Originally posted by NGONGE: ^^ We did. But ten videos later, he still didn't get his hands dirty and preferred instead to lob these links at us from a safe distance. When you put a topic in a discussion forum, be prepared to discuss them. If the brother can't understand this simple concept what is the point of expecting him to figure out the impossible (for his level) and complicated problems of Somali society? These endless lectures are tedious and lack any depth. NG, This dude is a bit of a fraud. If you go back and take a look at any response he's put up (apart from the video links) he's either backtracking or engaging in verbal jabs with no relevance to his topic. It takes wit and quick thinking to support your opinions in a live forum...no writing a script, looking it over and not having to worry about answering questions. And now we have 'Self-hating somalis'. Strangely enough in all the videos he never uses 'Us' or 'We' its always third party references to Somalis 'They' and 'Them'. sounds to me like Marc is pretty disconnected from the people he's preaching about.

Ok how about this one CBS news Try signing up for This website and tell me why 70% of the members are WOMEN.

Looks like women are worse then men. Scandalous

Originally posted by Laba_Xiniinyood: Damage caused by Qat - • disintegrated families • high divorce rates • wives absconding from their husbands because of qat • children lacking supportive parents • children lacking ambitious role models • children with low aspiration levels Are you INSANE? Those social issue are across the board in ANY culture. Black, white, Native. Broken homes are result of some deeper economic factors. If you think your simplistic solution will fix that, you have a surprise coming. Why don't you shackle these guys to their homes so their children can have a better life. Benefits the community will get • consciousness/ Damiir • happier mothers • better looked after families • father playing a father’s role in the household • better attainment levels of children if fathers support them • a cohesive and well-glued society The man is at the helm of the household – he steers the boat through the rapid streams and blustery storms – if he is now around to do his job, sometimes it is too difficult for a mother of 8 to manage on her own. And the culprit is mostly – if not always – Qat. [/QB] You're right, this argument is OVER. if you really and truly believe men that have chosen to abandon their responsibility to self, family and society are being held hostage by their addiction and taking it away will fix it, then you have a long way to go. Hope you trail and error method of social reform works out.

9 pages later I'll go back to my initial statements. 1) There is no solid detailed proof of any damage caused by khat 2) Those proposing the ban can not explain or show in any detail what benefits the community will get from the ban.

^^ Like it or not, It's NOT.

Hold on, lemme get an Advil

LOL I thought the Dads were missing because Mom could get a few extra dollars from the welfare check. That logic is a little twisted. Is dad away from home becuase of the jaad or is he on jaad so that he doesn't have to go home? There's seems to be a very high need for forcing change. A lot of attempts to beat people into submission.

Somalis are already on alcohol, saaxib, and its not the oldies..its the next generation. How is the ban a good thing? you ignored the whole bottom part of my post above. For the proponents of the khat ban, what is your desired goal. What is it that you expect to see when Khat is gone from scene? How will this positively change the lives of the everyday Somali on the street?

Originally posted by LayZieGirl: First off, I don't recall going head to head with you in a discussion. Except that thread about the ethiopian man who was trying to find out the whereabouts of his live-in somali girlfriend, and as I recall, we have exchanged few jabs you and I, but other than that, we have not come across anything that would classify as "constantly missing your points" as you put it.(you would have to make a point inorder for me to miss it, right?) My bad..Mistook you for Serenity (niap ni eht ssa) Originally posted by LayZieGirl: As for the question of who makes a decision about rotten folks, anyone who feels strongly about the future of our nation, as it depends on its people. The hopefuls, the believers. Aren't you assuming we all have the same hopes and beliefs and definition of success? Originally posted by LayZieGirl: What I do not agree with anyone, young or old, blind or deaf, indha yar or indian, somali or kenyati(farah brown comes to mind), baptist or jew is that we shouldn't silence free speech. As individuals, we have the right to express our views, our frustration anytime we please. As somalis, its our obligation to come forward and speak about the issues that face us, and then accept it for what it is. Only then can we truly recover. I truly believe that when I rant about issues that are dear to me, I am actually speaking on behalf of atleast one other person if not more. That believe means much more to me than anything you have to say, Underdog. I'm all for Freedom of speech and freedom of expression. no argument from me on that one. apologies if your felt I was trying to infringe on your right to rant. And as for the rest of your post, I still think we can't just highlight all the negative things... Chavs and marfishes and all. All on the one side of the Somali coin. I'm saying we should be able to talk about the successes, the young people working hard to make a difference. (Not Marc, he seems too judgmental and has apparently never seen anything good in our community). The young Somalis will replicate what they see and hear. And with the positive success stories hidden away, all they have to listen to and see is the riff raff that's oh so loud and ever-present. So don't feel offended when I ask you what you bring to table, see it a challenge to give the youth options for forward progress.

Maybe what we need is regulation (which I will fully support) But a ban on Khat is just plain ridiculous.Especially considering all the other readily available drugs that Somalis are consuming. This maybe my personal view, but I would much rather see Somali youth with a mouth full of khat than stumbling around drunk. Every society on the planet has a substance used as a social stimulant so whether you're talking about Opium usage in Asia, Cocaine in South America and even socially acceptable drugs like Marijuana and alcohol - I think we are way better off in terms of Health and social problems cause by khat. Thats not to say there isn't a negative aspect to it, there is. However in comparison to everything else out there, I'll choose Khat. A ban on khat = raising the cost of chewing khat (monetarily and criminally) = a likely reduction in frequency of chewing and the onset of new chewers = a better outcome for the Somali community Better outcome how? For the proponents of the khat ban, what is your desired goal. What is it that you expect to see when Khat is gone from scene? How will this positively change the lives of the everyday Somali on the street?

Originally posted by Khalaf: Who decides if your choices are harmful? Well the majority does. (speaking from a non-religious prespective) So with this theory, and the BBC stat about 80% or 90% chewers, hasn't the majority indeed decided? Democracy in action. Originally posted by Khalaf: ps: as for teens drinking/and smoking weed, that is an entirly different topic. the khat industry is an international business, and would/should concern governments/law ect. As to alchohol consumption well no action needed there as that is a regulated product. Alcohol and weed is international too. Widely available and 100% proven to be more dangerous than khat. But its sounds like both of you would approve of young Somali adults engaging in regulated drinking than unregulated chewing.

Originally posted by NGONGE: Do you believe you have the RIGHT to make the WRONG choices? Do you think someone else should decide what's right and what's wrong for you? (looks like we're going down a different and more interesting path now). Indeed. Lets see the Gestapo come out of the shadows.

2 stone, If he chooses to advocate for the ban of Khat, Aren't you violating his free will to do so by standing in his way? ninka asagaa ii soo radsaday. Tryin' to have me arrested on my day off. He should take up a hobby like stamp-collecting or something aristocratic like polo.

CG & Serenity, ya'll can can have this conversation in private....heard of MSN? maybe facebook?

Forget the old skool Khat chewers for a moment...they're old enough to know better. What about our Somali youth double-fisting the Rum and Vodka at every night-club in the western hemisphere? How about a nice video rant at those ones. I know you've seen em. I see them all the time...and shockingly, whereas khat is male dominated, the sistas chug down almost more than the brothas. You all know thats a WAY bigger issue than Khat. Maybe its just more socially acceptable here. Budweiser's sexier than Kangeta, right? How about "Let's Save the next Generation from Weed and Alcohol" I'm sure thats more appealing than Khat.

Originally posted by marcassmith: Why are there are a lot of pro-khat people in this forum. I thought we all had a consensus that Khat was a social ill and one that should be banned if anything. I see a lot of people in the pro-khat campaign advocating that Khat be allowed to be consumed and continue to wreck havoc in the Somali society. If I, as a consenting adult, choose to engage in some recreational weekend munch-sessions, aren't you violating my free-will by trying to ban khat? If I'm a functioning member of society who occasionally enjoys unwinding with some miraa in the privacy of my own home, will you come to my door and arrest me? If we disregard the hopelessly gone sector who wouldn't be useful with or without khat, do we know any khat chewers who actually have jobs and raise families? I know a few. Besides, there's a deeper knowledge of the issue that I assume you are unaware of. How many sub-species of Khat are there? Did you know different types of khat have different effects of people? There's pro-khat people in this forum because you failed to provide a convincing presentation to ban khat. You kind sound like GWB and the whole WMD argument - "Its bad, you should already know this. and we have to do something about it now!"

Originally posted by Baashi: In the states it costs about $50 bucks per killo and folks who chew are overwhelmingly blue color who make less than $350 bucks -- do the math. Terrible addiction. ... Hit the dealer (make the trade a felony offence) and you would have taken care of the user side of equation without ruining their criminal record. Ummm, it already is a Felony to have Khat in the US...which is why it is $50 a kilo. Same thing in Canada where is $60-$80 a kilo. and like you said, broke people are still buying it. Not much of a solution.

Originally posted by LayZieGirl: YOu shouldn't be encouraging these folks, we should be putting our heads together to find ways to eliminate the rotten apple's, once and for all. Layzie, who gets to decide who's a rotten apple and who's not? and what form of elimination did you have in mind? and why do you constantly keep missing the points I try to make? Anyway, we're not the first ethnic community to face such problems and we won't be the last. Youth (and even middle aged folks)have been forced to adapt to foreign situations and thats what we're all facing...some will succeed, and some will fail. What we need is role model to show the fruits of success. To show what rewards lie at end of hard work and dedication. We should be trying to inspire people with our achievements and not reprimand them on failing a social test they didn't study for. Marc, Layzie, Why should a young Somali kid in London or Toronto or anywhere else want to be like you? what have you shown them for them to be motivated to want to change? Because when he/she looks out at his/her choices, its Chavs, euro-trash, gangstas and YOU. How about you show us why we should try. Tell us about the Youth who are running businesses or hold high positions in big organizations or are generally doing big things. Do you know any? are you one?

Originally posted by marcassmith: ... Rather applauding my courage to risk my life to talk about these controversial topics, all I get is abuse and insults.... MARC Hahahahaha... Easy there, Salman Rushdie. Whats the bounty on your head? 20 quid and bag of Khat? LOL. The lone voice of reason in a mad world. Originally posted by marcassmith: ....at least express yourselves in a calm and coherent manner, instead of shouting violent abuse. P.S : A.J, Take a chill pill. Ur either a Somali Chav or Euro-trash. MARC But name-callings fine right? I find it a little disturbing that you're seem to be ashamed of your origins - as evidenced by the name you choose to use, the language you choose to ignore (is Af Somali beneath you) and your constant need to pick and prod at every negative thing ever done by a Somali. You may think this just another rant against your opinions but let's be real - You have a serious Inferiority Complex. Have you ever heard of Cultural Cringe or Colonial Mentality? You are so convinced that Proper British or Western culture is vastly superior to your green-chewing, gangsta wannabe cousins that it's not enough for you to become what you see as superior but you must try and drag the rest of us to that so-called higher standard of being. And plus you now have bouts of Paranoia. Hiding your identity behind big shades and a phony name...and actually admitting that you feel you're risking your life to enlighten us. Now THAT is bizzare, ludicrous and borderline psychotic. If you feel your lifestyle is indeed the way to go, I suggest trying to lead by example... Show the less privileged how successful you can be and try to spotlight the members of our community who have excelled.

Originally posted by Ma'wa: ... You don't need a scientific proof or an expert to tell you how khad is destroying the lives of millions of people throughout the world. Millions? exaggerate much? ...and Yes, you do need Scientific proof and credible experts to show why it should be banned. Its exactly because of that kind of general statement that kills the credibility of any argument against khat. The questions are straight forward : WHY SHOULD WE BAN KHAT? CAN YOU PROVE ANY OF YOUR ALLEGATIONS?

Originally posted by marcassmith: ...I strong believe that Khat will be banned, but this is has been halted by the high levels of apathy of somali community leaders and so-called intelligensia who claim to have all the answers and yet sit there and do nothing (members of SOL). MARC I doubt khat will be banned for a very simple reason: There is no scientific proof to suggest that it is hazardous to health. In addition to that khat does not impair user to a degree that they become unaware for their activities. I'm personally against any proposal that would try to limit personal choice. Especially with no quantifiable statistics about its effects on the human body. This Gestapo mind-set about making decisions on something you haven't studied or researched or can't say with certainty is an evil. Guilty by association may be good enough for a mob. However, if you want to make a convincing presentation to the UK government or to any rational person, you're going to have to do a lot more than just point and say "Bad". Might be shocking for you to find out the loser spending all night at the marfish will still be a loser with no khat in his mouth after your ban.

Marc, I have entirely too many issues with this your take on this whole khat issue. The matter is extremely complicated and your argument for banning it entirely simplistic and highly ineffective. Firstly there's an issue of substance abuse. Khat isn't the first abused intoxicant. As a matter fact, if you were to create a list of abusable substances khat would neither be the best nor the worst. The issue in my opinion is the people using khat. removing khat from the equation WILL NOT resolve their addiction issues. Imposing a ban will not stop the Khat trade. have you seen the trade numbers? Kenya exports about $250 million of khat annually, beating out tea as one of the county's most lucrative exports, according to the Kenyan government. Dozens of flights leave Nairobi's two major airports every day, transporting burlap sacks filled with khat to Somalia in a trade that is worth about $300,000 a day, according to Kenya's National Agency for the Campaign Against Drug Abuse. Source So what does your plan to ban khat do? It creates a new powerful new criminal network... Heroin in Afghanistan, Cocaine in Columbia. The price of a marduuf sky-rockets and places a greater burden on households that are struggling to begin with. Then the same old guys will be sitting in the same old corners chewing the same old khat. Only this time, they'll be criminals. and since Somalis will the be major importers of your now illegal commodity, this will create a social stigma of Somalis being drug lords and addicts. “The path of least resistance makes all rivers, and some men, crooked.” Banning Khat is a the path of least resistance, the mind set of khat abusers is the challenge you should be focusing on. How do we educate the people and help them resolve their problem?

You know some serious threats were made by some people high up when the main man at ECK pulls a complete 180 and says "I Don't know if Kibaki won the election".... WTF????? Here's a question.... Democracy is a game of numbers, if the result is disputed and irregularities are present, why not just repeat the vote? Hey, Lets do it again. I heard in some parts of Kikuyu-land the dead came up to vote for Kibaki. 115% voter turn-out. LOL