^ Nur, u never cease to amaze me, ur crusade to crucify women, blaming them for everything is astonishing. Phrases like, "if only women covered up, men would be so much better", make me nauseaus. Which can only mean that men are weak creatures and us, the evil women taunt them with our bodies, and their just too dumb to say no to temptation. Thxs for clearing up the male psyche. Anything u talk about, women are the cause, and men are never at fault. I'm so glad ur leading them to the path of paradise by telling them that as long as women cover up, heaven shall be theirs. Just a suggestion, wouldn't topics that deal with men taking responsibility for their own sins, ie-lowering their gazes, as some have already confessed not to be doing, how about teaching them how to lower their gaze in the face of temptation rather than indiscriminately seeing it from one view and pointing the finger at the woman for the source of their downfall. "If you are a woman, by clicking on this page, it raises questions about what you say about men, that men dont listen, instead, you are a clear proof that women dont listen either" We listen, we just dont like to nod dumbly but prefer to insert our own point of view since the topic has something to do with us. p.s.-didn't appreciate the "bird" watching comment. Thxs for reducing us to pigeons.

Funny how the men seem to blame their straying on the women, words like "keep him occupied, make urself hot for him, make sure he doesn't need another" are making me ill. Men, ur not 3 yr olds who need diversion from getting into trouble or leaving ur playpen. Did anyone ever think of the woman? Why doesn't he make himself look better? Keep her occupied, cause damnit, we're human too, and if we see Brad pitt, ur damn right we're leaving ur sorry self and blaming u for it all the while. "Its' his fault, his macawis wasn't glittering, his beard just didn't do it for me, after the kids, he let himself go, hence the santa belly". 2 can play this game. What some of u seem to overlook or purposely don't get, is that we understand polygamy is allowed in Islam, But so is our right to choose to stay in that marriage or agree to become a co-pilot. Choice! -its our right to choose, and no one can decide for the wife, including the husband. Xoogsade, u said, its a futile attempt to deny the husband a 2nd wife, which insinuates that there is no choice and she must learn to accept it. Doesn't work that way, and I wish some ppl here would stop re-writing/reforming Islam to conform to their views. It goes without saying that most somali men have a heck of a time providing for one wife and 10 kids, therefore stick to making one happy rather than tightening a noose around ur neck and taking on a very serious responsibility of other wives and risking urself in the hereafter. Polygamy may be allowed, but not explicitly encouraged. Obviously, as Rahima said, many think with their lower plumbing when making such a decision rather than a sincere need to help out a widow. If we're really honest with ourselves, how many really remarry women with kids, its definetly younger women, so that throws away the argument that some do it for sincere reasons. Having a new plaything in bed every other night doesn't qualify as such.

I never give up, so im counting on hearing ur side. Its' always good to question the status quo and not just lie down and accept what ppl tell u. p.s.-i like having the last word

Is it? because some perceive it to be "unislamic?" what makes it so? I've already countered the clothes issue, pray tell, what else?

Simply, I did darling, perhaps u can enlighten the (s)hercules, im sure my brawn isn't mighter than my brain 1-u said it just "bothers" them- because 2-u went on to say, the "improper dress code" and the butt in the air may bother them, I asked why ? didnt get a response. Which can only mean, a woman "improperly dressed with all her assets hanging out will leave herself to be prey to those that may assess women as only sexual objects. U've supported my argument by just pointing out her physical.

ur right atheer, we're above u, since we're not conflicted in thinking with 2 heads, and often choosing the wrong one.

They are both highly controlling and suspicious of women in general. Conservative muslims also use their culture most often than islam, which colors their reason, hence culture dictates women needs to be oppressed and doesn't possess the mental capacity to distinguish right from wrong. Thats where men come in, our very own heros who can do all for us. Aren't we just lucky? :rolleyes:

Its a man's world, and we're just wrecking it with our "radical" ideas. Gotta love it :cool: I love all the double standards, they make my day

Conservatives (fundamental christians mostly) operate with the view that all women are born sinners, therefore anything she does that may stop her from getting pregnant would naturally be assumed as abortion. Its an "emergency" contraceptive because its the last resort, as there was no condom used or pills taken. Its the last sure way to stop the sperm from fertilizing the egg, and if there is that option available, why deny them that right?

Why should it bother them to begin with? U've just contradicted urself, it becomes "sexually provoking" when just as u explained u noticed her legs and her **** in the air. but im sure u meant they just wanna keep us modest and not "provoke" others, since all our good brothers have their gazes lowered. Got it :rolleyes: I've used my example to highlight other views, may not necessarily be urs, but when i was told i couldn't ride, it was insinuated that riding bikes may lead to whoredom. Also, women can wear pants, (can be loose) with a long top, doesn't mean that her shirt would be riding her mid section and her booty would be on display. There are plenty of ways to cover urself, the issue is, no one should be able to choose for another, and one sex definetly shouldn't choose for another.

I agree with seeker, Plan B isn't a pill to abort, merely another form of contraceptive, just like the shot, condom, birth control, etc. It just stops the egg from having a fling with the sperm, hence dancing to their own tune to produce their indiscretion.

^^ So women shouldn't ride because it might bother guys? bwahahahahaha! Its funny how a woman on a bike can intimidate a farax into thinking, first a bike, next she'll want a motorcycle, the nerve! Nothing unislamic about it, its all a cultural taboo that continues to inhibit women anyway they can. :mad: ex. I used to ride as a child, but when i asked to ride around 12 or so, I was told by a relative, "ladies do not open their legs" :eek: ... So u see, its linked with the idea that if u open ur legs for a bike, naturally, next it will be for a geel-jire. i see the wisdom in that :rolleyes: Im so proud of our culture that displays such enormous faith and trust in us.

Add me to the pro-men's forum. This isn't the first time some of us have requested a men forum, but maybe they might listen when its posted by others with better connections. Reasons for a men's forum: 1-now us women can go there and give them a taste of their own medicine. ie- having every other topic consist of what faarax is doing wrong and how to improve him. 2-let them have a place when they can talk about "manly" issues, such as male pattern baldness, viagra (pros/cons), polygamy and why they love it, excercise and its benefits towards their calves, to name a few. 3-or just maybe, some of them can address real issues facing men today- dead beat dads, chronic anti-job syndrome, lost boyz aka wanna be gangstas:provide solutions on how to better themselves and each other. Its nauseating the threads in the women's section, most consisting of faarax's displeasure towards xalimos', so its about time to give back to the community and discuss our other glorious gender.

When men are raped Men who are raped comprise 5-10% of all reported cases, but studies have shown that 90-95% of male survivors do no report sexual assaults. Male rape survivors experience a similiar range and intensity of trauma as female survivors. However, there are some important differences in how men deal with surviving a sexual assault: Male survivors tend to question their sexual orientation. A wide range of physiological responses are normal, including panic, arousal, fear or pain. None of these responses mean that a male rape survivor is or is not gay because of his expeiences. Many men feel intensified homophobia after an assault, believing that rape and sex are related. Rape is an act of violence and control, not of sexual gratification. Most men are never taught to live with the fear of their own vulnerability. For this reason, they may experience a heightened degree of shock, surprise or disbelief. Some men will feel less masculine after being rape. There is tremendous social pressure for men to be "manly" and since rape is believed to be something that only happens to women, or is something that happens to people who are weak, it is normal for male survivors to interpret their experiences in this way. Stigma around male rape is often so severe that a survivor is likely to deal with his experience in total isolation. http://multiculturalcenter.osu.edu/repp/page.asp?ID=83 So if appearance and location/alcohol have something to do with women being raped, how can we explain why men are raped as well? Would we use the same excuses, or can we finally put aside the dress debate and really talk about the WHY. Have the men also done something to provoke rape? should they also not walk alone at night? wear burkas? Again, i'll say it t'ill im blue in the face, its an issue of control and no amount of planning can stop a would be predator. If we don't deal with their sickness, many more men/women and children will have to deal with this gross violation and we'll still be debating on what the victim was wearing.

Gacalo, , that reminds me of this time that I was also on the train one morning and this dude comes to sit next to me. It wasn't crowded and there were plenty of seats so already I was weary as to why he would choose to plaster himself next to me. As i was lost in my own lil' world, out of nowhere, he sticks his face in the crook of my neck and inhales deeply. Imagine my shock and disgust, i immediately cry out, and he says "nice perfume, what it is?". At that point, i was too shocked to do anything but stare dumbly, until he repeated, and in a meek voice, so unlike X, i proceed to tell him, hoping that would be the end. I get up to get off at the next stop and he shoves a paper at me, and I politely said no thanks. Needless to say, he got pissed off and yelled, "take it! and call me". Mighty X was so terrified, i quickly grab it and run like the devil is after me. I choose my battles wisely (how to deal with a loser) and any over 6 feet and tree branches for arms, i play dead and hope they move on to other prey. Sexual harrassment i tell ya! :mad:

Viking, exactly, precautions MAY keep them safe for the time being,(not a 100% guarantee) but as u said it urself, they do not reform the mind of a rapist. So what now? Again, answer my question, what makes them rape when factors such as dress or alcohol are removed? let's move on to that question pls instead of reiterating the same views.

Liban, u just proved my point...they are sick individuals who would rape a dog if they could, hence the debate that dress has anything to do with it goes out the window! Child, woman, cockroach, it doesn't matter WHO but what matters is why? Viking, again u didn't answer my q, lets remove alcohol and dress, IN A MUSLIM COUNTRY WHAT WOULD BE THE REASON MEN WOULD RAPE? U see, its the same reason universally, b/c to say that in the west its about dress, and in the east, they are sick, is to split hairs...like castro said, rape is rape anywhere and doesn't need a different definition depending on what society you are in. Dominance, power, control. As far as the poll u quoted, just b/c those ppl believe a woman shares the blame doesn't mean its right! Polls have also been done stating that islam is an evil religion, should we believe that just b/c some ppl hold those facts to be true to them? It's an opinion, take it with a grain of salt. In terms of precautions, i agree, never a good idea to drink to oblivion, always be aware of ur surroundings, but at the end of the day, u seem to boil rapes down to those occuring only in those circumstances when they really are a minute part, what about the majority that happen in bright daylight? those that occur within family members(wouldn't believe how many but no one knows the true facts b/c they are unreported and the stigma always is on the woman).

Viking, yet again you missed the issue, which is "why is the man raping in the first place?WHAT ARE THE REASONS?" is it the clothes? NO!, its because HE CAN! Calypso said it and so have I, majority of the ppl who answered in favor of partly blaming the woman have missed that RAPE IS A CONTROL ISSUE and had nothing to do with the victim whatsoever. You keep coming back to women dressing in an inviting manner, but just like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, isn't also what's sexy/inviting in the eye of the beholder too? Many gurls, with or w/o hijab, with no body parts on display, still get harrassed daily by men, so what brought that on? ITS BECAUSE THEY CAN! By reducing a crime to what the victim was wearing/doing, is not only blaming her entirely, (spare me the b.s. of partly for political correctness sake), but letting the offender off the hook. Many young kids (boys/girls) get molested/raped everyday,will you explain to ur child that the nighty she was wearing was alluring to daddy? Again, its about control and taking advantage of the vulnerable, not lil' xalimos pjs. To some, an ankle is sexy, eyes are sexy, voice is sexy, SHOULD I BE CONDEMNED AND LOCKED UP IN MY HOME BECAUSE SOME MAN MIGHT FIND SOMETHING OF ME SEXY AND TOMORROW I SHALL BE BLAMED IF HE CHOOSES TO VIOLATE ME? :mad: I get that dressing modestly MAY protect SOME from unwanted attention WHAT ABOUT THE NUMEROUS TIMES A WOMAN GETS RAPED EVEN THOSE THAT ARE HIJABIS? Let's get off the drunk "gaalo", and let's focus on us (muslims)-why does it happen then? Again, its all about CONTROL. I feel like a broken record and we may never agree, but many young gurls/women's wellbeing depend on us getting the issue of why rapes occur, and not how we can dress better, because like it or not, if someone wants to rape, he will, regardless if she's wearing a bikini, or a burka. Education is the key, sooner we get that, the better off we as a society will be.

The issue here isn't someone's dress/location/what they had to drink,etc. Let's narrow the discussion to rapes in so called muslim countries, and let's take out alcohol. Rape is as prevalent in those places as it is in so called "gaalo" countries, so what excuse can we use now? The woman's hijab had too much glitter on it? Also for those who wear modest clothing and no hijab, does that mean they ask for it? and should they be partly to blame for not covering their hair but covering their body? Like Castro/raxma were stating, no women ever looks to be raped or asks for it, i don't care if she's walking around butt naked, the main issue is the man's need to assert control and dominance over the female and the best way to show who's the boss is to overpower her with their brute strength and take away what dignity the woman had by partaking of her charms w/o her consent. It's highly dangerous/irresponsible to lay the blame, even a 10th of it on the female because that means, the animal/perpetrator, is that much less off the hook for his transgression. Rape is psychological warfare and for some to reduce it to inconsequentional stuff such as dress, takes the focus off the offender and places the guilt squarely on the victim, ie women-the convenient scapegoats since the dawn of time. Rest assured, that offender will rape again, whether the victim is 14 or 84. (ex, read in the paper recently that an 84 yr old woman was raped, so were her false teeth and flashy cane to blame?) Some may say its rare, but it isn't, what all those have in common, from 12-elderly, is that all the victims were perceived weak/vulnerable, therefore the rapist feels like they can take advantage at those who may not be able to fight back. Viking-I see where you are going with the hijab and how that can act as a deterrent, but sadly that's not always the case, so what now? How will u console those women who were fully dressed, what will u tell them caused the rape? U see, its never the victim's fault, its always the rapists, the sooner we get that, the sooner we may help to prevent those men from raping in the future by coming up with feasable solutions and dealing with their control issues rather than pointing the finger at the woman. Putting the blame on the woman victimizes her all over again, not only is she raped by the offender, but by the justice system/society as well. And we wonder why most rape cases aren't reported. :rolleyes:

I must agree with Castro and i think he meant that we somalis shouldn't be surprised that we're just like any other human race, flawed-with criminals running rampant in our society. For them to committ those murders and for it to shock you that it's at all possible sends the naive message that we somalis are above reproach and that our sense of morality and goodness is beyond all other people. Let's acknowledge that and now let's come up with solutions as to how to counter those deviants and it wouldn't be a bad idea to start with our own backyard(warlords having the time of their life in somalia). Those with the mentalily that a life can be easily taken and unworthy will always have that mindset regardless of where they are from. The sad thing in this is that someone doing their duty was murdered and that now, we somalis, who have gone thru so much bad publicity, have one more thing to deal with. Those alleged perpetrators have not only shamed their families and themselves, but their society as a whole.

Excellent points Layzie. Nur, thank you so much for that back handed apology, I have seen the light now. Excellent diatribe of Good Vs Evil and we can all guess what category those that had the gall to speak against ur falsehoods belong to. In any case, I'd have prefered a "let's agree to disagree" rather than a condescending sermon, playing the victim, if you couldn't summon or even try to see things from our side. I almost expected a picture of jesus when he was crucified 'cause thats' exactly the image u portrayed of urself. To sum up your view/motto, bad gurls go everywhere, good gurls go under the knife. Thank you for ur great work in championing women's causes everywhere, with friends like you, who needs enemies? :rolleyes:

rudy, we're on the same page then...u seemed to have missed nur's "abortion vs FGM" debate...check that b4 u defend someone who believes in FGM and yes he would do it to his daughter since he thinks all women need it to curb their sexual desires.

Rudy, no one is exempting the ladies from their part in FGM, the issue here is Nur's support for the barbaric practice, using religion as his supporting argument. Don't jump on the band wagon if you have trouble discerning what the real issue is. :rolleyes:

^^ Thats what im talking about....Fear...smells wonderful :cool: ur wlc to come to dixon anytime, just careful not to be confused with cockroaches, they are as plentiful as faraxs

I wonder, if we raging feminists opened a thread calling on all testies to be cut off in the event of preventing those adorned with the family jewels from impregnating their g/f's and in another thread discussing how we really need those same jewels in order to procreate and advance life on earth, will we too be praised for such a touching topic and be easily forgiven our castrating past so easily? Double standard anyone? Just a thought