The sentence is too harsh. I understand the idea is to discourage other men, but no one should be punished as an example to others. I like Waterlily's idea: have the man groped in public. But by another man.

Khayr, Originally posted by Khayr: 100 lies amidst one truth.... I agree and I personally do my part as a muslim inshallah and let my character speak more volumes, just follow the various sunnans(prophetic traditions/practices) and inshallah just be true to my deen. Khayr, it's in your character to indulge in name-calling, hyperbole, and expecting people to agree with you because you repeat the same thing again and again in capital letters. If you were right about people expecting Muslims to apologize for the actions of a few, I would be demanding that the Muslims of SOL issue a heartfelt apology for your behavior. I don't know what Sunnah you're following, but be true to the niceties of online discussions at least. Quit the ad hominem attacks. I don't see you asking about why the Americans put an embargo on Iranians for wanting an islamic state, why iraqi kids were starved to death b/c of american lead boycotts (100,000's of children, old people). How come you dont' FIRE AWAY and BLAME OTHERS? Okay, obviously you can't tell a difference between the actions of states and those of individuals. Clearly, YOU are to blame for Siad Barre's bombing of Hargeisa, and just as clearly, Somalia is to blame for that dude in Minneapolis accused of molesting a young girl. Then again, I don't want to leave the impression that I approve of U.S. actions, or that I think as citizens we are not responsible. But one ought to be mindful of whether the response fits the offense. Yes, America's embargo of Iraq is wrong, so let's go kill some Canadians is hardly a rational argument. As to the maker of the cream cheese, he supports Denmark and if that company doesn't lobby the government to get the EDITOR fired (theY got the money and the power to do so) and just supports their government's actions, then they should be boycotted. Afterall, they make their money from Muslims too. I see your reasoning here. So if an Italian priest in Turkey dies because a Danish tabloid angered a Muslim youth (who predictably murdered him while screaming "allahu akbar"), which government should the Italian priest petition to remove the offense to the Muslim youth? The Italian gov't? The Danish gov't? Do you really expect a non-Muslim to feel Muhammed's honor was legitimately defended in this case? So is it ok for a Muslim then to include in almost every conversation they have with an americann, that an APOLOGY should be made for AMERICANSS massacring kids in Falluja in Nov./dec. 2004? Or killing Afghani people from a Tomcat f-14 high up in the sky, like it was a video game? etc... I was under the impression that they already do. I've never met a Muslim who did not blame and dislike Americans for their actions (and inactions) in the Muslim world. The key isn't that Muslims blame Americans, it's that Americans by and large don't care. On the other hand, Muslims care what non-Muslims think about Islam, the Prophet, etc. Part and parcel of a religion seeking converts, I'm afraid. If Muslims don't like apologizing, all they have to do is stop. There's no law stating that CAIR is requires to give a press conference every time some Muslim does something unsavory. I have a feeling that CAIR wouldn't mind such a law though. Also, why do Americans BLAME BUSH for everything, last time i recall, a whole lot of americans continue to sign up WILLINGLY to join the ARMY. Bush didn't win with a 1000 votes, rather millions supported him. Bush manipulated the political process to "win" the elections in 2000, and then manipulated gullible and not-so-bright Americans to win re-election in 2004. I didn't vote for him either time, I didn't support the war on Iraq, and I and nearly half of the voting population of America disagree with his policies. As for the army, they've had well-documented difficulties recruiting even the clueless high schoolers of Middle America, so much so that they are toying with filling the ranks with high school drop-outs. Not exactly my idea of Americans "willingly" to join the army. When it comes to common facts, you must get yours out of the Twilight Zone, Khayr. Also, when its time to rescue an American, they all become united as Americans and are more then willing to support that rescue by ANY means NEcessary(even if it includes killing children, innocent people. To them, they are incidentals.) That's true. Sad, but that's Americans/Chinese/Turks/Somalis for you. In every culture there are those who hold their race, nationality, religion or what have you above right and wrong. The muslim has to apologize for everything related to Muslims and Islam-Tell me why again they have to do that??? Okay, Khayr, you've repeated this a million times. When you say "has to", are you refering to legally? In which way are Muslims compelled to apologize? Can you give us some documented cases in which Muslims where dragged kicking and screaming to a press conference and told to apologize? Just one?

Originally posted by WaTerLily: Similarly, our very own Castro was spoted purchasing hair re-growth products in a local pharmacy. It seems to be in vogue following Tuujiye's near-admission of surgery. The fellow was disguised in a long black Mac and huge black glasses (no doubt a remains of 80s fashion). Nonetheless, his military style walking reminiscent of his hero Fidel betrayed him as to his true identity. LOL@military style. Thanks a lot Waterlily, I was laughing so hard I didn't hear my supervisor sneak up behind me.

There's a reason why those guys are icons, Castro. And I'll thank you to add Sayyidka to the list. As for what to do about our problems, damned if I know. Things are just a little maddening for me right know, I feel like dropping out of school and joining the Peace Corps or something. It seems kind of callous and elitist to be applying for million dollar grants to study cell membranes when a dollar a day is unimaginable riches to some segments of the global community.

I suggest Somali parents in Britain spend less time fiddling with buugta cayrta and more time overseeing buugta carruurtooda. I have never seen a less ambitious community of Somalis. Unless things have changed in the last couple of years, Maryooley in the UK don't work, don't own businesses, and don't make any effort to improve their children's access to education and resources. Even in my own family, the ones who live in Europe--and particularly Britain--are underachievers on an epic scale.

Atheer my eyes used to water every time I saw those bold characters jumping out among a veritable sea of verbiage, but now I realize I might've been missing out on stuff. <--Off to make a cup of coffee for a long session reading every article, come hell or high water.

Hello Mr. Jibis, Originally posted by Mr. Jibis: You may have said it's dangerous, but you also said it's "natural", which implies it's OK. Not to me. Lots of objectionable things are natural. I meant in a biological sense, a couple of teens might have hormones getting the best of them, and it's dangerous because they are not the most responsible of creatures, but at least they are somewhat less likely to victimise one another. On the other hand, there's something deeply wrong with a 64 year old marrying a 13 year old. I don't have to know them personally to conclude that, Mr. Jibis. I know 13 year old girls. I was one myself, and in pristine Somalia rather than the corrupt West. And, like other 13 year olds, the thought of bonking a man the same age as my grandfather would have been abhorrent and horrifying. Play all the cultural relativism angles you want. It's just plain wrong. I have said in this thread already that I disagree with him marrying this many women, as a temporary marriage is haram. That's not the point I'm trying to make. The point I'm trying to make is that if the guy is 50 years older than his wife, it doesn't matter because she is old enough to make her own decision in marrying him. And my point is that real-world experience tells me a 13 year old did not happily concede to marrying a 64 year old man with 4 wives, 54 ex-wives and 15 children (some of whom are probably older than her). We can argue forever about whether she's mature enough or not, or we can err on the side of caution and assume that, like other 13 year olds the world over, she'd rather be in 8th grade. Just a question.....Do you know this girl personally, or this old guy, for that matter? All we know is that he's married 58 times, and is currently married to a 13 year old girl. If this girl was forced into marriage, do you think he would be bragging about it over the internet? Why not? From what angle would he fear discovery? The Saudi authorities? Do you honestly think they would go to this girl (against her so-called husband's will) and interview her to determine if she married him willingly? When her adult counterparts are not allowed to vote, or drive a car, or travel to a neighboring town without their husbands writing them a permission slip? By the way, I like how you question my "morality" because I don't agree with you. I'm sorry. Not a very classy move in retrospect. I got a little carried away.

Some really good points, Tolstoy. What I know about the ever changing landscape of Somali politics wouldn't fill a teaspoon, so your analysis shed some light on the situation. Xamar cadey maxaa la madoobeeyey.

Come on, people. Do you expect Israelis to feel bad about Arabs, or for Yemenis to help out Palestinians, when Somalis don't give a fig about fellow Somalis? It's easy to roll our eyes at the duplicity of the Jews, or the selfishness of the Arabs, while turning a blind eye to our own dirty laundry. It's fun pointing fingers, but let's clean house before we judge others, eh? Or at the very least let's have a moratorium on attacking Arabs, Jews, Americans or Danes until we figure out why Xaliimos in Minneapolis are on Jenny Craig while little Faarax in Juba is drinking his own urine to alleviate thirst.

^Actually the ratio is closer to 5:1.

Originally posted by Mr. Jibis: quote: But to me there's a whole lot of difference between a couple of 16 year old teens involved in a bit of hanky panky, and a 13 year old "married" to some old geezer. The first is dangerous but natural, the second is exploitation and pedophilia. So what you're saying is that 2 teenagers who aren't married and just f**k for fun is OK, while a marriage that is completely halal and registered before God himself is not OK? What is this world coming to? I suggest you do some reading.I didn't say it's "OK", I said it's "dangerous". I suggest you read what you quote. There's nothing sacred about a man having sex with 50+ women under the pretext of marriage. A marriage is only valid when two people enter into it willingly, and treat it like a marriage and not a carousel, jumping off this ride, hopping on that one. If you don't have any problem with this man's actions, then that's a reflection on your morality. quote: Does anyone really think this 13 year old girl accepted a proposal from this man of her own freewill? Or was there a business exchange between two old men, with one getting camels and the other getting a child bride? Most people don't fully accept to get married, whether they're 13 or 63. It's something you do "head-first". And if the girl did not accept and was forced into this marriage by her father, both men will be judged before Allah SWT for it. It's none of our concern. So if a 13 year old girl is forced into a travesty of a marriage, you feel it's none of your concern? It's all going to be sorted out in an afterlife? Again, a reflection on your morality.

Psychologically, few people really reach maturity until well past puberty, which occurs at different ages. On the side of caution, I would protect children by making the onset of adulthood as late as possible. But to me there's a whole lot of difference between a couple of 16 year old teens involved in a bit of hanky panky, and a 13 year old "married" to some old geezer. The first is dangerous but natural, the second is exploitation and pedophilia. Does anyone really think this 13 year old girl accepted a proposal from this man of her own freewill? Or was there a business exchange between two old men, with one getting camels and the other getting a child bride?

Talk about stupidh laws.

How do you figure that? I don't know what his defense strategy was, but did he challenge the law itself as "unconstitutional"? Keep in mind this is Austria and not the US. They no doubt have different mechanisms for striking down laws.

Castro, no. The compiler of the list you gave is taking advantage of a simple rule in the US: unless a law is challenged, it's never struck down "off the books". These laws are essentially little fossils of a bygone era. As soon as some eager beaver of a DA decides to prosecutor someone for wearing a fake moustache in church, the law will be found to be unconstitutional or just plain idiiotic. Otherwise it stays in the law books to entertain us. The law pertaining to Irving is clearly not of the same cloth, since it is both stoopid AND being actively enforced. It's no excuse that there are other equally egregious laws internationally.

I don't normally hold any truck with torture or the death penalty, but I can turn a blind eye where this dude is concerned.

It's a stoopid counterproductive law that seemed reasonable in its historical context but no longer makes any sense. Only eediots deny the Holocaust, but silencing them or punishing them just gives them a legitimate platform on which to spout nonsense.

Well whadya know? True love triumphs over sour grapes...

I thought it was one of Ngonge's more readable posts actually.

I agree with Caano Geel, but I'm polite. CG, just make sure it's fair trade coffee you're addicted to.

Substitute another caffeine source, like tea or chocolate. But drinking 1 cup of coffee a day is good for you.

^Yes, that's what you meant. This is an article from The Onion. People should at least hover their mouse pointer over where it says "Source".

I think Somalia wasn't on the list last year. Perhaps Transparency International is signalling that they are behind Yeey's gov't since they consider it to be legitimate. Corrupt but legitimate. As for their methodology Evaluation of the extent of corruption in countries is done by country experts, non resident and residents (in the CPI 2005, this consists of the following sources: CU, EIU, FH, MIG, UNECA and WMRC); non-resident business leaders from developing countries (in the CPI 2005, this consists of the following sources: II); and resident business leaders evaluating their own country (in the CPI 2005, this consists of the following sources: IMD, PERC, and WEF). None of these sound like likely sources for evaluating Somalia. The US should definitely dip below 15 since the Republicans came to power. Witness Cheney's connections with Halliburton and Enron. If they didn't influence the decision to invade Iraq, I don't know what could.

Khayr, Why does A Muslim have to Apologize or be held accountable for whatever happens in the muslim world? They don't, but Muslims wouldn't be happy to know that one white Westerner has a negative perception of Islam. Muslims care a great deal about how possible converts view them; many are more concerned about how they look to outsiders than how they conduct themselves with fellow Muslims. By the way, why does all of Denmark have to apologize for the actions of a single Danish tabloid? Why is the maker of a cream cheese spread being held responsible for the decision made by the editor of Jyllands-Posten? As for Americans, some think Bush and co are right and so don't think they have anything to apologize for; some feel it's wrong, but don't care what non-Americans think of them; and some think Bush is wrong and do go out of their way to apologize to others. If you live in America, you've surely met all three kinds.

^ LOL@muqmad. Napoleon Dynamite impersonation: "Gosh!"