Addeenu Annaseexa Brother Have you read any of his books? Since you are weak of your understanding of the Arabic language, I suspect that you did, which leaves one possibility, that you take all Sheikh Dweesh said as true, thus sending Sayyid to Jahhannam as Kaafir. If you are only rely on a shiekh against a Sheikh, why not try to read what Sheikh Bakar Bin Zeyd, member of Kibaarul Culama, has written about Sayyid? or is he also the same like Sayyid. Like your name implies, I am giving you a naseexa, you are speaking about a pesron of which you may not know more than what you are told, be careful, brother, or at least go read his work end to end and then write. Nur

May Allah SWT have a mercy on His soul, forgive his sins, join him with the company of those Allah has favored, the Prophets, Martyrs, Righteous, and Siddiqiin. Fourty Years Ago He Wrote: " Laa budda lil bacthil Islaami min miilaad Wa laa buddaa lil miilaadi min Makhaad Wa laa budda lil makhaad min aalaam" " Islamic revival will be born, Labor will accompany the birth, and pain will accompany the labor" In the sixties, when the last nail was being screwed on the coffin of the sick man of Europe, Egypt became a modern nation, to more like Turkey, suddenly, Sayyid , the most captivating contemporary Arab writer, who was at time a secularist like most in his time, gets a scholarship to visit to study at Georgetown University in Washington, he travels on a Ocean liner for the first time for the trip. When Sayyid arrived and lived in USA for a while, the secularist writer became an Islamist digging for his roots. What changed the man? He memorized the Quraan as a kid, He was a Hafizul Quraan, and was imprinted in his heart, Allah SWT opened treasures of knowledge to this man, and when he came back, the Islamik revival was in full swing, and contiues to this day. Sayyid wrote numerous books, religious and literary, like his " Tiflun minal Qarya,( A child from the Village" and in his last days, his masterpiece, " Muqawimaatul Tasawur ul Islaami", in addition to a six volume tafseer in jail, accused for a crime he never committed and lynched unjustly for his faith, Sayyid lives through all those who benefited from his writing till the day of judgement, like all great leaders, sayyid accepted his fate with grace saying " Should I apologise for serving Allah SWT?"...................Should we, either? Like any scholar, Sayyid was not safe from slander, Imaam Shaafici was slandered before him, When he was snetenced to death, the late king Faisal interceded and pleaded to Nasser to spare him, but He was lynched in the morning, King Faisal, cried, and the all the scholars of the day shed tears that distance day. But he also had his share of critics, some who never read his books, nor understand his elequence and analogoies. Unfortunately the most vocal of his critics were those who could only stand tall on dead bodies, not on top of their own achievements, those who selectively read a passage of his work , and then misunderstand it and accuse him to be a Bidci, however, there is a day, Allah SWT will resurrect all mankind, so that he will tell them about their differences, that day, some people who thought that they were right may find themselves in the wrong place and ask; " How come we dont see men who we used to count them to be of the evildoers?" Sayyid is long gone, so will we all be, no one will remain on this planet, but what counts is that we live for our faith like all the scholars did, and accept the fate Allah decrees for us, no one but Allah gives life, and no one but Allah takes it away, and that is the core of our faith. Nur "If you dont Stand up for Allah SWT ALONE, you will fall for everything else"

Rudy Man! Where have you been saaxib? Al Hamdulillah that you are coming to the party, make sure you read the direction that I am about to post soon. Nur

Mutakallim Here are the other Devine books the Shia Scholars say were revealed specially for Imaam Ali Radiyallahu Canhu and the Imaams, SHIA SOURCES ONLY: 1. Al Jaamica Reported by Abu Baseer (A scroll seventy Diraac(Yards) long like the armlength of the prophet, SAWS, ........in it is all Halaal and all haraam, and everything people need" Source, Al Kaafi volume 1, page 239, and Bihaarul Anwaar, Volume 26 page 22 2. The Naamuus Scipture It was reported by Redha may peace be upon him, was asked concerning the story of the coming of the (missing)Imaam, He said " ..There will be a scroll with Him(imaam) in it there will be names of his Shia until the day of the judgement, and a scroll ofn the of the names of their (shia) enemies till the day of judgement" Source, Bihaarul Anwar, V25, P 117 3. Al Abiita Scipture It was reported that Amirul Muminiin (Ali) said: " I have many scriptures pieces of the Messenger of Allah SAWS and His Al Beit, in it there is a scripture called Al Abiita, and nothing (scripture) came down on Arabs so severe.." Source Bihaarul Anwar V26 P 37 4. Dhu'aabatul Saif Scripture Abi Baseer reported from Abu Abdallah aleyhi salaam, that there was in the Dhu'aabah (handle) of the sword belonging to the Messenger of Allah SAWS, a small scripture in it there was the key letters each opens thousand other letters (chain letters). Source Bihaarul Anwaar V 26 p 56 5. Ali Scripture , Source Biharul Anwaar, V27 P65 6. Al Jaffar, The White Jaffar, and The Red Jaffar Abi Alaa reported He said " I heard Aba Abdallah say " I have the White Jaffar" I asked him, " What is in the White Jaffar?" He said: " David's Scripture ( Zabur), Torah of Moses, Gospel of Jesus, and the scriptures of Abraham, May peace be upon them, and all Halaal and haraam, and I also have the Red Jaffar" I said " what is in the Red Jaffar?" He said " The weapon! because it will open up for blood, the owner of the sword will open to kill" Source Usuul Al Kaafi Volume 1 Page 24 A great Shia Scholar from Najaf Al Khoo'ee was asked about the Red Jaffar who will unleash it and whose blood will be spilled with the sword, he said " the absent Imam will open the sword when he comes and will spill the blood of the Caammah ( Nawaasib) ( The Sunnis) He will kill them and spill their blood like the Deglah and the Euphrates rivers and he ( The missing imaam) will take revenge on the the two idols of Qureish ( Abu Bakar and Omar) and their daughters ( Aisha and Hafsa) and Nactal ( Othman) and banu Umayyah and banu Abbas and he will desecrate their graves. 7. The Fatima Scripture Please read the following source. Bihatul Anwaar V26 p 41, 42, 48 8. It was reported that Abdillah aleyhi salam used to read the Torah and the Gospel in Siryaaniah language. Source Al Hujja from the Kaafi Volume 1 page 207 Translated from the Original arabic by a layman called: Nur 2004 e-Nuri Aqeedah Vigilante If you don't stand up for Allah ALONE, you'd fall for everything else.

Salafi Bro. The second part of your answer about the language is an answer for your question in the first part regarding the need for scholars to eduacating the nonscholars. I agree with you that not all people can read the Quraan and hadeeth to find answers to their questions, but depending on the complexity of a Mas'ala, a knowlege of the Arabic language, does help, however as Muslims we will always need specialists of specific Islamic sciences who are capable in making Fatwa after getting an ajaazah in that science. For example, in the Islamic countries, there are Colleges who offer specific programs in Islam, such as Majors like Arabic language concentration with a minor in either aqeedah or sharia or Dacwah. A Major in Dacwah, A major in Sharia, with a concentration in (Al Biyiuuc Wal Mudaarabah) Business, or a concentration in civil matters (marriages, child custody etc), or a concentration on ( al Xuquuq al jinaa'iyah) criminal law. That track of knowledge stream offers al the way to a doctorate level after a religious student in Universities like jaamicatul imaam Sacuud, or Ummul Qurah successfully defends a unique research proposal which in most cases he becomes more knowledgeable than his own Professors due to the meticulous research he conducted. However, there is a less regimented track of knowledge, it is more self study, and a supervision of a scholar who directs the student in finding the sources for his study, depending on how resourceful and driven a student is, one can become very knwledgeable if he focuses on a specific descipline in Islam, one such graet student who later became a great scholar was Al Qaadhi Ciyaadh, who after he was about to steal from a house heard a person in the house reading in his nightly prayers " Alam Ya'ni lilladiina aamanuu an takhshaca quluubuhum li dhikrillahi wa maa nazala minal xaqq" meaning, " isn't about time, in which believers hearts softened for the remembrance of Allah and the truth revealed" This Thief became a great scholar after he responded to that call from Allah SWT, he pushed his way in with the scholars of his time, but his guidance began with a sound knowledge of the far reaching meaning of the Quraan, as a Native speaker of the Arabic language. Nur

Salfi Bro. A simple question: Can you please tell me about the extent of your knowledge of the Arabic Language? its literature ( Balaagha), Grammar ( Naxw) , in other words, How much Arabic literature were you exposed to and for how long? Nur

Viking you write: " Why is it you want me to call myself SUNNI ir SHI'A? Can't you see here that you are NOT practising what you preach? " Answer: If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck! The hide and seek game is over, In the coming days, inshAllah I will post more Shia scholars views to show that your beliefs are serious issue, not like Salafi, Ikhwani difference. Because these schools accept the Quraan as complete, and they beleive the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad, they believe and love the Al al beit, they recognize Ali is the fourth Khalif, they never say anything wrong against Al al Beit, nor condone any ruler who did, but they do not believe they humans and infallible, nor do they believe the Rajcajh, the Earthily Qiyaamaha when Sunnis and Shia will be resurrected, before the Qiyamah in which Shia is supposed to take revenge on Sunnis, I am sorry if I failed to practice what I preach, it is an exception this time, but I congratulate you for being a true shia in action as you practice hiding your motives very well to dfened yourself against Naasib Sunni. Nur

Viking Yes I am addressing you, I am glad you finally got it, dont dodge the question, Do you believe the materials I posted are from Shia sources? Do you believe if they exisit that they are reliable Shia sources? I mean Kuleiny's Al Kaafi book and the other sources? You owe me an asnwer, you have once asked me bluntly who was right, Mucaawiyah or Ali, I didnt beat around the bush like you, I said " in that dispute Ali was right" By the way, I made a ducaa for you in my prayer, that rules out hatred. Patiently waiting for your assessment of the shia materials and their valididty Nur

Viking I read Shia sources in Arabic and translated into English for you and posted it, instead of systematically confronting your own Shia sources you Google me with Shia materials on the net, I would have apporeciated if you tell me: We Shia do not believe Al Kaafi, or Kuleiny or any of the sources we only believe the iranian guy who does his best defence by attacking Ibn Uma. In order for you to get this material as defence, make sure that I have used it in my allegations, I used your own materials showing how your own scholars agree that Abdullah Ibn Saba established your religion. I am not debating with other forums, use your own words to either agree or disagree with me, not generalized net materials, but be objective. Your Shia writer says:" However, neither Mu'awiyah nor 'A'ishah took this route because Ibn Saba's story was invented by Sayf Ibn 'Umar Al-Tamimi who lived in the second Hijra century after their death" If He was an invented story, please tell me why do Shia Scholars I posted agree with this fabrication? Tell me if Kuleiny and others who confirmed the exisitence of Abdullah Ibn Saba and his role where all wrong, and to the point. Nur

Kheyr bro. you write: " but yet this is what you are doing and you impose on others in your arguments. " Answer Brother which Sheikh did I impose on who? all I said was that, although I pretty much subsribe and have more in common with the same Shiekhs like brother Salafi, I never talk ill on the others that I do not subscribe with, although I noted that each Alim including the ones you mentioned may have unintentional errors, likewise others also could have errors and as such we should stop demonising groups like the Tabligh, ikhwan and their Shiekhs, because they may have addressed areas in the deen that are more contemporary and addressing problems that are facing the community for which the Salafi movement has not provided answers for. To illustrate the importance of tolerance, I personally was guided through a brother who was a Salafi in beliefs and Ikhwani in his political outlook, later, I travelled with the Tabligh and I learned things and attitude of humility and patiuence and practical daily Sunnah, that no one has taught me before, for that reason, I feel that I was lucky not being put in a box with a single agenda, I thank Allah SWT that I have mixed with the Tabligh whose members are not as learned in the Deen as the Salafi, but they did offer me practical lessons in Sunnah and of humility that will be with me forever. Am I a Salafi, Tablighi, or Ikhwani, I would say, I have the best of them all, I am more rounded Muslim, Alhamdulillah I have read the works of Sheikh Ibn Taymia, Ibnul Qayyim, ( My Fovored writers of all), and Al Showkani and Al Sancaani,Sheilh Muhammad Ibnu Abdel Wahhab, Sheikh Utheimeen, Bin Baz, The late mufti addiyaar, Sheikh Mohammad Ibn Ibrahim Al Sheikh, I have also frequently read an Arabic periodical titled " Al Salifiyah" . Likewise I read many other contemporary writers whose thoughts are pretty much in line with these authors and unfortunately labelled " Ahlul Ahwaa" by some Salafi's and ostracized and their work never read or appreciated. I read books for contemporaries like Mowlana Mowdudi, Nadwi, Ihsan ilaahi, The Qutb brothers, Fathi Yakan, Saciid Xawwa and many more. But because I have responsibility for myself first, I read every work and weigh it against the Quraan and Sunnah, if there is a conflict, I dont take it, if it enhances Quran and Sunnah, I become sympathetic to the idea. Wallahu min waraa il qasd Nur

Mutakkalim bro. Jazaakallahu Khairan You made two assumptions: 1. Some Shia and Some Sunnah believe this Taxriif, Please show some proof about a Sunni reference that the Quraan was falsified, I have yet to come across such a claim. 2. You said this represent a mninority view in Shia, again, please tell me if the above references are those read and followed by the minority of the Shia schoilars, specially if the Kaafi is a minority opinion within Shia circles. Lastly, Like you said, the Quraan is its own proof, denying this fact is automatically Kufr, one either beleives the Quraan is protected or he does not, in which case he is not considered a Muslim, my question, is , do you consider anyone who believs the Quraan to be changes as a Muslim? Nur

Og Girl So, you first use the Azhar fatwa to Justify the Jaffary mad-hab, now you admit you dont trust them because they are Sunnis, how can I trust what a shia gril like you says then? specially when you go ahead and say that you trust the Shia hadeeth sources only, could you please show how the shia validate their hadeeths, just like i did above, because if the way a hadeeth is coillected is questioonable, it follows that the hadeeth can not be followed. Second, are you suggesting that you disagree with the majority Shia scholars who recognize the fact that Muta was made haraam by the prophet during the battle of Kheybar, but the Shia scholars say the proihibition was only for that day, inshallah I will post the sources, the funny thing sister is that the Shia Sayyids who teach this do not allow their daughters to be taken for Muta, why then do they allow for the aammah (public) ? and what about donkey meat, it was made haraam the same day, why do the Shia accept this one and not the muta'? Nur

Mutakallim bro. I honestly pray that you are all saved, and myslelf, at first, I have done my best to speak as objectively as possible, when five people take after me in a personal attack to poison the well from which I am trying to quench them from, the result are what you see, i agree it is not good, but it patience has its limits. Of all those who came to defend Shia, you are the only sane and honest voice so far, others wouldnt even come forward to admit they are Shia until you posted your rebuttal. By the way, throughout my writeups, It is my style to use subliminal messages to amplify and criticise issues, for the sole purpose of soliciting deeper and more informed answers. In recognition of your advice, from now on, I will not post anything that may be sarcastically offensive, and that is a promise. Nur

Sareedo, walaal The reality points that way and all of these statements are from the books of their scholars, some of who are Sayyids (decendats of Hussein), because of previty I just highlihghted, inshAllah I will post the sourcesa for the above when I get arount to it, pray for these brothers and sister, they may have bought into something they've not examined well, so I am digging here to get all facts out so we can all make informed decisions. Mutakallim Thank you for the good thoughts I have posted a well structured documentation of the origins and beliefs of the Shia, and their contempt for the Quraan, the least I expected was to see a factual counterpoints of my post, not a wishy washy brushing aside of issues at hand. Og Girl Walaal, are you suggesting that you can flip flop between Sunna and Shia like Hanafi and Shaafici because a document issues by Al Azhar? For your information Al Azhar issued many Fatwas that If I post them here you will never use them for reference, an example is the last Fatwa telling Muslims in France to obey their governments and not to wear the Hijaab. By the way, do you believe in the Muta marriage? if yes do you practice it? because i read that you can get a lot of rewards for doing it according to the Shia Fiqh. Fynemann and Jumatatu Personal attacks are not a good way to conduct a discussion, I thought that you had counterpoints of what I have posted, you've neither denied, nor conformed the validity of my sources and their implications, you must be preplexed running around to find an answer, if that is the case, take your time, but stop getting personal, address the issues I have reaised, not my personal drivers which Only Allah SWT knows, and mind you, the silent majority is following the discussion, dont assume them to be that naive. Nur

Kheyr bro. The topic and your questions have delved into another territory, which needs its own thread, the area is called TAQLIID. Is taqliid of a sheikh mandatory? imaam Sancaani says no, and i agree with him, Nur

Mutakkallim you write: "The Quran is complete in the full sense of the word. That the shia peoples hold that the Quran is incomplete is one of the many arrows of accusations the sunni laymen sling at the followers of the Ahlul Bayt." Answer: For the benefit of the doubt, I will not assume that you are dishonest, for what yo've u said, I say, you are deceived brother. Please read below. Most Mujtahids of the Shia are in agreement that the Quraan is CHANGED, Muxarraf. If You are a true Shia You know it, if not, Alhamdulillah. Now, The Great Shia Muxaddith Al Nuuri Al Tubrusi has written a large volume book titled: " Faslal Khitaab Fii Ithbaat Taxriif Kitaab Rabbil Arbaab" Translation : " The Criterion in the Proof of Falsification of the Book of the Lord of Lords" The Sheikh has collected more than 2000 rewaayah, narrations, making a case for the falsification of the Quraan, He collected the support of almost all of the reliable Shia scholars as a support for his claim, Please read the introduction of the Book Al Burhaan, Section 4, page 49 " Al Sayid Abul Hassan Al Caamili said, (And it is clear to me (The falsification of Quraan) after I have verified sources and followed tracks, to the point that this (principle) is the necessary (pillar) of the Shia Mad-hab. and it was (the falsification) the driver for taking away the Khilaafa (from Alal beit) by force. Please read Al Anwaar Al Nucmaaniyah Volume 2, Page 357 The Great Shia Scholar Nicmatullah Al Jazaa'iri said as a rebuttal for those like you who say it was not falsified: " Believing the authenticity and its integrity of the reveation contradicts with the infromation (from our sources) knowing that our (imams)diligently verified the truth of our infromation" Please Read Al Kaafi, Volume 1, Page 26 " No one has ever claimed that he compltely compiled the Quraan except a LIAR, and NO ONE has ever compiled it or memorized it like Ali Ibnu Abi Talib and the Imaams" So why are the Shia studiying the current Quraan: The answer: The great Scholar, Al Khoo'ee, on his death bed like all other scholars told his students to stick to the current Quraan, until the appearance of the Quraan of Fatima. Nur

Salafi Bro. Don't loose your cool, I have not made my mind up, I am genuinely seeking Knowledge because I am not yet dead, because we must seek knowledge from cradle to grave. The reason that I have asked you the above questions wasd to see if I was reading you wrong, but after your response, you have further strengthened what I was guessing, the fact that you are following a narrow interpretation of the Manhaj of teh Ahlul Sunnah wal Jamaach. For your knowledge, the collection of aqeedah and fiqh that we have were the result of a lot of dialogue an disagreements, when we talk about manhaj, we are talking the about the Sunnah itself, in the Arabic language, MANHAJ simply means the way of being a servant of Allah SWT, the way of deductive reasoning, the way of discussing an issue, all of thyem being the way of teh Rasul SAWS. Nown that I clarified the Manhaj, what remains is how to handle differences. Like I said, a difference of interpretation can grow out of contextual, semantics, objectives etc. we are in essence following the same manhaj, that of our Prophet SAWS, for example, about the Asmaa and Sifaat issue like the ISTIWAA , our Manhaj is that " Al Istiwaa macluum, wal Keif Majhuul, wa Su'aalu canhu Bidcah" This methodology was later generelized bu our scholars, and because of that cilmul kalaam became a bidcah, which is a waste and a sin. The reason I was alarmed about the issue of the scholars is the fact that Sufi use the same logic, " ASK THE SHEIKH", we the ahlul Sunnah wal jamaacah litsen to our Sheikh and respect them, however, we do not follow them blindly, because it was reported that Omar once asked the companions " what would you do if i get lost" the companions said " we will straighten you with our swords" Qualifying a set of Sheikhs to be the only sheikhs for Ahlul Sunnah is a very touchy issue, today, Islam is at cross roads, and many scholars are looking at our problems from a different perspective, however, every Alim has a Zallah ( mistake) which may not disqualify him to be taken as a scholar in issues he is in line with Ahlul Sunnah wal jamaacah. I am also sensing the same Hizbiyyah from your posts, which you neeed to outgrow if you really believe that we are all Muslims, many groups today are lost because they only liten to a single frequency and topic, Jihadis, only talk Jihaad, Tablighis only talk Jawla and bayaan, Taxriiris talk only Khilaafa, Ikhwan talk about Islamic State, Salafis talk only Ibaadah of Allah, and obediuence of Waliyul Amr. In my opinion, we need to look at this mosaic of Islamic streams like the remnant of broken body of a lizard, each part moving to a different direction, because the head is cut off, and unless we rise up to a higher intellectual level, we can not solve current problems facing Muslims with same mentality that created it in the first place. When I read your posts, I find it well substantiated, well supported, it looks like a book of law, but it lacks the ribbon the ties the pieces together for delivering a solution to a nation in disarray, while others are suggesting solutions, without referring back to a well substantiated sources of the Sunnah like you do, they also are in a spin, running on a threadmill, we need wisdom, because knowledge without wisdom is dangerous, and wisdom without knowledge is ineffective. " Wa man yutaa al xikmata fa qad uutiya kheyran katheeraa" Nur

Nomads the Party will not be complete without our Somali Shia readers, I want them in the party, so I am dedicating my time in the next few days to help them find the way, losing one soul is a painful thing, I am calling them to Dar Es Salaam, I wish they respond! Nur

Brother Salafi May Allah bless you, pleas pray for me, that Allah SWT saves me from my own evil, and my bad deeds, because guided is he who Allah guides, without Allah's guidance I will sure be lost soul, but because I love Allah, SWT, I am struggling in his cause, using my limited skills and knowledge to call others to his way. Nur

Next Attractions! The Shia fabricated Folk Stories in thier most respected books: Afeer, the Donkey Of the Prophet Speaks Wisdom! Their Slander against the Prophet SAWS that he saw Zeinab naked taking bath, and fell in love with her. A Kinky threesome sleep party, Ali sleeps in the same mattress, covered by the same blanket with the Prophet SAWS and Aisha, The prophet gets up for nightly prayer, Ali does not, guess who remains in bed together? Icaaratul Faraj, " Vagina Lending" a concept ,according to some Shia scholars, a man who travels allows his friend to have sex with his wife in his absence, practiced by some in Iraq and Iran. Hassan, the grandson of the Prophet is called " Mudhillul Muslimiin" He who disgraced Muslims. The Convenience secret marriage, Mutcah and its rewards, so many rewards for having sex with as many women as possible! No limit of how many women one can have for Mutah, nor time limit! And one other thing, No witnesses needed, A Jaahili Arabian cincept made Haraam by the Prophet in teh Battle of Kheibar was reinstated by the very people defeated in that battle! Mut'cah marriage with minors without penetration is OK by late Imam Khomeini, Shia source available! The anal sex with a wife is permitted by some Shia scholars, they even back it up with Quraan. The Imaams are sacred, they know the Ghaib, they have powers beyond our imagination, they see angels, just like prophets. Will discuss the Rajcah principles The Quraan of Fatima, and the many other secret Revelations like other secret revelations no one sees that will appear when the Imamul Muntadhar appears. " All people are "awlaad Zinaa", illigitimate birth, except our Shia", see Rawdah, V8, P135, Al Kuleiny. And more.......... These and more prove one thing, someone was out to get the Prophet and His Aalal Beit, and used ignorant people to change the course of the religion. e-Nuri Educational Services Rescuing A Lost Folk Follow me to Paradise Campaign!

My Shia Readers Thanks for your patience, when I posted this thread I had no idea how many Shia readers read my posts,because of the overwhelming responses from Somali Shias, now I feel it is a good time to post my long waited proofs of the Shia Relion and their roots. Bismillah, wa bihi astaciin, Rabbi Ishrax lii sadrii wa yassir lii amrii, wax lul cuqdatan min lisaanii, yafqahii qowlii. Allahumma ahdinaa wahdi binaa kathiiraa. Brothers and Sisters, the objective in this discourse is not to speak maliciously about the Shia Religion, nor its scholars, simply put it is about bringing their beliefs to the front burner so we can evaluate if indeed we have the same religion or different religions. First the Origin of the Shia Religion. The first pesron who ever suggested the Divinity of Ali and the Aalal beit was Abdullah ibn Sabaa, A Jewish man of an Ethipian Mother. The Shia are quick to deny the existence of this personality let alone what he did to divide the Muslims, so let us substantiate this claim from their trusted books for undeniable proof. I will post the Shia bibliography source first, then the pasage. 1. Macrifat Akhbaar Al Rajaal, ( Biographies of (Shia) Men, Al Kashee, Pages 70-71 It was reported by Abi Abdallah the he said " May Allah curse Abdallah Ibn Sabaa, He claimed Divinity for Ali, Amir ul Mumineen, aleyhi Salaam, Wallahi, teh Amirulmumineen Ali was an obedient servant of Allah SWT" 2. Tanqiiix al Maqaal fi Cilmil Rijaal, Volume 2, pages 183, 184 Al Maamqaani said, Abdallah Ibn Sabaa was the one who became Kaafir by Exaggerated ( claiming the divinity of Aaalal beit) 3. Firaq Al Shia, Pages 32 - 44 Al Nowbakhti said " Sabaeyyah ( Followers of Abdullah Ibn Sabaa) where the first to say the Imaamah of Ali, and that it is a Fard from Allah, azza wa jall, they are the friends of Abdullah ibn Sabaa, he was the first to attack Abu Bakar, Omar and Othman, and the Companions, and diswoned from following and obeying them. And He ( Abdullah Ibn Saba) said that " Ali Aleyhi Salaam ordered him" When Ali Heard this news he asked him about his beliefs and (abdullah ibn Saba) confirmed it, then Ali ordered his execution, then the people shouted, O Amirul Muminiin, are you going to kill a man who advocates poeple to love you and the aalal Beit? and to your loyalty and the enemity of your adversaries? It was also reported from some scholars that that Abdullah Ibn Saba was a Jew, who converted to Islam, he gave his allegiance to Ali. before hisconversion, While he was a Jew, He used to say the same thing ( divinity) about Yusha son of Nuun after Moses Aleyhi Salaam, So after he became a Muslim he claimed (divinity) of Ali ibn Abi Talib again, He was the first who suggested the Imamah of Ali, Aleyhi Salaam, and Called for Baraa'ah of his enenmies, and this is why those who oppose Shia say that Shiism origin is Judaism" 4. Al Maqaalaat Wal Firaq, Page 20 Saad Al ash'cari Al Qumi said, " The Saba ehyyah, ( School of Abdullah ibn Saba) friends of Abdullah ibn Saba, whose name was Abdallah ibn Wahab Al Raasibi Al Hamadaani, who was aided by Abdallah Ibn Kharsi, and Ibn Aswad, his best friends, He was the first to openly slander Abu Bakar, Omar and Othman and the companions and made Baraa'ah ( decalre enemity)" For previty the following Shia sources and many more confirm Abdullah Ibn Saba as the origin of the Shia; 5. Aslul Shia wa Usuulihaa, Sayyid Mohammad Husseyn Aal Kaashif Ghataa, Pages 40 - 42, amazingly this guy had to pull the TUQAYA trick to deny the existence of Abdullah iBn Saba, saying that it was a lie made by the Amawi and Abbasi dynasties, when he himself records it in His own book. 6. Nahjul Balaagha, V5, P5 7. Al Anwar Al Nomania, Volume 2, Page 234 Conclusion: a. Proof that Abdullah Ibn Saba existed b. He was a Jew hwo converted to islam c. He was the first to theorize the Sanctity, Devinity, Infallibility and the worship of Aalal Beit, the family of the prophet SAWS, beginning with Ali all the way to the missing imaam who will come out of the sirdaab and take revenge on Sunnis. d. Abdullah Ibn Saba was the first to declare enemity of Abu Bakar( Aisha's father), Omar ( Who Married Ali's daughter) and Uthman Dhul Nurein,( who married two daughters of the prophet SAWS), The Jews Said that They supported Moses, Christians said that the Desciples supported Jesus, Shia's said that Mohammad was betrayed by all of his companions including those who married his daughters and who he married theirs. So, Abdullah Ibn Saba just like Saint Paul datrted a new religion for them. Next: The Shia as described by Ali , Hassan , Hussein and Al Baaqir, May Allah be pleased with all of them. amin. 1. Al Kaafi/ Al Rowdha, Volume 8 page 338 " If I classify my shia I would find them nothing but (Waasifah)(meaning close to traitor, useless), and if I test them (their faith), I wouldn't find them but apostates (murtaddeen), and if filter them finely, for substance, I wouldn't even find from every thousand a single (good one) 2. Nahjul Balaagha, page 142 (warning, under 18 should not read the following statement supposedly said by Ali Radiyallahu canhu addressing his Shia followers army who left him for the birds and deserted him unprotected when he counted on their support against the enemy; " ( You are)Deaf, who hear, and Dumb, who speak, and blind who who see, no integrity nor bravery when you meet the enemy, nor reliable brothers when hardships befall, you have spread away from me( running to all directions in fear , leaving Ali all alone behind enemey line) similar to the spreading of the vagina of a woman" Also read, Nahjul Balaagha, pages 70-71 3. Al Irshad lil Mufeed, page241 Imaam Hussein's Prayer ( Habaar) against his Shia: " O Allah, if you give them a respite, divide them to many groups, and many sects, and never make rulers satified with them, because they called us called us to help us, but ( they tricked us) they transgressed againsed us and killed us" Also read Al Ixtijaaj, Volume 2 page 10, Volume 2, page 24, 29. Acyaan al Shia, Part one, page 34. 4. Rijaal Al Kashi,( Biographies of Al Kashi), Al Baqir Aleyhi Salaam said, " if all people where our Shia, 3/4 of them would have been suspicious about us, and the remaining 1/4, Stu-pid" Conclusion: 1. The Al Beit where annoyed by their followers, and did not trust them.( Who else can trust them when they instutionalize Tuqya as a principle to avoid confrontation until they are able to spread their true beliefs) 2. How the people of Kufah deceived the Al al beit into a bloody confrontation only to leave them to be slaughtered by the lost group. 3. Their origins were deception, evil, and Fitnah. Nur 2004 e-Nuri Aqeedah Vigilante If You Don't Stand For Anything, You'd Fall Everything!

Fyneman The Chinese have a saying : " When two men argue, the first one who gets mad or quits is wrong" I Was patient with you eventhough you changed roles, played a neutral role, then finally got mad when you can not produce any substantial evidence to refute that you Shia followers trully accept the Quraan to be complete>. Do you deny that the Shia believe that ONLY THE IMAMS know the Quraan? Do you deny that Shia believe that Sunnis removed the verses of Imaamah and all reference to Imaam concept from Quraan? Do you deny that Shia believe the Concept of Rajcah, which says that when the Mahdi comes, all the dead Shia will come back alive to get revenge from Sunnis who killed them? Do you deny that Concept of Tuqya is used against Sunnis to mislead them about the true concepts of the Shia? Do you deny that Shia believe that the Imaams are infallible, Macsuum, what they say is 100% correct and anyone who does not follow them to be a Kuffar? Brother, Come back to Sunnah Way. Nur

Salafi bro. I was never a shia, and i never said so, you need to become a critical reader, I was just an ignorant Muslim sympathizer with Shia friends in College, prior to that, I knew nothing of the reality of the Shia until I lived with a shia student and read his books and prayed with Him. But, with the grace of Allah, It was a valuable experience, so valuable, I am here helping others stay on the Siratul mustaqeem, the Sunnah of Prophet SAWS. By the way, if you think being a former Shia is bad, how about the Companions who were former kufaar? are you going to look down upon them too? Umar Ibnul Khattab said, " He who does not know jaahiliyya does not know islam" With all due respect, brother you need patience, being a trigger happy is not a good trait for someone who wants to become an advocate for Islam, a daacee for Islam. Tolerance and understanding can earn you respect of others so they can take your advice, but not aggression and ill thought. The more I read your responses the more i wish that you refrain answering when you have limited knowledge of subject matter. Nur

Salafi Bro Are you suggesting that scholars are infallible? If you agree that they can go wrong, what is the assurances that we need to have when we listen to a scholar to stay on the right course? Isn't the word Manhaj the same as the word Sunnah in plain Arabic Language? Why do you fail to understand the above classification of drivers for difference, is it too complex for you to understand/ What are the requirements according to Quraan and Sunnah for us to define a pesron to be a scholar? What is the definition of Bidca according to the sharia? An ignorant servant of Allah seeking Knowledge, please enlighten me and the viewers. Nur

Nomads Finally a credible debate partner was found, Mutakallim, formerly Philosopher King, wrote the following response to me on the original thread, and suggested that he will substantiate from Quraan our common source using his own pick of the Sunni Tafaasiir, sidelining the oldest Tafseer ever written, Al Tabari. But before we even go to the Tafsseer, it may be more economical to examine if indeed the Shia beliieve the Quraan itself is COMPLETE, we sunnah believe Quraan is COMPLETE, let us debate this issue as an openner, and if we agree, we can proceed to the contents in the Quraan. Here is what Mutakkallim wrote: Nur:- If you really want to learn and discuss the shia ideology , then I am willing to do so. We shias, differ from the the sunnis in ways more than one. There are cardinal discrepancies between the shia and sunni in matters pertaining to "'aqaid", the islamic doctrines. All other differences between us and the sunnis insofar as the differences are of a juristic nature, is, inconsequential. Let us debate the "caqaaid" as it is the "form" of our religion; everything else is but a mere derivation thereof (shariica, akhlaaq, fiqh etc.). If you are receptive to the discussion, I will demand of you "amreeyn", two things: 1) I will use proofs from your books to explicate the legitimacy of our beliefs. I will refer to the eminent sunni scholars (mufassiriin) and their exegis (zamakhsahri, siyuudi, etc.); I will not refer to the second-rate tafasiir written by your scholars (ibn kathiir, dabari, qutb, etc.). I will not communicate to you like a commoner, I will assume you are intimately familiar with all your concepts. If that is not the case, then I do not wish to "teach" anything. This is a challenge and thus will it remain. 2)The relgious proofs I will advance will be "rational" and of course "narrational". I shall start the discussion of the rationality of our beliefs. May He shower His blessings on His prophet and his famliy, for they are the Ark of Salvation in a stormy sea of hypocrisy. With Salaams PK My answer: Brother Mutakallim I have all along felt you an others on this forum, for your information, I am former sympathizer of the Shia so much so that I use to pray with a stone from Karbala, I admired the Shia on many issues, they do have good qualities, and as you said major aqeedah differences with the Sunnah, you can consider what is coming as a discussion of two shia students, my objective is for us to come to a common ground: " THAT WE COME TOGETHER TO A COMMON WORD BETWEEN US, THAT WE , WORSHIP NONE BUT ALLAH, AND FURTHER, THAT SOME OF US DO NOT WORSHIP OTHERS " If we succeed on that common goal, walls between us inshAllah will come down. That is the Objective of this discussion, please let us show OBJECTIVITY toward that statement all the way through, you and all Shia have my utmots respect and I pray Allah SWT show us the right path we seek 17 times a day. Debate # 1 Shia Believe Quraan Is NOT COMPLETE. Your response Brother MUTAKALLIM Nur