know this. However this lack of knowledge of the animal kingdom proves human origin of the text, and disputes theories of a divine origin. The Qur'an states that Allah created the sky in layers. He created seven heavens, and decked the lowest heaven with lamps (Qur'an 67:3-5) and adorned it with the beauty of the stars (Qur'an 37:6). The Qur'an also states that the moon is within these seven heavens (Qur'an 71:15-16). If the stars (lamps) are in the lowest heaven, they are either closer to the earth than the moon, or are at an equal distance from the earth as the moon. Either way this is scientifically inaccurate. It is a known fact that the stars are much farther away than the moon. The following Hadith speaks of monkeys that are Muslims: Sahih Bulhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 188: Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun: During the pre-lslamic period of ignorance I saw a she-monkey surrounded by a number of monkeys. They were all stoning it, because it had committed illegal sexual intercourse. I too, stoned it along with them. It is a rule in both Islam and Judaism that women who commit adultery are to be stoned. According to the above Hadith monkeys were subject to this law as well. What other laws do monkeys follow? Are they required to make a pilgrimage to Mecca? Are they required to read the Qur'an? What constitutes adultery in the monkey world? This is simply a myth. This is similar to a story found in the Ramayana, an ancient Hindu epic, that talks of the monkey Hanuman, and others of his kind, fighting for control of the monkey kingdom. There is a Hadith (Sahih Buklhari Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490) which states that if a woman or a dog passes in front of you while you are praying, your prayer will not make it to heaven. While there are chauvinistic implications here, I'd like to focus on the scientific aspect. What is it about women and dogs that nullify prayers? Are the prayers carried by a type of sonic wave that women and dogs disrupt? It is obvious that there is no scientific explanation to this absurd myth. No one should be surprised by this, as numerous Hadiths say dogs are evil, and should be killed. Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 540 says plainly: "Allah's Apostle ordered that the dogs should be killed." Of course when it comes to killing animals, there are different laws for different species. Dogs are to be killed instantly, however snakes are to first get verbal warning if he comes to your house. If the snake comes a second time, kill him (Sunan Abu Dawud Book 41, Number 5240). The interesting thing about such a Hadith is the fact that snakes cannot hear. It is bad enough to assume that any animal would understand you giving a verbal warning, but to assume that an animal that is deaf will understand you is ridiculous. It is the equivalent of writing a note for a bat, and leaving it on your door so that he may read it later. The following Hadith shows the poor sanitation habits of Muhammad and his followers: Sunan Abu Dawud Book 1, Number 0067: Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: I heard that the people asked the Prophet of Allah (peace_be_upon_him): Water is brought for you from the well of Buda'ah. It is a well in which dead dogs, menstrual clothes and excrement of people are thrown. The Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) replied: Verily water is pure and is not defiled by anything. The issue here is not hygiene, but rather a lack of scientific understanding of bacteria, viruses, and germs that can be present in water. Excrement is a very common cause of water becoming contaminated with Escherichia coli (E. coli), a bacteria commonly found in the colon that is deadly to humans if ingested. Water contaminated with dead dogs or menstrual fluids can be equally dangerous. Conclusion Muslims cite alleged scientific miracles in the Qur'an and Hadiths to try and prove a divine origin of their faith. In this short study of Islamic science, these claims have been debunked. Clearly there was no supernatural force giving Muhammad scientific information. While the Muslims argued that advanced scientific knowledge in the Qur'an is a sign of divine origin, the rational thinker points out that the numerous and obvious scientific errors point to a wholly human origin.

Hey, I guess I have missed out on some entertaining debate while I was away, but then again who would log on here when you are in beautiful Barbados. First of all - THANK YOU "Raamsdaye" for beautifully elaborating on the theory of Evolution, the evidence and its wonders! However, I am sure you realise that most religious people are not willing to open their minds or be critical of their faith regardless of what evidence is laid out to them. The terms "muslim children" or "born muslim" have been used several times on this post and I would like to point out that it is wrong. Children are too young to determine what they believe in let alone what religion to follow. And its not like there is a religious trait in our genes that makes one "muslim". The correct terms is children of muslim parent. I dont understand why someone will view a culture of doubt in the west as a negative trait. Surely this is a mark of intelligence. All religions by nature favour mysteries, sort like dont bother with trying to find out about anything in this world, just attribute it to God period! Thankfully early scientists had the courage to seek knowledge (evidenciary) beyond what was in holy books. Lets not forget many where tortured and killed because they found contradictory facts. I have always been baffled by the most over-used God explanation: God is capable of anything and beyond natural realm. In effect, you can make any fantastical stories (Noah's ark, parting the sea, virgin births..etc) because all he needs to do is snap his fingers. And thats why I said earlier that no amount of evidence is sufficient because to you no natural laws/evidence/explan ations can be used to prove or disaprove God's existance. What a childish belief!!! Someone on here suggested that it is sad that I have forgotten my heritage by abondaning Islam. It is funny how Islam (or correctly religious & cultural colonialisation) has become our heritage. Unfortunately our history and heritage did not start when we our people adopted Islam. Surely, prostrating yourself five times a day towards arabia is the ultimate symbol of this colonisation. I will reiterate that I have no problem with religion but dont hold the Quran to me as "facts" or "scientific". It is simply a record of hearsay not revelations. It is a revelation to the first person (Muhammad - pbuh) and hearsay to every other. There is nothing scientific about the Quran, half of its supposed facts are false and the other half copied from previous works. E.g: Sperm & reproduction - copied from Galen, Aristotle, Hippocrates etc No doubt religion does provide some measure of comfort or consolation in people's lives but lets not forget the evil's it incites. If you take a minute and make a list of wars or ethnic cleansings you can remember - I promise you the majority of them would be due to religion. From Rwanda, Northern Ireland, Iraq, bosnia, to Sudan etc. Lets not also forget other evils such as slavery, child abuse, subjugation of women etc, endorsed and encouraged by religion. In addition, Islam (any religion) always try to impose itself on everyone. There is no such thing as personal freedom, never was and never will sadly. I am an Apostate, and in Saudi Arabia I would be put down or sent to prison in Pakistan. Islam tries to control every aspect of your life. There is a lot of evidence from various fields supporting the theory of evolution that is why it accepted. I have also come across some references to "proofs in the Quran" - What proofs??? I am well acquainted with the quran and never came across any. Please can someone do so! Yes Muhammad (pbuh) did change the arabian peninsula, not through his words of wisdom or peace but by the point of sword. Most muslims are quite ignorant about the quran and the story of the prophet from muslim sources such Bukhari, Al-Tabari etc. There was no anarchy before Muhammad from historical sources. And in terms of his exellent moral character, what about his infamous history of myriads of cruelties, killings, plundering, pillages, enslavements, sexual lusts of ludicrous proportion??? Or did that escape you. Lets start with simple examples: - when he was sending out raiding parties to rob merchants on the way to Persia, a bandit?? Actually he led the first 2 raids which failed. - The khyabar episode? - the massacre of the jewish tribe (Banu Quraiza) who welcomed him in Medina when he left Mecca. about 600/700 people on the marke square and after retire with Ryhana - a woman whose entire male family he just killed! - The spoils of war: killing most males, children into slavery, gave women to his soldiers to "enjoy" and some he kept as his concubines. -marrying his adopted son's wife? - the famous story(and to me very telling of human desire)when the prophet was caught in bed by one of his wife with Mary the slave girl. PLEASE look into this. - what he did to those who opposed him? Look into what he did to the woman who wrote poetry against the him! Chew into above and I will list some more interesting later. I am sure some people will be quick to point out that the environment back then was quite different and we cant judge him by modern standards........ If you do then you open yourself to further questions. Most of the actions of the prophet were sanctioned by revelations he supposedly received before or after the acts. Islam requires people to take the Quran literally and thus I can critique it literally. Atheism is not a religion. We believe in evidence and if tomorrow we found out something new or contrary to current knowledge about something - then we change our mind. Science and our current knowledge is ever expanding while religion only aims to drag or hold us back. It is slowly becoming redundant. Today christian churhes are dwingling, tomorrow it would be mosques! Another person stated that there is no hope in the theory of evolution, what do you prefer? a faith that relies in crudelity, ignorance and lies??? Evolution is exactly why you should realise how lucky you are to have been born and you only have this life - make the most of it! As Napoleon once said - "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quite". Science has disapproved the existance of God by disapproving the claims made in holy books (word of god) in terms of creation of universe, man, nature etc. It is as if you are challenging science to disapprove his existance NOT his claims/revelations. If god's messages are disapproved then he either does not exist OR he does but for some reason choose to lie to his prophets. In any case, shouldnt you be the first to provide evidence of his existance since you are making the claim that he does? If a scientist comes up with a theory, he would have to provide evidence before it gets to be accepted. Therefore, religion should not be left to get away with its fantasy stories. I do not make any apologies in any of my opinions above, I believe in free speech. We should be able to evaluate, debate & criticise any idea whether it is Polital, Moral, Economical or Religion.

Okay for the 3rd time, what is my profile name - "Somali09" - I believe it does say somali!!!! However, I still prefer to refer to the whole community as somalians. As incorrect it may be to others, its a term I and most people I know use. Atheism and Humanism - I dont recall saying that being an atheist automatically makes one a humanist, my actual words were "go hand in hand better than humanism and any religious system". They are not the same thing, there are subtle differences. The reason why they compliment each other is because BOTH SYSTEMS REJECT SUPERNATURALISM (including God) here are other doctrines that are similar: free enquiry, reason, personal freedom & choice, ethics based on human values (not holy books) etc. Now tell me does Islam stand for free enquiry?? Freedom to make your own choices?? I have to admit your statement about atheism rejecting evidentiary proof is baffling to me. Please educate me on what evidence that atheism (a supposedly evidence based system) rejects??? I believe in natural origin of life & evolution because the EVIDENCE that we have SUPPORTS it. On the other hand no religion has ever provided proof of the existance of God - by the way someone saying that they had an audience with god does not constitute evidence. To the person referring to me as Exhibit A: my comment about the All Merciful and Compassionate was not refferinig to you rather what you would like to do to me as an example of living up to one of the names of Allah! Atheist are just that ATHEIST. There are some people who may hid behind agnosticism and even more who will continue to follow in the religion they were born into out of either obligations or fear. Fear of what their families/friends/ community might react to them. However, there are still more of us, happily making our beliefs openly. Please explain to me why would it be "smart" to call oneself agnostic rather than atheism???? If i understand it correctly, YOU are saying that I have no right to say that God does not exist because I have no evidence to prove he doesnt exist. It makes sense at a glance but lets examine it more closely by looking at EVIDENCE. The reason why I am confident that there is no god is because all holy books are fallible. All the so called "scientific" facts mentioned in the Quran are either false or borrowed from existing knowledge at the time. You would thing an "intelligent" being with limitless powers will mention to his prophet of our evolution, history, age of dinosours.....etc. But suprise suprise it doesnt. Apparently, human history started with Adam & Eve no more than 10 yrs ago. So if the evidence that we have disputes all the so called facts put forth in the quran - which is wrong? Its basically what we call "God of Holes". Let me elaborate, science does not have 100% knowledge about EVERYTHING in the universe. But its beauty and what drives scientist is the desire to unravel the unknown. And what religion does is that it finds holes in the scientific knowledge and automatically declares "There you see...its filled by god explanation". Unfortunately, as we know more and plug the holes, religion keeps moving its god to other holes for so called "evidence". How long do you think you can continue pushing the goalpost??? I thing its best that people acquaint themselves with the Big Bang theory rather than think its all about BOOOOM, EXPLOSIONS and SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING. I suggest you check out the link below: http://www.umich.edu /~gs265/bigbang.htm Its such an amazing theory. And again the evidence we currently have supports this theory. HOWEVER, what we do not know for certain is what was there before the big bang. There are some theories put forth like for example the universe has always gone through Big Bangs and Busts - but nothing YET to definately support a particular theory. I am curious, why the Big Bang never mentioned in the Quran (or any other holy book)? That galaxies are moving apart in all directions....etc??? ?? I seriously could not believe what you wrote that the scientific knowledge that we have constitutes "fairy tales". Commonnnn!!! I suppose explanations such as: - World created in 6 days. - Eve coming from adam - Noahs Ark (over 50,000 species in one boat....by the way how did the Kangaroo jump his way from Australia) - Prophets (humans) living for hundreds of years - flying on a horse between cities etc....etc......etc. .....etc THAT DOES NOT CONSTITUTES FAIRY TALES??????? Have you read and examined the Quran fully?? Somethings just dont make sense.